caliph umar converts dumping ground into a "holy" site
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For some reason the jews & christians find jerusalem holy.
And for some reason, the sunnis & shiites find jerusalem "holy". But what is this reason?
The answer seems to lie in 171. Almost all popular sunni & shiite interpretations tell us that al-masjid al-aqsa is a location at jerusalem. A good reason to hold jerusalem "dearest of all to their hearts". Of course, nothing in the quraan even remotely suggests this.
A strawman argument. This is a Muslim forum, not a Sunni/Shia forum. I am sure most here believe 396-7 to be the important verse. I am happy to listen to your arguments, but they seem to consist of
- Insulting others
- Disproving Jerusalem through it's historical claim, but demonstrating no evidence for Mecca being the place of pilgrimage.
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belh-You sound ridicules; this is not about a boy fight, this is about God's religion; The Torah, Bible and Quran Confirm Jerusalem to be the place for pilgrim; I advice you to visit the two places, Macca and Jerusalem to witness with your eyes about the traces of the prophets, especially Abraham.
Here are some evidance from quran about the HOLY LAND
- I remarked previously that ur words were proving u to be a sad liar. & u are doing nothing to change this perception. I have repeatedly asked u to show me "jerusalem" in the quraan, & u have failed to do so.
As for the holy land, there is nothing holy about the history of jerusalem; whether or not anybody likes it.
Named after pagan deity http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598114.0
Graveyard of pigs & bones http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598018.0
-If you wish to disbelieve with the Quran it is your choice, but please do not ask us to do so.
Have your Deen and I have mine.By this time it is pretty clear which book ur allegiance lies with. Attempt at rhetoric doesnt help u.
Why don't u show the narration of abraham & ishmael building the bayt in ur holy books (the testaments). Surely, such an important event would merit a mention.
I have nothing to do with those who worship at graves, be they garves of humans, or of foxes & pigs. -)
Again, keep aside ur emotional attachment & bring evidence. If u consult the quraan rather than ur holy books, the ill-fate of the temple is clear (177).
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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roshan-It demonstrates class to call people who disagree with your opinion 'grave-worshippers'. I would say, so what to your article.
- Don't let prejudice flavor ur outlook. Take a look at his insinuations. Further, it is his belief that the bayt of God is over some unidentified tombs. If u want to worship at tombs, go ahead by all means.
-So, is your sequence of events (with regards to the 'temple mount' alledged location in Jerusalem)
nothing ---> rubbish dump --> place of veneration for Jews and Muslims?
Read properly.
-A strawman argument. This is a Muslim forum, not a Sunni/Shia forum. I am sure most here believe 396-7 to be the important verse. I am happy to listen to your arguments, but they seem to consist of
- Insulting others
- Disproving Jerusalem through it's historical claim, but demonstrating no evidence for Mecca being the place of pilgrimage.
While u do claim to be open to my posts, ur biased outburst tells otherwise.
As for insulting others, if u find the history of jerusalem insulting then why do u cling to it? It is a fact that it was named after a pagan deity. The destruction of the temple of jerusalem is a fact. & it is a fact that it has been found to be littered with the bones of pigs & foxes. If u don't like facts, it's okay; but don't label listing facts as insulting others.
That is the precise scenario, v know the history of jerusalem & u cannot fit muhammad there, no matter how hard u try. If u want, u can take a try at locating jerusalem in the quraan.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'alaameen
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Peace all
thegod, Obviously your brain were numbed by the Truth of God's verses that show the divinity of Torah and Injeel, and therefore, you couldn't comment.As for the holy land, there is nothing holy about the history of jerusalem; whether or not anybody likes it.
Named after pagan deity http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598114.0
Graveyard of pigs & bones http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598018.0
Will...your words VS verse 5-21...who should I believe? God or You...I hope your brain can stop numbing so you can realize your size.
Again, I'm done with you in this one...see in another thread. eat
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belh-Again, I'm done with you in this one...see in another thread.
Okay. Looks like u have still not located the construction of the bayt by abraham & ishmael in the bible. Hmm. I have to say ur holy book has missed out on a very important narration. And this makes ur book a very poor source for any muslim study. How then are u going to prove that 521 refers to "jerusalem," which is not even mentioned in the quraan?. -)
Further, the land where abraham & ishmael built the kaaba has been called "balad alamin". And because abraham & ishmael never built the kaaba according to the bible, finding this place in the bible is a logical impossibility.
On the other hand, v have the quraan talking about the annihilation of the temple, without ascribing any holiness to it, let alone the city it stood in. & v have the history of jerusalem testifying to its own sorry existence. Nor can I help bones of pigs & foxes being found there. How much evidence will u avoid? Including the fact that u cannot fit muhammad in the well-established history of jerusalem.
Last time around, u disappeared without showing the arabic "makam ibrahim" on those unidentified tombs. Are u going to follow suit? -)
I have a question for u If almasjid alharaam is in jerusalem, where is almasjid alaq'saa?
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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The destruction of the temple of jerusalem is a fact.
Peace
So you accept there was a temple in Jerusalem?
Beca is mentioned in the Psalms and is considered to Jerusalem, or very close to it (from my understanding). The description in that Psalm is also about a 'hajj'.
Yathrib is mentioned in the Quran (many thanks for providing me with a quote I was not aware of), but Medina is not (Mecca=Beca argument).In the Quran, the people of Mecca hindered the hajj. This does not mean that the hajj was near Mecca however.
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roshan-So you accept there was a temple in Jerusalem?
- Yes, this is what I have always implied. Also, the quraan mentions a temple which was destructed (177). Not mentioned is anything holy about it.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598114.0
-Beca is mentioned in the Psalms and is considered to Jerusalem, or very close to it (from my understanding). The description in that Psalm is also about a 'hajj'.
- I will reserve my comment on this for now.
What v know for a certainty from the quraan is that abraham & ishmael built the bayt at becca. What do u make of the complete asbence of abraham & ishmael building this bayt in the bible?
-Yathrib is mentioned in the Quran (many thanks for providing me with a quote I was not aware of), but Medina is not (Mecca=Beca argument).
- Medina is mentioned in the quraan. Among other verses, please refer to 9120.
-In the Quran, the people of Mecca hindered the hajj. This does not mean that the hajj was near Mecca however.
- If the hajj is farther north from medina, how then did the people of mecca, south of medina, hinder the hajj?
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Okay. Looks like u have still not located the construction of the bayt by abraham & ishmael in the bible.
God revealed stories in the Torah that are not in Quran; in other words, the three books complete each others; so if the story of Abraham in Quran says that Abraham STARTED the Building, But did not Complete, the same story does not need to be in Torah and Bible. Moreover, the three books are Divine Books According To God.
And as Abraham raised the foundations from the Dwelling with Ishmael ?Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.?
2127Moreover, the three books are Divine Books According To God...so if you disagree with God, then feel free but keep it to yourself.
Further, the land where abraham & ishmael built the kaaba has been called "balad alamin".
Agree...Now look for the place that Has the following Landmarks in order to identify the City of Peace
951 By the fig and the olive.
952 And the mount of Sineen.
953 And this town of peace.I have a question for u If almasjid alharaam is in jerusalem, where is almasjid alaq'saa?
I believe it is the One in Madina where Makam Prophet Mohamed.
- If the hajj is farther north from medina, how then did the people of mecca, south of medina, hinder the hajj?
Maybe because they did that
9107 And there are those who establish a temple to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars.
9108 Do not maintain in it ever. A temple that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you maintain in it; in it are men who love to be cleansed. And God loves the cleansed.
9109 Is one who lays his foundation on obtaining righteousness from God and His acceptance better, or one who lays his foundation on the edge of a cliff which is about to crumble, so that it crumbled with him into the fires of Hell? God does not guide the wicked people.
9110 Such a structure that they erect will continue to cause doubt in their hearts, until their hearts are severed. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
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belh-
- Expectedly, u cannot explain the absence of the narrative in the bible. The fact is that there are many "stories" common to the quraan & the bible; yet this important event has gone completely unmentioned in the book of jews & christians. Wonder then that the quraan tells the believers to not heed the rejectors (3100) who argue in vain(366)?
Now, that does explain the absence of the kaaba from that book, doesn't it?
-952 And the mount of Sineen.
- Never mind the admissibility of ur criteria, but the second of ur holy books tells us that sinai is in arabia.
But there is no ambiguity in the quraan regarding the temple which was destroyed. -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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- Never mind the admissibility of ur criteria, but the second of ur holy books tells us that sinai is in arabia.
Where are the Fig and Olive trees in Mecca? where is the Mount of Sineen in Mecca? Where is Makam Abraham in Mecca?
Where are the Traces of Prophets in Mecca? Where are the Seas and rivers in Mecca of Which Pilgrms can Fish from during Pilgrim?
Where is Baka in Mecca? Where are the history that show the Isreails control of Mecca Two times?Use your Brain and do not rely in the Footstep of your Fathers?
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belh-
- Why don't u follow the quraan rather than ur twisted books, so that u can understand what millat of abraham is? It will save u the embarrassment of upholding the custom of ur fathers. grin
This is the chag of ur calf-worshipping fathers
To the chief Musician upon Gittith, A Psalm of Asaph. Sing aloud unto God our strength make a joyful noise unto the God of Jacob.
Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery.
Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.
Do u howl on the full moon night? Or turn into a werewolf? yes
The fact that ur book does not talk about the bayt of abraham & ishmael means it is off ur list. Then, at which site do u worship on full moons - the graveyard of humans, or the graveyard of pigs & foxes? -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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belh-
By the way, u did not comment on ur holy book telling us that sinai is in arabia. Are u going to run away like before?
This is not going anywhere; Sini is attached to Jerusalem and too far from Mecca. Moreover, When reading the Injeel and Torah, distinguish between translation and original, and between Isa writings and Paul's.
Even thus, all speak about Jerusalem but non about Mecca.Have a nice day...we are done
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belh-;Sini is attached to Jerusalem and too far from Mecca. Moreover, When reading the Injeel and Torah, distinguish between translation and original, and between Isa writings and Paul's.
Even thus, all speak about Jerusalem but non about Mecca.- Arabia does not equal mecca. In a book of the new testament, paul tells us that sinai is in arabia. & jerusalem is not in arabia. -)
Jesus did not write anything.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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, and I am aware of their pain.
Vayomer Adonay ra'oh ra'iti et-oni ami asher beMitsrayim ve'et tsa'akatam shamati mipeney nogsav ki yadati et-mach'ovav.38 I have come down to rescue them from Egypt's power. I will bring them out of that land, to a good, spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, the territory of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Yebusites.
Va'ered lehatsilo miyad Mitsrayim uleha'aloto min-ha'arets hahi el-erets tovah urechavah el-erets zavat chalav udevash el-mekom haKna'ani vehaChiti veha'Emori vehaPrizi vehaChivi vehaYevusi.39 'Right now the cry of the Israelites is coming to Me. I also see the pressure to which Egypt is subjecting them.
Ve'atah hineh tsa'akat beney Yisra'el ba'ah elay vegam-ra'iti et-halachats asher Mitsrayim lochatsim otam.
310 Now go. I am sending you to Pharaoh. Bring My people, the Israelites, out of Egypt.'
Ve'atah lecha ve'eshlachacha el-Par'oh vehotse et-ami veney Yisra'el mi-Mitsrayim.311 'Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh?' said Moses to God. 'And how can I possibly get the Israelites out of Egypt?'
Vayomer Moshe el-ha'Elohim mi anochi ki elech el-Par'oh vechi otsi et-beney Yisra'el mi-Mitsrayim.
312 'Because I will be with you,' replied . 'Proof that I have sent you will come when you get the people out of Egypt. All of you will then become God's servants on this mountain.'
Vayomer ki eheyeh imach vezeh-lecha ha'ot ki anochi shlachticha behotsi'acha et-ha'am mi-Mitsrayim ta'avdun et-ha'Elohim al hahar hazeh.315 God then said to Moses, 'You must say to the Israelites, 'YHVH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, sent me to you.' This is My eternal name, and this is how I am to be recalled for all generations.
Vayomer od Elohim el-Moshe koh tomar el-beney Yisra'el Adonay Elohey avoteychem Elohey Avraham Elohey Yitschak ve'Elohey Ya'akov shlachani aleychem zeh-shemi le'olam vezeh zichri ledor dor.317 I declare that I will bring you out of the wretchedness of Egypt, to the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Yebusites - to a land flowing with milk and honey.' '
Va'omar a'aleh etchem me'oni Mitsrayim el-erets haKna'ani vehaChiti veha'Emori vehaPrizi vehaChivi vehaYevusi el-erets zavat chalav udvash.http//bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp?action=displaypage&book=2&chapter=3&verse=20&portion=13
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roshan-So you accept there was a temple in Jerusalem?
- Yes, this is what I have always implied. Also, the quraan mentions a temple which was destructed (177). Not mentioned is anything holy about it.
Fair enough. 'Al Haram' is not mentioned after 'masjid' in this verse.
-Beca is mentioned in the Psalms and is considered to Jerusalem, or very close to it (from my understanding). The description in that Psalm is also about a 'hajj'.
- I will reserve my comment on this for now.
Why be so mystical? This is a discussion, not a debate.
What v know for a certainty from the quraan is that abraham & ishmael built the bayt at becca. What do u make of the complete asbence of abraham & ishmael building this bayt in the bible?
I have not looked in depth at the Bible on this issue (of who built the bayt).
-Yathrib is mentioned in the Quran (many thanks for providing me with a quote I was not aware of), but Medina is not (Mecca=Beca argument).
- Medina is mentioned in the quraan. Among other verses, please refer to 9120.
The word medina is mentioned. However this means 'city'. This is, probably, another example of the sectarians making up names to justify their stories (e.g. masjid al aqsa, al arafat).
So again, you are left with the problem of two names for one place.
-In the Quran, the people of Mecca hindered the hajj. This does not mean that the hajj was near Mecca however.
- If the hajj is farther north from medina, how then did the people of mecca, south of medina, hinder the hajj?
Perhaps by organising military expeditions.
I also invite you to participate
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598116.0
Roshan