How many verses are there in the quran ?

almarh0m

Salamun alaykum

Someone from "Submitters Study Group" in my home town told me that the Total Number of Verses in The Qur'an is 6327 . When I asked him how he knew that , he told me that he counted them manually and it is also 333x19=6327 . Whether this is true or not , I am not sure but I just believe in all of the verses . ( this was about 5 years ago ) .

Peace

unknownuser

6236 <---- Total Verses in Qur'an

Value | Appears in Qur'an | Letter
1 ???.. 59090 ???..
2 ???.. 11492 ???..
3 ???.. 3317 ???..
4 ???.. 5990 ???..
5 ???.. 17241 ???..
6 ???.. 25589 ???..
7 ???.. 1599 ???..
8 ???.. 4141 ???..
9 ???.. 1274 ???..
10 ???.. 25734 ???..
20 ???.. 10497 ???..
30 ???.. 38191 ???..
40 ???.. 26733 ???..
50 ???.. 27270 ???..
60 ???.. 6015 ???..
70 ???.. 9406 ???..
80 ???.. 8747 ???..
90 ???.. 2072 ???..
100 ???.. 7034 ???..
200 ???.. 12407 ???..
300 ???.. 2124 ???..
400 ???.. 10469 ???..
500 ???.. 1414 ???..
600 ???.. 2497 ???..
700 ???.. 4934 ???..
800 ???.. 1686 ???..
900 ???.. 852 ???..
1000 ???.. 1222 ???..

5995 ???.. 329037 <----- Total Letters in Quran

5995 329037 is prime!
Also check out the even/odd and symmetry...

893
And/By the even and the odd

http//i43.tinypic.com/2ev9jxe.jpg
http//i43.tinypic.com/2100qaf.jpg

12791 is prime!

209029 is prime!

6236 12791 is prime!

6555 209029 is prime!

333667 (total sum all verses, 28+ 41041? + 8385? +21) is prime!

12791 + 209029 + 333667 = 555487 is prime!

http//www.usi.edu/science/math/prime.html

Peace,

bkanwar2

Peace, to all. This division of Quran in Suras and Ayas is a later happening, for purpose of referring to particular theme, in a big piece of written text. Hence it is okay for this purpose only and has no other significance. One has to realise that methods of writting were not as elaborate at that time.

Badar

herbman

Hi all,

dear Mr bkanwar2 please prove your saying, Suras and Ayas are clearly mentioned in Al Quran

eg sourat
Al-Baqara
At-Taubah
At-Taubah
At-Taubah
At-Taubah
Yunus
An-Noor
Muhammad

and Aya
Al-Baqara
Al-Baqara
An-Nahl
There are many more references to Ayat but you know Ayat can mean either Verse or Miracle or Sign depending on the sentence.

I do not say what we have today is the exact division of souras and verse but what I mean is the Quran is composed of these suras and verses as mentioned in the great reading and is not an invention.

Regards

bkanwar2

Dear Herbman Peace and profound regards. Linguistically, the claim that Alkitab was divided in Suras and Ayas doesn't hold up. If we consider Aya as verse, which means, literature in metrical form, usually in poetry. However, this does not apply to so to call Quranic verses or Aya. If we consider a verse equal to current sentence in present day prose, it does not hold up either. Let me elaborate by an example from Alkitab itself

23

24

Now, in poetry in metrical form, one neither starts next verse with "waa" meaning "and". Nor a sentence with "and" is considered two sentences. There are ample examples of this in great reading

As regards, it's division into Suras. We all know the most Suras have multiple names. Hence, this also could not be done and told by prophet as he did not add anything in Alkitab, except what he was told.

With regards, I am only talking about division of Alkitab, into Suras and Ayas. Nothing to do with, as to if these words are mentioned in Alkitab itself, or not. It is about interpertation of these words, to imply division.

Badar

jonny_k

Peace all,
"Eid" got it almost right. 6236 - 2(9128&129) = 6234 numbered verses + the 112 unnumbered BISMILLAHS which are ALSO VERSES = 6346 = 19 X 334 just as the no Bismillahs despite it's absence on sura 9 and the total no of suras in the Quran. POINT TO NOTE is that the table of symmetry youve shown ALSO WORKS without 9128&129. See http//www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=38 . Infact i believe this is the original finder and "Eid" copied it. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Peace,

Dear Herbman Peace and profound regards. Linguistically, the claim that Alkitab was divided in Suras and Ayas doesn't hold up. If we consider Aya as verse, which means, literature in metrical form, usually in poetry. However, this does not apply to so to call Quranic verses or Aya. If we consider a verse equal to current sentence in present day prose, it does not hold up either. Let me elaborate by an example from Alkitab itself

23

24

Now, in poetry in metrical form, one neither starts next verse with "waa" meaning "and". Nor a sentence with "and" is considered two sentences. There are ample examples of this in great reading

As regards, it's division into Suras. We all know the most Suras have multiple names. Hence, this also could not be done and told by prophet as he did not add anything in Alkitab, except what he was told.

With regards, I am only talking about division of Alkitab, into Suras and Ayas. Nothing to do with, as to if these words are mentioned in Alkitab itself, or not. It is about interpertation of these words, to imply division.

Badar

Peace,

Linguistics and grammar rule standards agreed upon by people do not apply to Qur?an. Starting a sentence with ?and? ( wa) in Qur?an there is no restriction and likewise the initialed letters make no sense; e.g.

21 Alif-lam-meem

Recited as three separate words, written with three letters or the numerous chapters which start with ?Say? or ?And? linguistically and grammatically break rules and multiple surah names their mention in Quran are evidence along with early manuscripts

http//portal.unesco.org/ci/photos/showphoto.php/photo/3448/size/big

"Eid" got it almost right. 6236 - 2(9128&129) = 6234 numbered verses + the 112 unnumbered BISMILLAHS which are ALSO VERSES = 6346 = 19 X 334 just as the no Bismillahs despite it's absence on sura 9 and the total no of suras in the Quran. POINT TO NOTE is that the table of symmetry youve shown ALSO WORKS without 9128&129. See http//www.quranmiracles.com/19/19read.asp?id=38 . Infact i believe this is the original finder and "Eid" copied it. GOD Bless!

Removing verses is a lie leading to hell fire and nineteen is to convince the naive/ignorant that 1 / 19 = 0.0526315789 of all things is a multiple. The even/odd ALSO WORKS when ANY even #of verses is moved/added/deleted within even/odd group and by doing so all prime totals (see above) are lost

1-57 http//i35.tinypic.com/atonwz.jpg

58-114 http//i35.tinypic.com/2cr4yev.jpg

60 even # verses 54 odd # verses
30 even-even 30 odd-even 27 odd-odd 27 even-odd

1752 1708 1698 1806 1551 1225 1554 1497 <----- Totals

1752+1708+1698+1806 = 6964
1551+1225+1554+1497 = 5827
12791 <---- is prime (see above)
6964 5827 is prime.

All that can be done to the above is rename chapters with equal #of verses (still under study).

jonny_k

Peace "eid",

Removing verses is a lie leading to hell fire and nineteen is to convince the naive/ignorant that 1 / 19 = 0.0526315789 of all things is a multiple. The even/odd ALSO WORKS when ANY even #of verses is moved/added/deleted within even/odd group and by doing so all prime totals (see above) are lost

1-57 http//i35.tinypic.com/atonwz.jpg

58-114 http//i35.tinypic.com/2cr4yev.jpg

60 even # verses 54 odd # verses
30 even-even 30 odd-even 27 odd-odd 27 even-odd

1752 1708 1698 1806 1551 1225 1554 1497 <----- Totals

1752+1708+1698+1806 = 6964
1551+1225+1554+1497 = 5827
12791 <---- is prime (see above)
6964 5827 is prime.

All that can be done to the above is rename chapters with equal #of verses (still under study).

JK- BUT there are more facts to be considered then just this table which works equally well without 9128&129 and those two verses stand out by many facts. Some of the most important being that the count of "allah" becomes 2699 and the term raheem, which is otherwise exclusively used for GOD in the Bismillah, the most significant phrase, is here used for Muhammad. FURTHERMORE we are not technically removing verses BUT ANALYSDING which verses are part of the Quran in the 1st place. Say that someone came up to you and said "Here this is quran take it" would that make it all Quran? It is very easy for someone to take a pen, include a few verses in what we know as quran, print that book and sell it off as quran. Should we accept those verses as Quranic EVEN IF they dont contradict the rest of the Quranic verses? THIS IS THE PROBLEM. How do you define what are Quranic verses and what arnt if not ultimetaly by a numerical structure? GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "Eid",
Let me also point out that those who ask of us to prove that certain verses, mainly 9128&129, are NOT from the Quran are comitting the fallacy of ASKING US TO PROVE A -VE. THEY have to prove to us that 9128&129 and any verses for that matter ARE part of the Quran in the 1st place. GOD Bless!

herbman

Dear Herbman Peace and profound regards. Linguistically, the claim that Alkitab was divided in Suras and Ayas doesn't hold up. If we consider Aya as verse, which means, literature in metrical form, usually in poetry. However, this does not apply to so to call Quranic verses or Aya. If we consider a verse equal to current sentence in present day prose, it does not hold up either. Let me elaborate by an example from Alkitab itself

23

24

Now, in poetry in metrical form, one neither starts next verse with "waa" meaning "and". Nor a sentence with "and" is considered two sentences. There are ample examples of this in great reading

As regards, it's division into Suras. We all know the most Suras have multiple names. Hence, this also could not be done and told by prophet as he did not add anything in Alkitab, except what he was told.

With regards, I am only talking about division of Alkitab, into Suras and Ayas. Nothing to do with, as to if these words are mentioned in Alkitab itself, or not. It is about interpertation of these words, to imply division.

Badar

Peace,

nobody has said an AYA (verse) = a sentence example has already been give e.g Alif lam mim, etc it is not a sentence
You say "if we consider Aya as verse, which means, literature in metrical form, usually in poetry"--> Quran says " " Yasin verse 69 "We did not teach him poetry..." Then do not try to make equivalence with poetry it just does not work
about this "As regards, it's division into Suras. We all know the most Suras have multiple names. Hence, this also could not be done and told by prophet as he did not add anything in Alkitab, except what he was told" I agree BUT what about sourate Noor v1
But I agree with you when saying it has no significance it just helps to reference AL Quran.

and I would like to ask everyone what do you think about this verse 1587

yusuf ali translation And We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Oft-Repeated and the Grand Qur'an

Do you think the seven often repeated are the verses from Al fatiha?

Thanks

bkanwar2

Thanks, Herbman for understanding the point. I have in past elaborated based on linguistic break down. The word AlKur'aan neither means, a proper name for Alkitab. Nor has any thing to do with intense reading or recitation. It means "the one I established".

Badar

kn

1587

We have given you several examples from history that repeats itself, and We have given you this Sublime Qur?an that defines the Laws of the rise and fall of nations.

Please review above, yet another rendition on ourbeacon.com. I have reviewed several renditions, but looking at the flow of this Sura, above was very sensible and appears correct.

unknownuser

Peace jonny,

JK- BUT there are more facts to be considered then just this table which works equally well without 9128&129 and those two verses stand out by many facts. Some of the most important being that the count of "allah" becomes 2699 and the term raheem, which is otherwise exclusively used for GOD in the Bismillah, the most significant phrase, is here used for Muhammad.

What exactly are you counting?

"Eid" got it almost right. 6236 - 2(9128&129) = 6234 numbered verses + the 112 unnumbered BISMILLAHS which are ALSO VERSES = 6346 = 19 X 334

Are you including BISMILLAHS or excluding BISMILLAHS?

AL-RaHMaN or LL-RaHMaN?

Al-Raheem (the Compassionate) or Raheem (Compassionate)?

What about alAAazeezi (the Mighty) as in?
365

In context -- Who is The Mighty The Compassionate?

http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=2310
Browse Word

FURTHERMORE we are not technically removing verses BUT ANALYSDING which verses are part of the Quran in the 1st place. Say that someone came up to you and said "Here this is quran take it" would that make it all Quran? It is very easy for someone to take a pen, include a few verses in what we know as quran, print that book and sell it off as quran. Should we accept those verses as Quranic EVEN IF they dont contradict the rest of the Quranic verses?

There is no contradiction (removing verses nullifies protection of the book) and raheem ?in context? -- always read in context, means simply as nice, caring...

9127 And when any chapter was descended, some of them looked to some, (and said) "Does from anyone see you?" Then they went away, God diverted their hearts, because they are a nation (that) do not understand.

9128 Now there has come to you a Messenger from among yourselves; grievous to him is your suffering; anxious is he over you, gentle to the believers, compassionate.

9129 So if they turn away say, ?God is enough for me. There is no god but He. In Him do I place my trust. He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne!?

THIS IS THE PROBLEM. How do you define what are Quranic verses and what arnt if not ultimetaly by a numerical structure? GOD Bless!

The math is only an even/odd peculiarity including my prime number theory which is nothing unless one can prove consistency throughout with each chapter and tie it to text prevent simple stuff like flipping Alif-lam-meem to Meem-alif-lam or flip whole chapters and verses around or add/delete text.

Most of the nineteen calculations are absurd, like adding numbers which are factorial combinations or clueless posts trying to tie in Fibonacci which has little to do with nineteen and other stuff proposed by the ignorant searching manipulating to make multiples or claiming to know the order of revelation for each chapter and other nonsense which pops into peoples? heads gives them a buzz every time they see a multiple proclaim themselves messengers prance about freaking out at anything nineteen calling it a miracle? lol

Let me also point out that those who ask of us to prove that certain verses, mainly 9128&129, are NOT from the Quran are comitting the fallacy of ASKING US TO PROVE A -VE. THEY have to prove to us that 9128&129 and any verses for that matter ARE part of the Quran in the 1st place. GOD Bless!

The book is there and those who believe see and know it.

21
22
23

Peace

jonny_k

Peace "eid",

Peace jonny,

What exactly are you counting?

Are you including BISMILLAHS or excluding BISMILLAHS?

JK- The unnumbered 112 Bismilahs are EXCLUDED FOR ALL WORDS IN THE BISM CONSISTENTLY.

AL-RaHMaN or LL-RaHMaN?

JK- "rahman" WITH ALL POSSIBLE PREFIXES and no pluural forms. if it had suffices like hum/kum etc those woudlnt be counted. Agan this method is aplied throughout and had been done so before RK.

Al-Raheem (the Compassionate) or Raheem (Compassionate)?

JK- Agian "raheem" with all prefixes and no plural forms. This would include "arrahem" "birrahem" "raheem" but not "ruhama" for example.

What about alAAazeezi (the Mighty) as in?
365

In context -- Who is The Mighty The Compassionate?

http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=2310
Browse Word

JK- Obviously in 365 GOD is the one from Whom came the revelation
362 And the Quran that is full of wisdom.
...
365 This revelation is from the Almighty, Most Merciful.

There is no contradiction (removing verses nullifies protection of the book) and raheem ?in context? -- always read in context, means simply as nice, caring...

JK- If IYU removing verses nullifies protection then that has already happened. There are thousands of copies of the Quran printed by submission.org which dont contain 9128&129.

9127 And when any chapter was descended, some of them looked to some, (and said) "Does from anyone see you?" Then they went away, God diverted their hearts, because they are a nation (that) do not understand.

9128 Now there has come to you a Messenger from among yourselves; grievous to him is your suffering; anxious is he over you, gentle to the believers, compassionate.

9129 So if they turn away say, ?God is enough for me. There is no god but He. In Him do I place my trust. He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne!?

The math is only an even/odd peculiarity including my prime number theory which is nothing unless one can prove consistency throughout with each chapter and tie it to text prevent simple stuff like flipping Alif-lam-meem to Meem-alif-lam or flip whole chapters and verses around or add/delete text.

Most of the nineteen calculations are absurd, like adding numbers which are factorial combinations or clueless posts trying to tie in Fibonacci which has little to do with nineteen and other stuff proposed by the ignorant searching manipulating to make multiples or claiming to know the order of revelation for each chapter and other nonsense which pops into peoples? heads gives them a buzz every time they see a multiple proclaim themselves messengers prance about freaking out at anything nineteen calling it a miracle? lol

The book is there and those who believe see and know it.

21
22
23

Peace

JK- Ofcourse theres always alot of glass but that shouldn block one form seeing the diamonds. The counts of the words in the Bismillah are 1) done by a consistent method 2) Abdul Baqi came to a similar count 50 yrts before RK and 3) COINCEIDENTALLY??! the GVs of four other attributes of GOD in the Quran MATCHED EXACTLY the counts of the four words in the Bismillah e.g. "zul fadlil azeem" GV = 2698 which equals exctly to RK's count of "allah" though RK never knew about the GV which was discovered later. How likely is it that youll find an attribute in the Quran whose GV >2000. Unlikely aint it? Now how unlikely is it that itd be exactly 2698?? Extremely unlikely but yet it happened. Same goes for the other three words. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "Eid",
Regarding "al-azeez" you probably meant that that attribute is used for other than GOD in the Quran so why cant "arraheem"? BUT that was never my argument. Ofcourse CERTAIN attributes used for GOD can also apply to humans BUT "RAHMAN", "RAHEEM" and "ALLAH" ARE NOT AMONGST THEM. Thats why theyr in the first and most significant phrase which exclusively invokes GOD Alone. It makes no sense that any of THOSE attributes be used for any other besides GOD. Actually the example of "al-azeez" also strengthens my point against those who try to claim "well ar-raheem cant be used for any other than GOD but raheem can". If true then also only "azeez" should be used for humans too and not "al-azeez" BUT it is used for the king in Joseph's account in the Quran. I hope you understood it. GOD Bless!

herbman

Peace all,

Dera Kn where you get Bidha? from???? Please clarify.

unknownuser

Peace jonny,

JK- The unnumbered 112 Bismilahs are EXCLUDED FOR ALL WORDS IN THE BISM CONSISTENTLY.

JK- "rahman" WITH ALL POSSIBLE PREFIXES and no pluural forms. if it had suffices like hum/kum etc those woudlnt be counted. Agan this method is aplied throughout and had been done so before RK.

JK- Agian "raheem" with all prefixes and no plural forms. This would include "arrahem" "birrahem" "raheem" but not "ruhama" for example.

Why, are not those 112 verses part of Quran as you stated prior? NOT nineteen multiple if NOT EXCLUDED. Then they remove verses to make multiples based on nonsense weak hadith at that.

Then INCLUDED when counting initials; perhaps highlight which are CONSISTENTLY multiple?

No Ch Initials
1 2 ALM
2 3 ALM
3 7 ALMS
4 10 ALR
5 11 ALR
6 12 ALR
7 13 ALMR
8 14 ALR
9 15 ALR
10 19 KHYAS
11 20 TH
12 26 TSM
13 27 TS
14 28 TSM
15 29 ALM
16 30 ALM
17 31 ALM
18 32 ALM
19 36 YS
20 38 S
21 40 HM
22 41 HM
23 42 HMASQ
24 43 HM
25 44 HM
26 45 HM
27 46 HM
28 50 Q
29 68 N

JK- Obviously in 365 GOD is the one from Whom came the revelation
362 And the Quran that is full of wisdom.
...
365 This revelation is from the Almighty, Most Merciful.

Obviously also used for people depending on context

1230

1251

1278

1288

JK- If IYU removing verses nullifies protection then that has already happened. There are thousands of copies of the Quran printed by submission.org which dont contain 9128&129.

Yes, direct willful disobedience per recommendation of their idol and bad manipulative math.

JK- Ofcourse theres always alot of glass but that shouldn block one form seeing the diamonds. The counts of the words in the Bismillah are 1) done by a consistent method

False -- they removed verses, the first word only appears 3 times not nineteen, etc.

Abdul Baqi came to a similar count 50 yrts before RK
3) COINCEIDENTALLY??!

So what, anyone can now easily varify counts with browser simple search tool and if one looks for all things nineteen they'll find on average 5% hits, whoopee do.

Already did this on a 114 chapter book with #of verses chosen at random...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597403.msg196912#msg196912

the GVs of four other attributes of GOD in the Quran MATCHED EXACTLY the counts of the four words in the Bismillah e.g. "zul fadlil azeem" GV = 2698 which equals exctly to RK's count of "allah" though RK never knew about the GV which was discovered later. How likely is it that youll find an attribute in the Quran whose GV >2000. Unlikely aint it? Now how unlikely is it that itd be exactly 2698?? Extremely unlikely but yet it happened. Same goes for the other three words.

What? You have to be kidding, with 28 letters the combinations gv = 2698 are astronomical.

28 factorial = 3.04888345^1029

You know there are only 10^50 electrons in the known universe, and we already discussed this in another thread the larger the number the greater the probability.

Here, start combining letters see how many combinations with gv = 2698...lol

6236 <---- Total Verses in Qur'an

Value | Appears in Qur'an | Letter
1 ???.. 59090 ???..
2 ???.. 11492 ???..
3 ???.. 3317 ???..
4 ???.. 5990 ???..
5 ???.. 17241 ???..
6 ???.. 25589 ???..
7 ???.. 1599 ???..
8 ???.. 4141 ???..
9 ???.. 1274 ???..
10 ???.. 25734 ???..
20 ???.. 10497 ???..
30 ???.. 38191 ???..
40 ???.. 26733 ???..
50 ???.. 27270 ???..
60 ???.. 6015 ???..
70 ???.. 9406 ???..
80 ???.. 8747 ???..
90 ???.. 2072 ???..
100 ???.. 7034 ???..
200 ???.. 12407 ???..
300 ???.. 2124 ???..
400 ???.. 10469 ???..
500 ???.. 1414 ???..
600 ???.. 2497 ???..
700 ???.. 4934 ???..
800 ???.. 1686 ???..
900 ???.. 852 ???..
1000 ???.. 1222 ???..

5995 ???.. 329037 <----- Total Letters in Quran

5995 329037 is prime!

By the way, # of alif in the entire Qur'an with ALL 6236 verses = 59090 / 19 = 3110!

Which means very little other than only that and check out this miracle...lol

ch|verses|ch+v

178
2286288
3200203
4176180
5120125
6165171
7206213
87583
9129138
10109119
11123134
12111123
134356
145266
1599114
16128144
17111128
18110128
1998117
20135155
21112133
2278100
23118141
246488
2577102
26227253
2793120
2888116
296998
306090
313465
323062
3373106
345488
354580
3683119
37182219
3888126
3975114
4085125
415495
425395
4389132
4459103
453782
463581
473885
482977
491867
504595
5160111
5249101
5362115
5455109
5578133
5696152
572986
582280
592483
601373
611475
621173
631174
641882
651277
661278
673097
6852120
6952121
7044114
712899
7228100
732093
7456130
7540115
7631107
7750127
7840118
7946125
8042122
8129110
8219101
8336119
8425109
8522107
8617103
8719106
8826114
8930119
9020110
9115106
9221113
9311104
948102
958103
9619115
975102
988106
998107
10011111
10111112
1028110
1033106
1049113
1055110
1064110
1077114
1083111
1096115
1103113
1115116
1124116
1135118
1146120

583180861 <---- Total is prime!

jonny_k

Peace "eid",

Peace jonny,

Why, are not those 112 verses part of Quran as you stated prior? NOT nineteen multiple if NOT EXCLUDED. Then they remove verses to make multiples based on nonsense weak hadith at that.

JK- Those 112 verses are part of the Quran BUT they are UNNUMBERED. GOD apparently showed this via His numerical structure. This is exactly why when we count the initials we INCLUDE THOSE BISMILLAH LETTERS CONSISTENTLY.

Then INCLUDED when counting initials; perhaps highlight which are CONSISTENTLY multiple?

No Ch Initials
1 2 ALM
2 3 ALM
3 7 ALMS
4 10 ALR
5 11 ALR
6 12 ALR
7 13 ALMR
8 14 ALR
9 15 ALR
10 19 KHYAS
11 20 TH
12 26 TSM
13 27 TS
14 28 TSM
15 29 ALM
16 30 ALM
17 31 ALM
18 32 ALM
19 36 YS
20 38 S
21 40 HM
22 41 HM
23 42 HMASQ
24 43 HM
25 44 HM
26 45 HM
27 46 HM
28 50 Q
29 68 N

JK- There is still problems with initial counts that have "alif" as initials. BUT the initial counts have shown an overall significant result. Here are the details
http//19.org/index.php?id=26,62,0,0,1,0

Obviously also used for people depending on context

1230

1251

1278

1288

JK- Ive explained this in my second post to you.

Yes, direct willful disobedience per recommendation of their idol and bad manipulative math.

JK- BUT you havnt answered my assertion. You claimed that removing verses would violate protection claimed by GOD. Meaning your claiming that no one should be able to remove verses or how do you understand that? So if there are two or more books in the world bith claiming to be Quran and one having less verses than the other HOW WOULD YOU TELL WHICH ONE IS THE TRUE QURAN? Can you answer that please?

False -- they removed verses, the first word only appears 3 times not nineteen, etc.

JK- "ism" is an exception i must admit. And yes for any exception there must be good justification and there is in this case. Please see
http//submission.org/miracle/miracle19x.html
Hence only "ism(alif sin miim)" is counted and that occurs 19 times. ALSO there is one additional attribute of GOD, namely, shaheed,, that occurs exatly 19 times.

So what, anyone can now easily varify counts with browser simple search tool and if one looks for all things nineteen they'll find on average 5% hits, whoopee do.

Already did this on a 114 chapter book with #of verses chosen at random...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597403.msg196912#msg196912

JK- Again this shows your probably not aware of RKs work. Otherwise you would have known that he recounted each word for himself later on and did not rely on a previous index. Thats how he came up with 2699 words "allah" in the mushaf later whilst Baqi was stating 2698. Initially RK also counted 2698 BOTH RK AND BAQI making a different mistake by exluding a term "allah" in a different verse. Bro Edip Yuksel whos been working together side by side with Edip can attest to all of this. Then finally RK conlusded the extra "allah" was tht of 9129.

What? You have to be kidding, with 28 letters the combinations gv = 2698 are astronomical.

28 factorial = 3.04888345^1029

You know there are only 10^50 electrons in the known universe, and we already discussed this in another thread the larger the number the greater the probability.

Here, start combining letters see how many combinations with gv = 2698...lol

JK- WAIT. STOP RIGHT HERE. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT RANDOM COMBINATIONS OF LETTERS. THE TERMS MUST BE WORDS THAT EXIST IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGE. I thought that was clear but apparently not. Gibberish doesnt count otherwise ofcourse it would be non significant. MOREOVER the terms need to be ATTRIBUTES. So again HOW MANY ARABIC ATTRIBUTES HAVE GVS EQUAL 2698? Not many BECAUSE MOST NON GIBBERISH REAL ARABIC WORDS HAVE GVS LESS THAN 2000. That was my point.

By the way, # of alif in the entire Qur'an with ALL 6236 verses = 59090 / 19 = 3110!

Which means very little other than only that and check out this miracle...lol

ch|verses|ch+v

178
2286288
3200203
4176180
5120125
6165171
7206213
87583
9129138
10109119
11123134
12111123
134356
145266
1599114
16128144
17111128
18110128
1998117
20135155
21112133
2278100
23118141
246488
2577102
26227253
2793120
2888116
296998
306090
313465
323062
3373106
345488
354580
3683119
37182219
3888126
3975114
4085125
415495
425395
4389132
4459103
453782
463581
473885
482977
491867
504595
5160111
5249101
5362115
5455109
5578133
5696152
572986
582280
592483
601373
611475
621173
631174
641882
651277
661278
673097
6852120
6952121
7044114
712899
7228100
732093
7456130
7540115
7631107
7750127
7840118
7946125
8042122
8129110
8219101
8336119
8425109
8522107
8617103
8719106
8826114
8930119
9020110
9115106
9221113
9311104
948102
958103
9619115
975102
988106
998107
10011111
10111112
1028110
1033106
1049113
1055110
1064110
1077114
1083111
1096115
1103113
1115116
1124116
1135118
1146120

583180861 <---- Total is prime!

JK- Your forgetting that the alif counts are the most disputed even now. We dont even know for sure yet if RKs counts of "alif, laam , miim" etc are correct because of this very problem of identifying alif. Apparently you were not aware of this either. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Peace jonny,

JK- Those 112 verses are part of the Quran BUT they are UNNUMBERED. GOD apparently showed this via His numerical structure. This is exactly why when we count the initials we INCLUDE THOSE BISMILLAH LETTERS CONSISTENTLY.

Pure conjecture to MAKE IT multiple, Qur?an states otherwise.
Likewise, to delete 9128-129 is pure conjecture to MAKE IT multiple.

JK- There is still problems with initial counts that have "alif" as initials. BUT the initial counts have shown an overall significant result. Here are the details
http//19.org/index.php?id=26,62,0,0,1,0

Insignificant, inconsistent work done by the clueless presented in a shroud.

I simply asked which are consistently multiple in their chapters? Here, lets verify per 1736...

No....Ch Initials ..............................................Total...Total / 19

1......2....ALM??.4704....3205...2196...............10105...531.8421053
2......3....ALM??.2662....1896...1249.................5807...305.6315789
3......7....ALMS?.2648....1531...1164....97..........5440...286.3157895
4.....10....ALR??1356....916....257....................2529...133.1052632
5.....11....ALR??1418....797....325....................2540...133.6842105
6.....12....ALR??1375....812....257....................2444...128.6315789
7.....13....ALMR?..627....482....260....137...........1506....79.26315789
8.....14....ALR......618....453....160.....................1231....64.78947368
9.....15....ALR......525....324.....96.......................945....49.73684211
10....19....KHYAS..137....175....334....117....26.....789....41.52631579
11....20....TH........28....251................................279....14.68421053
12....26....TSM......33....94.....484........................611....32.15789474
13....27....TS........27....94..................................121.....6.368421053
14....28....TSM......19....102....460.......................581....30.57894737
15....29....ALM.....814....554....344.....................1712....90.10526316
16....30....ALM?...317....395....317.....................1029....54.15789474
17....31....ALM.....389....300....173.......................862....45.36842105
18....32....ALM.....279....155....158.......................592....31.15789474
19....36....YS........231....48.................................279....14.68421053
20....38....S..........29...........................................29.....1.526315789
21....40....HM........64....380................................444....23.36842105
22....41....HM........48....276................................324....17.05263158
23....42....HMAySQ.53....300.....98.....54....57........562....29.57894737
24....43....HM........44....324.................................368....19.36842105
25....44....HM........16....150..................................166.....8.736842105
26....45....HM........31....200..................................231....12.15789474
27....46....HM........36....225..................................261....13.73684211
28....50....Q..........57..........................................57......3
29....68....N.........132...........................................132.....6.947368421

How embarrassing -- ONLY one chapter is multiple out of 29 = 0.0344827586 or 3.4%!

Perhaps check the above counts and tell us if they are incorrect or show how to manipulate.

JK- BUT you havnt answered my assertion. You claimed that removing verses would violate protection claimed by GOD. Meaning your claiming that no one should be able to remove verses or how do you understand that? So if there are two or more books in the world bith claiming to be Quran and one having less verses than the other HOW WOULD YOU TELL WHICH ONE IS THE TRUE QURAN? Can you answer that please?

God says the book is protected and the believers know this; you on the other hand believe in all things nineteen, therefore the burden of proof is on you so show us what happens if this simple verse is deleted...

21 Alif Lam Mim or flipped to Lam Alif Mim

JK- "ism" is an exception i must admit. And yes for any exception there must be good justification and there is in this case. Please see
http//submission.org/miracle/miracle19x.html

Feel free to reply to this thread.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597644.msg190391#msg190391

JK- Again this shows your probably not aware of RKs work.

Everything that I've read is a waste of time; mostly ignorant and absurd.

I know exactly what was done to manipulate the count.

JK- WAIT. STOP RIGHT HERE. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT RANDOM COMBINATIONS OF LETTERS. THE TERMS MUST BE WORDS THAT EXIST IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGE. I thought that was clear but apparently not. Gibberish doesnt count otherwise ofcourse it would be non significant. MOREOVER the terms need to be ATTRIBUTES. So again HOW MANY ARABIC ATTRIBUTES HAVE GVS EQUAL 2698? Not many BECAUSE MOST NON GIBBERISH REAL ARABIC WORDS HAVE GVS LESS THAN 2000. That was my point.

Do you know how big 28 factorial = 3.04888345^1029 is?

That's all the electrons in 200 universes! lol I can't believe this discussion.

JK- Your forgetting that the alif counts are the most disputed even now. We dont even know for sure yet if RKs counts of "alif, laam , miim" etc are correct because of this very problem of identifying alif. Apparently you were not aware of this either. GOD Bless!

That is where it all started and now back to nowhere.

Peace

jonny_k

Peace "eid",

Peace jonny,

Pure conjecture to MAKE IT multiple, Qur?an states otherwise.
Likewise, to delete 9128-129 is pure conjecture to MAKE IT multiple.

Insignificant, inconsistent work done by the clueless presented in a shroud.

I simply asked which are consistently multiple in their chapters? Here, lets verify per 1736...

No....Ch Initials ..............................................Total...Total / 19

1......2....ALM??.4704....3205...2196...............10105...531.8421053
2......3....ALM??.2662....1896...1249.................5807...305.6315789
3......7....ALMS?.2648....1531...1164....97..........5440...286.3157895
4.....10....ALR??1356....916....257....................2529...133.1052632
5.....11....ALR??1418....797....325....................2540...133.6842105
6.....12....ALR??1375....812....257....................2444...128.6315789
7.....13....ALMR?..627....482....260....137...........1506....79.26315789
8.....14....ALR......618....453....160.....................1231....64.78947368
9.....15....ALR......525....324.....96.......................945....49.73684211
10....19....KHYAS..137....175....334....117....26.....789....41.52631579
11....20....TH........28....251................................279....14.68421053
12....26....TSM......33....94.....484........................611....32.15789474
13....27....TS........27....94..................................121.....6.368421053
14....28....TSM......19....102....460.......................581....30.57894737
15....29....ALM.....814....554....344.....................1712....90.10526316
16....30....ALM?...317....395....317.....................1029....54.15789474
17....31....ALM.....389....300....173.......................862....45.36842105
18....32....ALM.....279....155....158.......................592....31.15789474
19....36....YS........231....48.................................279....14.68421053
20....38....S..........29...........................................29.....1.526315789
21....40....HM........64....380................................444....23.36842105
22....41....HM........48....276................................324....17.05263158
23....42....HMAySQ.53....300.....98.....54....57........562....29.57894737
24....43....HM........44....324.................................368....19.36842105
25....44....HM........16....150..................................166.....8.736842105
26....45....HM........31....200..................................231....12.15789474
27....46....HM........36....225..................................261....13.73684211
28....50....Q..........57..........................................57......3
29....68....N.........132...........................................132.....6.947368421

How embarrassing -- ONLY one chapter is multiple out of 29 = 0.0344827586 or 3.4%!

Perhaps check the above counts and tell us if they are incorrect or show how to manipulate.

JK- Why is it insignificant? Dont you see a comparison has been done by dividing with ther nos and 19 CLEARLY STANDS OUT? How can tht be insignificant? ALSO would you say that just the initial "qaf" occuring exactly 57 times in each of the suras which have the initial "qaf" in them, although one sura is almost TWICE AS LONG as the other, is insignificant too?

God says the book is protected and the believers know this; you on the other hand believe in all things nineteen, therefore the burden of proof is on you so show us what happens if this simple verse is deleted...

21 Alif Lam Mim or flipped to Lam Alif Mim

JK- How do they know? How would they even know that this very statement itself is actually part of the Quran and thus from GOD? This is what you havnt told me yet. Hence youve not yet provided +ve evidence and your insiting for us to prove a -ve. This is a seriosuly fallacy. Regarding the flipping of alif lam meem sure one can but nobody is saying the findings are complete as of now. We'll have to see why that particular order in the future GW or whether it might need to be flipped which is unlikely though since all chapters have the same order.

Feel free to reply to this thread.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597644.msg190391#msg190391

JK- I will when i have time.

Everything that I've read is a waste of time; mostly ignorant and absurd.

JK- This is not an argument. Anyone can make this claim. You need to explain how.

I know exactly what was done to manipulate the count.

JK- Then you should point out the flaw in each individual point i made.

Do you know how big 28 factorial = 3.04888345^1029 is?

That's all the electrons in 200 universes! lol I can't believe this discussion.

That is where it all started and now back to nowhere.

Peace

JK- Again your not addressing the issue. There are not 3.xx^1029 words in the Arabic MUCH LESS ATTRIBUTES. Now please tell me how many attributes in Arabic are there approximately and how many of those have GVs=2698? That is the pt. GOD Bless!