How many verses are there in the quran ?
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Dear Herbman Peace and profound regards. Linguistically, the claim that Alkitab was divided in Suras and Ayas doesn't hold up. If we consider Aya as verse, which means, literature in metrical form, usually in poetry. However, this does not apply to so to call Quranic verses or Aya. If we consider a verse equal to current sentence in present day prose, it does not hold up either. Let me elaborate by an example from Alkitab itself
23
24
Now, in poetry in metrical form, one neither starts next verse with "waa" meaning "and". Nor a sentence with "and" is considered two sentences. There are ample examples of this in great reading
As regards, it's division into Suras. We all know the most Suras have multiple names. Hence, this also could not be done and told by prophet as he did not add anything in Alkitab, except what he was told.
With regards, I am only talking about division of Alkitab, into Suras and Ayas. Nothing to do with, as to if these words are mentioned in Alkitab itself, or not. It is about interpertation of these words, to imply division.
Badar
Peace,
- nobody has said an AYA (verse) = a sentence example has already been give e.g Alif lam mim, etc it is not a sentence
- You say "if we consider Aya as verse, which means, literature in metrical form, usually in poetry"--> Quran says " " Yasin verse 69 "We did not teach him poetry..." Then do not try to make equivalence with poetry it just does not work
- about this "As regards, it's division into Suras. We all know the most Suras have multiple names. Hence, this also could not be done and told by prophet as he did not add anything in Alkitab, except what he was told" I agree BUT what about sourate Noor v1
- But I agree with you when saying it has no significance it just helps to reference AL Quran.
and I would like to ask everyone what do you think about this verse 1587
yusuf ali translation And We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Oft-Repeated and the Grand Qur'an
Do you think the seven often repeated are the verses from Al fatiha?
Thanks
-
Thanks, Herbman for understanding the point. I have in past elaborated based on linguistic break down. The word AlKur'aan neither means, a proper name for Alkitab. Nor has any thing to do with intense reading or recitation. It means "the one I established".
Badar
-
1587
We have given you several examples from history that repeats itself, and We have given you this Sublime Qur?an that defines the Laws of the rise and fall of nations.
Please review above, yet another rendition on ourbeacon.com. I have reviewed several renditions, but looking at the flow of this Sura, above was very sensible and appears correct.
-
Peace jonny,
JK- BUT there are more facts to be considered then just this table which works equally well without 9128&129 and those two verses stand out by many facts. Some of the most important being that the count of "allah" becomes 2699 and the term raheem, which is otherwise exclusively used for GOD in the Bismillah, the most significant phrase, is here used for Muhammad.
What exactly are you counting?
"Eid" got it almost right. 6236 - 2(9128&129) = 6234 numbered verses + the 112 unnumbered BISMILLAHS which are ALSO VERSES = 6346 = 19 X 334
Are you including BISMILLAHS or excluding BISMILLAHS?
AL-RaHMaN or LL-RaHMaN?
Al-Raheem (the Compassionate) or Raheem (Compassionate)?
What about alAAazeezi (the Mighty) as in?
365In context -- Who is The Mighty The Compassionate?
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=2310
Browse WordFURTHERMORE we are not technically removing verses BUT ANALYSDING which verses are part of the Quran in the 1st place. Say that someone came up to you and said "Here this is quran take it" would that make it all Quran? It is very easy for someone to take a pen, include a few verses in what we know as quran, print that book and sell it off as quran. Should we accept those verses as Quranic EVEN IF they dont contradict the rest of the Quranic verses?
There is no contradiction (removing verses nullifies protection of the book) and raheem ?in context? -- always read in context, means simply as nice, caring...
9127 And when any chapter was descended, some of them looked to some, (and said) "Does from anyone see you?" Then they went away, God diverted their hearts, because they are a nation (that) do not understand.
9128 Now there has come to you a Messenger from among yourselves; grievous to him is your suffering; anxious is he over you, gentle to the believers, compassionate.
9129 So if they turn away say, ?God is enough for me. There is no god but He. In Him do I place my trust. He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne!?
THIS IS THE PROBLEM. How do you define what are Quranic verses and what arnt if not ultimetaly by a numerical structure? GOD Bless!
The math is only an even/odd peculiarity including my prime number theory which is nothing unless one can prove consistency throughout with each chapter and tie it to text prevent simple stuff like flipping Alif-lam-meem to Meem-alif-lam or flip whole chapters and verses around or add/delete text.
Most of the nineteen calculations are absurd, like adding numbers which are factorial combinations or clueless posts trying to tie in Fibonacci which has little to do with nineteen and other stuff proposed by the ignorant searching manipulating to make multiples or claiming to know the order of revelation for each chapter and other nonsense which pops into peoples? heads gives them a buzz every time they see a multiple proclaim themselves messengers prance about freaking out at anything nineteen calling it a miracle? lol
Let me also point out that those who ask of us to prove that certain verses, mainly 9128&129, are NOT from the Quran are comitting the fallacy of ASKING US TO PROVE A -VE. THEY have to prove to us that 9128&129 and any verses for that matter ARE part of the Quran in the 1st place. GOD Bless!
The book is there and those who believe see and know it.
21
22
23Peace
-
Peace "eid",
Peace jonny,
What exactly are you counting?
Are you including BISMILLAHS or excluding BISMILLAHS?
JK- The unnumbered 112 Bismilahs are EXCLUDED FOR ALL WORDS IN THE BISM CONSISTENTLY.
AL-RaHMaN or LL-RaHMaN?
JK- "rahman" WITH ALL POSSIBLE PREFIXES and no pluural forms. if it had suffices like hum/kum etc those woudlnt be counted. Agan this method is aplied throughout and had been done so before RK.
Al-Raheem (the Compassionate) or Raheem (Compassionate)?
JK- Agian "raheem" with all prefixes and no plural forms. This would include "arrahem" "birrahem" "raheem" but not "ruhama" for example.
What about alAAazeezi (the Mighty) as in?
365In context -- Who is The Mighty The Compassionate?
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=2310
Browse WordJK- Obviously in 365 GOD is the one from Whom came the revelation
362 And the Quran that is full of wisdom.
...
365 This revelation is from the Almighty, Most Merciful.There is no contradiction (removing verses nullifies protection of the book) and raheem ?in context? -- always read in context, means simply as nice, caring...
JK- If IYU removing verses nullifies protection then that has already happened. There are thousands of copies of the Quran printed by submission.org which dont contain 9128&129.
9127 And when any chapter was descended, some of them looked to some, (and said) "Does from anyone see you?" Then they went away, God diverted their hearts, because they are a nation (that) do not understand.
9128 Now there has come to you a Messenger from among yourselves; grievous to him is your suffering; anxious is he over you, gentle to the believers, compassionate.
9129 So if they turn away say, ?God is enough for me. There is no god but He. In Him do I place my trust. He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne!?
The math is only an even/odd peculiarity including my prime number theory which is nothing unless one can prove consistency throughout with each chapter and tie it to text prevent simple stuff like flipping Alif-lam-meem to Meem-alif-lam or flip whole chapters and verses around or add/delete text.
Most of the nineteen calculations are absurd, like adding numbers which are factorial combinations or clueless posts trying to tie in Fibonacci which has little to do with nineteen and other stuff proposed by the ignorant searching manipulating to make multiples or claiming to know the order of revelation for each chapter and other nonsense which pops into peoples? heads gives them a buzz every time they see a multiple proclaim themselves messengers prance about freaking out at anything nineteen calling it a miracle? lol
The book is there and those who believe see and know it.
21
22
23Peace
JK- Ofcourse theres always alot of glass but that shouldn block one form seeing the diamonds. The counts of the words in the Bismillah are 1) done by a consistent method 2) Abdul Baqi came to a similar count 50 yrts before RK and 3) COINCEIDENTALLY??! the GVs of four other attributes of GOD in the Quran MATCHED EXACTLY the counts of the four words in the Bismillah e.g. "zul fadlil azeem" GV = 2698 which equals exctly to RK's count of "allah" though RK never knew about the GV which was discovered later. How likely is it that youll find an attribute in the Quran whose GV >2000. Unlikely aint it? Now how unlikely is it that itd be exactly 2698?? Extremely unlikely but yet it happened. Same goes for the other three words. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Eid",
Regarding "al-azeez" you probably meant that that attribute is used for other than GOD in the Quran so why cant "arraheem"? BUT that was never my argument. Ofcourse CERTAIN attributes used for GOD can also apply to humans BUT "RAHMAN", "RAHEEM" and "ALLAH" ARE NOT AMONGST THEM. Thats why theyr in the first and most significant phrase which exclusively invokes GOD Alone. It makes no sense that any of THOSE attributes be used for any other besides GOD. Actually the example of "al-azeez" also strengthens my point against those who try to claim "well ar-raheem cant be used for any other than GOD but raheem can". If true then also only "azeez" should be used for humans too and not "al-azeez" BUT it is used for the king in Joseph's account in the Quran. I hope you understood it. GOD Bless! -
Peace jonny,
JK- The unnumbered 112 Bismilahs are EXCLUDED FOR ALL WORDS IN THE BISM CONSISTENTLY.
JK- "rahman" WITH ALL POSSIBLE PREFIXES and no pluural forms. if it had suffices like hum/kum etc those woudlnt be counted. Agan this method is aplied throughout and had been done so before RK.
JK- Agian "raheem" with all prefixes and no plural forms. This would include "arrahem" "birrahem" "raheem" but not "ruhama" for example.
Why, are not those 112 verses part of Quran as you stated prior? NOT nineteen multiple if NOT EXCLUDED. Then they remove verses to make multiples based on nonsense weak hadith at that.
Then INCLUDED when counting initials; perhaps highlight which are CONSISTENTLY multiple?
No Ch Initials
1 2 ALM
2 3 ALM
3 7 ALMS
4 10 ALR
5 11 ALR
6 12 ALR
7 13 ALMR
8 14 ALR
9 15 ALR
10 19 KHYAS
11 20 TH
12 26 TSM
13 27 TS
14 28 TSM
15 29 ALM
16 30 ALM
17 31 ALM
18 32 ALM
19 36 YS
20 38 S
21 40 HM
22 41 HM
23 42 HMASQ
24 43 HM
25 44 HM
26 45 HM
27 46 HM
28 50 Q
29 68 NJK- Obviously in 365 GOD is the one from Whom came the revelation
362 And the Quran that is full of wisdom.
...
365 This revelation is from the Almighty, Most Merciful.Obviously also used for people depending on context
1230
1251
1278
1288
JK- If IYU removing verses nullifies protection then that has already happened. There are thousands of copies of the Quran printed by submission.org which dont contain 9128&129.
Yes, direct willful disobedience per recommendation of their idol and bad manipulative math.
JK- Ofcourse theres always alot of glass but that shouldn block one form seeing the diamonds. The counts of the words in the Bismillah are 1) done by a consistent method
False -- they removed verses, the first word only appears 3 times not nineteen, etc.
Abdul Baqi came to a similar count 50 yrts before RK
3) COINCEIDENTALLY??!So what, anyone can now easily varify counts with browser simple search tool and if one looks for all things nineteen they'll find on average 5% hits, whoopee do.
Already did this on a 114 chapter book with #of verses chosen at random...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597403.msg196912#msg196912the GVs of four other attributes of GOD in the Quran MATCHED EXACTLY the counts of the four words in the Bismillah e.g. "zul fadlil azeem" GV = 2698 which equals exctly to RK's count of "allah" though RK never knew about the GV which was discovered later. How likely is it that youll find an attribute in the Quran whose GV >2000. Unlikely aint it? Now how unlikely is it that itd be exactly 2698?? Extremely unlikely but yet it happened. Same goes for the other three words.
What? You have to be kidding, with 28 letters the combinations gv = 2698 are astronomical.
28 factorial = 3.04888345^1029
You know there are only 10^50 electrons in the known universe, and we already discussed this in another thread the larger the number the greater the probability.
Here, start combining letters see how many combinations with gv = 2698...lol
6236 <---- Total Verses in Qur'an
Value | Appears in Qur'an | Letter
1 ???.. 59090 ???..
2 ???.. 11492 ???..
3 ???.. 3317 ???..
4 ???.. 5990 ???..
5 ???.. 17241 ???..
6 ???.. 25589 ???..
7 ???.. 1599 ???..
8 ???.. 4141 ???..
9 ???.. 1274 ???..
10 ???.. 25734 ???..
20 ???.. 10497 ???..
30 ???.. 38191 ???..
40 ???.. 26733 ???..
50 ???.. 27270 ???..
60 ???.. 6015 ???..
70 ???.. 9406 ???..
80 ???.. 8747 ???..
90 ???.. 2072 ???..
100 ???.. 7034 ???..
200 ???.. 12407 ???..
300 ???.. 2124 ???..
400 ???.. 10469 ???..
500 ???.. 1414 ???..
600 ???.. 2497 ???..
700 ???.. 4934 ???..
800 ???.. 1686 ???..
900 ???.. 852 ???..
1000 ???.. 1222 ???..5995 ???.. 329037 <----- Total Letters in Quran
5995 329037 is prime!
By the way, # of alif in the entire Qur'an with ALL 6236 verses = 59090 / 19 = 3110!
Which means very little other than only that and check out this miracle...lol
ch|verses|ch+v
178
2286288
3200203
4176180
5120125
6165171
7206213
87583
9129138
10109119
11123134
12111123
134356
145266
1599114
16128144
17111128
18110128
1998117
20135155
21112133
2278100
23118141
246488
2577102
26227253
2793120
2888116
296998
306090
313465
323062
3373106
345488
354580
3683119
37182219
3888126
3975114
4085125
415495
425395
4389132
4459103
453782
463581
473885
482977
491867
504595
5160111
5249101
5362115
5455109
5578133
5696152
572986
582280
592483
601373
611475
621173
631174
641882
651277
661278
673097
6852120
6952121
7044114
712899
7228100
732093
7456130
7540115
7631107
7750127
7840118
7946125
8042122
8129110
8219101
8336119
8425109
8522107
8617103
8719106
8826114
8930119
9020110
9115106
9221113
9311104
948102
958103
9619115
975102
988106
998107
10011111
10111112
1028110
1033106
1049113
1055110
1064110
1077114
1083111
1096115
1103113
1115116
1124116
1135118
1146120583180861 <---- Total is prime!
-
Peace "eid",
Peace jonny,
Why, are not those 112 verses part of Quran as you stated prior? NOT nineteen multiple if NOT EXCLUDED. Then they remove verses to make multiples based on nonsense weak hadith at that.
JK- Those 112 verses are part of the Quran BUT they are UNNUMBERED. GOD apparently showed this via His numerical structure. This is exactly why when we count the initials we INCLUDE THOSE BISMILLAH LETTERS CONSISTENTLY.
Then INCLUDED when counting initials; perhaps highlight which are CONSISTENTLY multiple?
No Ch Initials
1 2 ALM
2 3 ALM
3 7 ALMS
4 10 ALR
5 11 ALR
6 12 ALR
7 13 ALMR
8 14 ALR
9 15 ALR
10 19 KHYAS
11 20 TH
12 26 TSM
13 27 TS
14 28 TSM
15 29 ALM
16 30 ALM
17 31 ALM
18 32 ALM
19 36 YS
20 38 S
21 40 HM
22 41 HM
23 42 HMASQ
24 43 HM
25 44 HM
26 45 HM
27 46 HM
28 50 Q
29 68 NJK- There is still problems with initial counts that have "alif" as initials. BUT the initial counts have shown an overall significant result. Here are the details
http//19.org/index.php?id=26,62,0,0,1,0Obviously also used for people depending on context
1230
1251
1278
1288
JK- Ive explained this in my second post to you.
Yes, direct willful disobedience per recommendation of their idol and bad manipulative math.
JK- BUT you havnt answered my assertion. You claimed that removing verses would violate protection claimed by GOD. Meaning your claiming that no one should be able to remove verses or how do you understand that? So if there are two or more books in the world bith claiming to be Quran and one having less verses than the other HOW WOULD YOU TELL WHICH ONE IS THE TRUE QURAN? Can you answer that please?
False -- they removed verses, the first word only appears 3 times not nineteen, etc.
JK- "ism" is an exception i must admit. And yes for any exception there must be good justification and there is in this case. Please see
http//submission.org/miracle/miracle19x.html
Hence only "ism(alif sin miim)" is counted and that occurs 19 times. ALSO there is one additional attribute of GOD, namely, shaheed,, that occurs exatly 19 times.So what, anyone can now easily varify counts with browser simple search tool and if one looks for all things nineteen they'll find on average 5% hits, whoopee do.
Already did this on a 114 chapter book with #of verses chosen at random...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597403.msg196912#msg196912JK- Again this shows your probably not aware of RKs work. Otherwise you would have known that he recounted each word for himself later on and did not rely on a previous index. Thats how he came up with 2699 words "allah" in the mushaf later whilst Baqi was stating 2698. Initially RK also counted 2698 BOTH RK AND BAQI making a different mistake by exluding a term "allah" in a different verse. Bro Edip Yuksel whos been working together side by side with Edip can attest to all of this. Then finally RK conlusded the extra "allah" was tht of 9129.
What? You have to be kidding, with 28 letters the combinations gv = 2698 are astronomical.
28 factorial = 3.04888345^1029
You know there are only 10^50 electrons in the known universe, and we already discussed this in another thread the larger the number the greater the probability.
Here, start combining letters see how many combinations with gv = 2698...lol
JK- WAIT. STOP RIGHT HERE. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT RANDOM COMBINATIONS OF LETTERS. THE TERMS MUST BE WORDS THAT EXIST IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGE. I thought that was clear but apparently not. Gibberish doesnt count otherwise ofcourse it would be non significant. MOREOVER the terms need to be ATTRIBUTES. So again HOW MANY ARABIC ATTRIBUTES HAVE GVS EQUAL 2698? Not many BECAUSE MOST NON GIBBERISH REAL ARABIC WORDS HAVE GVS LESS THAN 2000. That was my point.
By the way, # of alif in the entire Qur'an with ALL 6236 verses = 59090 / 19 = 3110!
Which means very little other than only that and check out this miracle...lol
ch|verses|ch+v
178
2286288
3200203
4176180
5120125
6165171
7206213
87583
9129138
10109119
11123134
12111123
134356
145266
1599114
16128144
17111128
18110128
1998117
20135155
21112133
2278100
23118141
246488
2577102
26227253
2793120
2888116
296998
306090
313465
323062
3373106
345488
354580
3683119
37182219
3888126
3975114
4085125
415495
425395
4389132
4459103
453782
463581
473885
482977
491867
504595
5160111
5249101
5362115
5455109
5578133
5696152
572986
582280
592483
601373
611475
621173
631174
641882
651277
661278
673097
6852120
6952121
7044114
712899
7228100
732093
7456130
7540115
7631107
7750127
7840118
7946125
8042122
8129110
8219101
8336119
8425109
8522107
8617103
8719106
8826114
8930119
9020110
9115106
9221113
9311104
948102
958103
9619115
975102
988106
998107
10011111
10111112
1028110
1033106
1049113
1055110
1064110
1077114
1083111
1096115
1103113
1115116
1124116
1135118
1146120583180861 <---- Total is prime!
JK- Your forgetting that the alif counts are the most disputed even now. We dont even know for sure yet if RKs counts of "alif, laam , miim" etc are correct because of this very problem of identifying alif. Apparently you were not aware of this either. GOD Bless!
-
Peace jonny,
JK- Those 112 verses are part of the Quran BUT they are UNNUMBERED. GOD apparently showed this via His numerical structure. This is exactly why when we count the initials we INCLUDE THOSE BISMILLAH LETTERS CONSISTENTLY.
Pure conjecture to MAKE IT multiple, Qur?an states otherwise.
Likewise, to delete 9128-129 is pure conjecture to MAKE IT multiple.JK- There is still problems with initial counts that have "alif" as initials. BUT the initial counts have shown an overall significant result. Here are the details
http//19.org/index.php?id=26,62,0,0,1,0Insignificant, inconsistent work done by the clueless presented in a shroud.
I simply asked which are consistently multiple in their chapters? Here, lets verify per 1736...
No....Ch Initials ..............................................Total...Total / 19
1......2....ALM??.4704....3205...2196...............10105...531.8421053
2......3....ALM??.2662....1896...1249.................5807...305.6315789
3......7....ALMS?.2648....1531...1164....97..........5440...286.3157895
4.....10....ALR??1356....916....257....................2529...133.1052632
5.....11....ALR??1418....797....325....................2540...133.6842105
6.....12....ALR??1375....812....257....................2444...128.6315789
7.....13....ALMR?..627....482....260....137...........1506....79.26315789
8.....14....ALR......618....453....160.....................1231....64.78947368
9.....15....ALR......525....324.....96.......................945....49.73684211
10....19....KHYAS..137....175....334....117....26.....789....41.52631579
11....20....TH........28....251................................279....14.68421053
12....26....TSM......33....94.....484........................611....32.15789474
13....27....TS........27....94..................................121.....6.368421053
14....28....TSM......19....102....460.......................581....30.57894737
15....29....ALM.....814....554....344.....................1712....90.10526316
16....30....ALM?...317....395....317.....................1029....54.15789474
17....31....ALM.....389....300....173.......................862....45.36842105
18....32....ALM.....279....155....158.......................592....31.15789474
19....36....YS........231....48.................................279....14.68421053
20....38....S..........29...........................................29.....1.526315789
21....40....HM........64....380................................444....23.36842105
22....41....HM........48....276................................324....17.05263158
23....42....HMAySQ.53....300.....98.....54....57........562....29.57894737
24....43....HM........44....324.................................368....19.36842105
25....44....HM........16....150..................................166.....8.736842105
26....45....HM........31....200..................................231....12.15789474
27....46....HM........36....225..................................261....13.73684211
28....50....Q..........57..........................................57......3
29....68....N.........132...........................................132.....6.947368421How embarrassing -- ONLY one chapter is multiple out of 29 = 0.0344827586 or 3.4%!
Perhaps check the above counts and tell us if they are incorrect or show how to manipulate.
JK- BUT you havnt answered my assertion. You claimed that removing verses would violate protection claimed by GOD. Meaning your claiming that no one should be able to remove verses or how do you understand that? So if there are two or more books in the world bith claiming to be Quran and one having less verses than the other HOW WOULD YOU TELL WHICH ONE IS THE TRUE QURAN? Can you answer that please?
God says the book is protected and the believers know this; you on the other hand believe in all things nineteen, therefore the burden of proof is on you so show us what happens if this simple verse is deleted...
21 Alif Lam Mim or flipped to Lam Alif Mim
JK- "ism" is an exception i must admit. And yes for any exception there must be good justification and there is in this case. Please see
http//submission.org/miracle/miracle19x.htmlFeel free to reply to this thread.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597644.msg190391#msg190391JK- Again this shows your probably not aware of RKs work.
Everything that I've read is a waste of time; mostly ignorant and absurd.
I know exactly what was done to manipulate the count.
JK- WAIT. STOP RIGHT HERE. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT RANDOM COMBINATIONS OF LETTERS. THE TERMS MUST BE WORDS THAT EXIST IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGE. I thought that was clear but apparently not. Gibberish doesnt count otherwise ofcourse it would be non significant. MOREOVER the terms need to be ATTRIBUTES. So again HOW MANY ARABIC ATTRIBUTES HAVE GVS EQUAL 2698? Not many BECAUSE MOST NON GIBBERISH REAL ARABIC WORDS HAVE GVS LESS THAN 2000. That was my point.
Do you know how big 28 factorial = 3.04888345^1029 is?
That's all the electrons in 200 universes! lol I can't believe this discussion.
JK- Your forgetting that the alif counts are the most disputed even now. We dont even know for sure yet if RKs counts of "alif, laam , miim" etc are correct because of this very problem of identifying alif. Apparently you were not aware of this either. GOD Bless!
That is where it all started and now back to nowhere.
Peace
-
Peace "eid",
Peace jonny,
Pure conjecture to MAKE IT multiple, Qur?an states otherwise.
Likewise, to delete 9128-129 is pure conjecture to MAKE IT multiple.Insignificant, inconsistent work done by the clueless presented in a shroud.
I simply asked which are consistently multiple in their chapters? Here, lets verify per 1736...
No....Ch Initials ..............................................Total...Total / 19
1......2....ALM??.4704....3205...2196...............10105...531.8421053
2......3....ALM??.2662....1896...1249.................5807...305.6315789
3......7....ALMS?.2648....1531...1164....97..........5440...286.3157895
4.....10....ALR??1356....916....257....................2529...133.1052632
5.....11....ALR??1418....797....325....................2540...133.6842105
6.....12....ALR??1375....812....257....................2444...128.6315789
7.....13....ALMR?..627....482....260....137...........1506....79.26315789
8.....14....ALR......618....453....160.....................1231....64.78947368
9.....15....ALR......525....324.....96.......................945....49.73684211
10....19....KHYAS..137....175....334....117....26.....789....41.52631579
11....20....TH........28....251................................279....14.68421053
12....26....TSM......33....94.....484........................611....32.15789474
13....27....TS........27....94..................................121.....6.368421053
14....28....TSM......19....102....460.......................581....30.57894737
15....29....ALM.....814....554....344.....................1712....90.10526316
16....30....ALM?...317....395....317.....................1029....54.15789474
17....31....ALM.....389....300....173.......................862....45.36842105
18....32....ALM.....279....155....158.......................592....31.15789474
19....36....YS........231....48.................................279....14.68421053
20....38....S..........29...........................................29.....1.526315789
21....40....HM........64....380................................444....23.36842105
22....41....HM........48....276................................324....17.05263158
23....42....HMAySQ.53....300.....98.....54....57........562....29.57894737
24....43....HM........44....324.................................368....19.36842105
25....44....HM........16....150..................................166.....8.736842105
26....45....HM........31....200..................................231....12.15789474
27....46....HM........36....225..................................261....13.73684211
28....50....Q..........57..........................................57......3
29....68....N.........132...........................................132.....6.947368421How embarrassing -- ONLY one chapter is multiple out of 29 = 0.0344827586 or 3.4%!
Perhaps check the above counts and tell us if they are incorrect or show how to manipulate.
JK- Why is it insignificant? Dont you see a comparison has been done by dividing with ther nos and 19 CLEARLY STANDS OUT? How can tht be insignificant? ALSO would you say that just the initial "qaf" occuring exactly 57 times in each of the suras which have the initial "qaf" in them, although one sura is almost TWICE AS LONG as the other, is insignificant too?
God says the book is protected and the believers know this; you on the other hand believe in all things nineteen, therefore the burden of proof is on you so show us what happens if this simple verse is deleted...
21 Alif Lam Mim or flipped to Lam Alif Mim
JK- How do they know? How would they even know that this very statement itself is actually part of the Quran and thus from GOD? This is what you havnt told me yet. Hence youve not yet provided +ve evidence and your insiting for us to prove a -ve. This is a seriosuly fallacy. Regarding the flipping of alif lam meem sure one can but nobody is saying the findings are complete as of now. We'll have to see why that particular order in the future GW or whether it might need to be flipped which is unlikely though since all chapters have the same order.
Feel free to reply to this thread.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597644.msg190391#msg190391JK- I will when i have time.
Everything that I've read is a waste of time; mostly ignorant and absurd.
JK- This is not an argument. Anyone can make this claim. You need to explain how.
I know exactly what was done to manipulate the count.
JK- Then you should point out the flaw in each individual point i made.
Do you know how big 28 factorial = 3.04888345^1029 is?
That's all the electrons in 200 universes! lol I can't believe this discussion.
That is where it all started and now back to nowhere.
Peace
JK- Again your not addressing the issue. There are not 3.xx^1029 words in the Arabic MUCH LESS ATTRIBUTES. Now please tell me how many attributes in Arabic are there approximately and how many of those have GVs=2698? That is the pt. GOD Bless!
-
Peace jonny,
JK- Why is it insignificant? Dont you see a comparison has been done by dividing with ther nos and 19 CLEARLY STANDS OUT? How can tht be insignificant? ALSO would you say that just the initial "qaf" occuring exactly 57 times in each of the suras which have the initial "qaf" in them, although one sura is almost TWICE AS LONG as the other, is insignificant too?
Are you serious -- CLEARLY STANDS OUT? WHERE?
No....Ch Initials ..............................................Total...Total / 19
1......2....ALM??.4704....3205...2196...............10105...531.8421053 NOT MULTIPLE!
2......3....ALM??.2662....1896...1249.................5807...305.6315789 NOT MULTIPLE!
3......7....ALMS?.2648....1531...1164....97..........5440...286.3157895 NOT MULTIPLE!
4.....10....ALR??1356....916....257....................2529...133.1052632 NOT MULTIPLE!
5.....11....ALR??1418....797....325....................2540...133.6842105 NOT MULTIPLE!
6.....12....ALR??1375....812....257....................2444...128.6315789 NOT MULTIPLE! 7.....13....ALMR?..627....482....260....137...........1506....79.26315789 NOT MULTIPLE! 8.....14....ALR......618....453....160.....................1231....64.78947368 NOT MULTIPLE! 9.....15....ALR......525....324.....96.......................945....49.73684211 NOT MULTIPLE! 10....19....KHYAS..137....175....334....117....26.....789....41.52631579 NOT MULTIPLE! 11....20....TH........28....251................................279....14.68421053 NOT MULTIPLE! 12....26....TSM......33....94.....484........................611....32.15789474 NOT MULTIPLE! 13....27....TS........27....94..................................121.....6.368421053 NOT MULTIPLE! 14....28....TSM......19....102....460.......................581....30.57894737 NOT MULTIPLE! 15....29....ALM.....814....554....344.....................1712....90.10526316 NOT MULTIPLE! 16....30....ALM?...317....395....317.....................1029....54.15789474 NOT MULTIPLE! 17....31....ALM.....389....300....173.......................862....45.36842105 NOT MULTIPLE! 18....32....ALM.....279....155....158.......................592....31.15789474 NOT MULTIPLE! 19....36....YS........231....48.................................279....14.68421053 NOT MULTIPLE! 20....38....S..........29...........................................29.....1.526315789 NOT MULTIPLE! 21....40....HM........64....380................................444....23.36842105 NOT MULTIPLE! 22....41....HM........48....276................................324....17.05263158 NOT MULTIPLE! 23....42....HMAySQ.53....300.....98.....54....57........562....29.57894737 NOT MULTIPLE! 24....43....HM........44....324.................................368....19.36842105 NOT MULTIPLE! 25....44....HM........16....150..................................166.....8.736842105 NOT MULTIPLE! 26....45....HM........31....200..................................231....12.15789474 NOT MULTIPLE! 27....46....HM........36....225..................................261....13.73684211 NOT MULTIPLE!
28....50....Q..........57..........................................57......3
29....68....N.........132...........................................132.....6.947368421 NOT MULTIPLE!Qaf BIG DEAL! Here let's do a simple search and look for multiples...
In chapter 50 same as with 57 Qaf there are also 171 (19x9) Lam
In chapter 51 there are 19 H
In chapter 52 there are 38 Ayn and 19 HIT MEANS NOTHING! In 114 chapters some will be multiple.
JK- Then you should point out the flaw in each individual point i made.
What points, that you do not understand basic probability, never bother check this for yourself.
JK- Again your not addressing the issue. There are not 3.xx^1029 words in the Arabic MUCH LESS ATTRIBUTES. Now please tell me how many attributes in Arabic are there approximately and how many of those have GVs=2698? That is the pt. GOD Bless!
#of electrons in 20 universes and you want me to waste time do your work for you to prove a pointless point. lol With infinity one can find anything and it is your claim, therefore you tell us.
You guys freak out every time you see something nineteen multiple -- IT MEANS NOTHING!
-
Peace "eid",
Peace jonny,
Are you serious -- CLEARLY STANDS OUT? WHERE?
No....Ch Initials ..............................................Total...Total / 19
1......2....ALM??.4704....3205...2196...............10105...531.8421053 NOT MULTIPLE!
2......3....ALM??.2662....1896...1249.................5807...305.6315789 NOT MULTIPLE!
3......7....ALMS?.2648....1531...1164....97..........5440...286.3157895 NOT MULTIPLE!
4.....10....ALR??1356....916....257....................2529...133.1052632 NOT MULTIPLE!
5.....11....ALR??1418....797....325....................2540...133.6842105 NOT MULTIPLE!
6.....12....ALR??1375....812....257....................2444...128.6315789 NOT MULTIPLE! 7.....13....ALMR?..627....482....260....137...........1506....79.26315789 NOT MULTIPLE! 8.....14....ALR......618....453....160.....................1231....64.78947368 NOT MULTIPLE! 9.....15....ALR......525....324.....96.......................945....49.73684211 NOT MULTIPLE! 10....19....KHYAS..137....175....334....117....26.....789....41.52631579 NOT MULTIPLE! 11....20....TH........28....251................................279....14.68421053 NOT MULTIPLE! 12....26....TSM......33....94.....484........................611....32.15789474 NOT MULTIPLE! 13....27....TS........27....94..................................121.....6.368421053 NOT MULTIPLE! 14....28....TSM......19....102....460.......................581....30.57894737 NOT MULTIPLE! 15....29....ALM.....814....554....344.....................1712....90.10526316 NOT MULTIPLE! 16....30....ALM?...317....395....317.....................1029....54.15789474 NOT MULTIPLE! 17....31....ALM.....389....300....173.......................862....45.36842105 NOT MULTIPLE! 18....32....ALM.....279....155....158.......................592....31.15789474 NOT MULTIPLE! 19....36....YS........231....48.................................279....14.68421053 NOT MULTIPLE! 20....38....S..........29...........................................29.....1.526315789 NOT MULTIPLE! 21....40....HM........64....380................................444....23.36842105 NOT MULTIPLE! 22....41....HM........48....276................................324....17.05263158 NOT MULTIPLE! 23....42....HMAySQ.53....300.....98.....54....57........562....29.57894737 NOT MULTIPLE! 24....43....HM........44....324.................................368....19.36842105 NOT MULTIPLE! 25....44....HM........16....150..................................166.....8.736842105 NOT MULTIPLE! 26....45....HM........31....200..................................231....12.15789474 NOT MULTIPLE! 27....46....HM........36....225..................................261....13.73684211 NOT MULTIPLE!
28....50....Q..........57..........................................57......3
29....68....N.........132...........................................132.....6.947368421 NOT MULTIPLE!JK- ALIF suras have to be IGNORED FOR THE MOMENT because we dont yet have any consistent mehtod of identifying alifs in every case. Sorry i posted the third part of the article. Here this should show you
http//19.org/index.php?aid=61Qaf BIG DEAL! Here let's do a simple search and look for multiples...
In chapter 50 same as with 57 Qaf there are also 171 (19x9) Lam
In chapter 51 there are 19 H
In chapter 52 there are 38 Ayn and 19 HIT MEANS NOTHING! In 114 chapters some will be multiple.
JK- YES but WHY do the only two chapters which have "qaf" as their initials have qafs EXACTLY EQUAL 57, thus totalling 114 and that as we know is coincidentally!?? the no. of chapters in the Q(qaaf)uran.
What points, that you do not understand basic probability, never bother check this for yourself.
JK- Youve ignored my main point but lets move down shall we?
#of electrons in 20 universes and you want me to waste time do your work for you to prove a pointless point. lol With infinity one can find anything and it is your claim, therefore you tell us.
JK- ARE THERE AN INFINITE NO OF WORDS IN ARABIC? ARABIC MAY HAVE AT BEST 1M ATTRIBUTES. MOREOVER ARE THERE MANY ARABIC ATTRIBUTES HAVING GVS GREATER THAN 2000? Show me if there are because i dodnt think so. Most attributes in Arabic have GVs less than 2000 IMO. Show me otherwise.
You guys freak out every time you see something nineteen multiple -- IT MEANS NOTHING!
JK- NONSENSE. Bro Edip, myself and others are very critical of many claims of arbitary calcs. We differentiate between glass and diamond. Have you read Edip's debate with Ayman named "Intelligent ppls guide to code-19". If no i ask you to please do that first
http//19.org/index.php?aid=246
http//19.org/index.php?aid=250 (2nd round)
http//19.org/index.php?aid=275 (3rd round)
GOD Bless! -
Peace jonny,
JK- ALIF suras have to be IGNORED FOR THE MOMENT because we dont yet have any consistent mehtod of identifying alifs in every case. Sorry i posted the third part of the article. Here this should show you
http//19.org/index.php?aid=61Why IGNORED, because not multiple, shall we ignore alif in ?
Simple letter pop ?alif into browser and search text.That site is full of lies; already gave you the exact counts, tell us which are not correct and we can search together...
JK- YES but WHY do the only two chapters which have "qaf" as their initials have qafs EXACTLY EQUAL 57, thus totalling 114 and that as we know is coincidentally!?? the no. of chapters in the Q(qaaf)uran.
The same reason there are 57 Qaf in chapter 14
The same reason there are 133 (19x7) Qaf in chapter 26
The same reason there are 38 Qaf in chapter 32
The same reason there are 38 Qaf in chapter 47
The same reason there are 19 Qaf in chapter 61IT MEANS NOTHING!
This is basic probability; choose any prevalent letter and you?ll get multiples.
JK- Youve ignored my main point but lets move down shall we?
You have no point only conjecture, why this, why that, why why. lol
JK- ARE THERE AN INFINITE NO OF WORDS IN ARABIC? ARABIC MAY HAVE AT BEST 1M ATTRIBUTES. MOREOVER ARE THERE MANY ARABIC ATTRIBUTES HAVING GVS GREATER THAN 2000? Show me if there are because i dodnt think so. Most attributes in Arabic have GVs less than 2000 IMO. Show me otherwise.
You still don't get it, the pool is infinite and you found a meaningless conjecture like someone giving all the combinations for lotto and you freak out in amazement that you won; the same with Qaf in chapter 50 -- BIG DEAL!
JK- NONSENSE. Bro Edip, myself and others are very critical of many claims of arbitary calcs. We differentiate between glass and diamond. Have you read Edip's debate with Ayman named "Intelligent ppls guide to code-19". If no i ask you to please do that first
Waste time reading that site full of lies and miscounts, the land of the clueless.
Have little respect for people who believe 1974 special although this sounds cool...lol
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTiSzFp4arg
peace
-
Peace "eid",
Peace jonny,
Why IGNORED, because not multiple, shall we ignore alif in ?
Simple letter pop ?alif into browser and search text.That site is full of lies; already gave you the exact counts, tell us which are not correct and we can search together...
JK- According to RK ALL alif intiialed suras occur in mutliples of 19. BUT we are honest enough to admit that the alif counts are controversial. You can play around with alif counts since there is no consistent method shown yet for their counts. Submission.org claims to have reanalysed the counts and states that the sets of alif initialed suras occur in xples of 19 just like the HM sets. HOWEVER this still needs independent verification.
The same reason there are 57 Qaf in chapter 14
The same reason there are 133 (19x7) Qaf in chapter 26
The same reason there are 38 Qaf in chapter 32
The same reason there are 38 Qaf in chapter 47
The same reason there are 19 Qaf in chapter 61IT MEANS NOTHING!
JK- But sice those two chapters are initialed by "qaf" it means something. And also the initials of suras 19, 36, 42 occur in xples of 19. Reg HM you should check this out
serach for "orchestra" at http//19.org/index.php?aid=246
Regarding sura 68 or sura NOON yes indeed the initial noon is to be spelled noon waw noon. The reason is justified by a verse in the Quran which mentions "ZAN NOON" i.e. "posessor of noon"
2187 And Zan-Noon (Jonah, "the one with an `N' in his name", abandoned his mission in protest, thinking that we could not control him. He ended up imploring from the darkness (of the big fish's belly) "There is no god other than You. Be You glorified. I have committed a gross sin."
NOW in sura 68/noon there is one reference to "Jonah" termed as "sahibal hoot"
6848 You shall steadfastly persevere in carrying out the commands of your Lord. Do not be like (Jonah) who called from inside the fish(sahibal hoot).
NOTICE GOD didnt call him yuNus but instead used a term without "N". Then in another sura He refers to the SAME PERSON calling him "posessor of NOON" i.e. the one noon tht wld make 132 to 133=19x7. One must be blind not to see this relation. Is all this coincidence? If so explain to me the 2187.This is basic probability; choose any prevalent letter and you?ll get multiples.
You have no point only conjecture, why this, why that, why why. lol
You still don't get it, the pool is infinite and you found a meaningless conjecture like someone giving all the combinations for lotto and you freak out in amazement that you won; the same with Qaf in chapter 50 -- BIG DEAL!
JK- THE POOL IS NOT INFINITE. There is NEVER an infinite amount of words in any language. Suppose there are 1B attributes. HOW MANY of those would have GVs = 2698. Perhaps 10.
Waste time reading that site full of lies and miscounts, the land of the clueless.
Ayman easily took you out and have little respect for people who believe 1974 special although this sounds cool...lol
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTiSzFp4arg
peace
JK- Where did Ayman take me out? I addressed all his points regarding this issue and so did brother Edip. GOD Bless!
-
Peace all,
Dera Kn where you get Bidha? from???? Please clarify.
Dear Alen
Please review the following. I am also trying to learn, so help us God.
304Within ten years! God?s is the Command in the past and in the future. On that day the believers too will have cause to rejoice.
( from ourbeacon.com )
Bidha = denoting less in number in single digit, and Sineen = years so any thing between about 3 to 9, word Bidha can be used as is written in this Ayat in connection with Sineen (years,) meaning less than 10. ( May God forgive me for possibly misspelling Bidha in English script here)
Just like Saba has been used do denote seven ( meaning several) Bidha has been used in above Ayat to denote a single digit number of years.
-
Peace jonny,
JK- According to RK ALL alif intiialed suras occur in mutliples of 19. BUT we are honest enough to admit that the alif counts are controversial.
No they are not controversial and he knowingly lied simple as that.
You can play around with alif counts since there is no consistent method shown yet for their counts.
I'm not playing, you are the ones manipulating; simply count alif.Submission.org claims to have reanalysed the counts and states that the sets of alif initialed suras occur in xples of 19 just like the HM sets. HOWEVER this still needs independent verification.
It's obvious they are liars like their idol.
JK- But sice those two chapters are initialed by "qaf" it means something.
That SOMETHING is only (illa) in your head. lol
And also the initials of suras 19, 36, 42 occur in xples of 19.
NO THEY DO NOT! Instead of parroting lies check and verify?
19 KHYAS 137 + 175 + 334 + 117 + 26 = 789 NOT MULTIPLE!
36 YS 231 + 48 = 279 NOT MULTIPLE!
42 HMAySQ 53 + 300 + 98 + 54 + 57 = 562 NOT MULTIPLE!
Reg HM you should check this out
serach for "orchestra" at http//19.org/index.php?aid=246More clueless stuff about 1974; wast of time.
Already told you NONE of the initialed chapters are multiple only one.Regarding sura 68 or sura NOON yes indeed the initial noon is to be spelled noon waw noon.
Manipulation to make nineteen; changing adds another initial
wwIs all this coincidence? If so explain to me the 2187.
Conjecture and nothing to explain the pen 681 has little to do with 2187
JK- THE POOL IS NOT INFINITE. There is NEVER an infinite amount of words in any language. Suppose there are 1B attributes. HOW MANY of those would have GVs = 2698. Perhaps 10.
You still don?t get it; you conjectured and found a combination GV = 2698; with 28 letters there are close to INFINITE combinations with GV=2698, no reason to freak out that you found one. lol
JK- Where did Ayman take me out?
It?s obvious you did not even bother to count. Here is chapter 36 YS simply do a search
y? mu?jamah gv=10 (total 211)
y? muhmalah gv=10 (total 20)211 + 20 = 231
sn gv=60 (total 4
231 + 48 = 279 NOT MULTIPLE!
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Forgot to include (y hamza) gv =10 changes count although still not multiple.
19 KHYAS 137 + 175 + 349 + 117 + 26 = 804 NOT MULTIPLE!
36 YS 242 + 48 = 290 NOT MULTIPLE!
y hamza gv=10 (total 11 )
y? mu?jamah gv=10 (total 211)
y? muhmalah gv=10 (total 20 )11 + 211 + 20 = 242
sn gv=60 (total 4
-
I see no reply to the above.
Alright, had time to waste look at this 2698 stuff plastered on the web.
http//www.quran.org/math.htmDr. Cesar Adib Majul, in his book "The Attributes of Allah in Relation To The Mathematical Structure of Quran" discovered the following two facts
-
Only four attributes of God have gematrical (numerical) values that are a multiple of 19, i.e. Wahed, Zul fadlil 'azeem, Majeed, and Jami'.
-
The numerical values of these four attributes correspond exactly to the frequency of the four words of "basmalah," in the Quran; that is, 19, 2698, 57, and 114.
Removing 9128-129 is ONLY (illa) fitna and here are more "attributes" also multiples...
3152 ?and God full of grace on the believers.
waAllahu thoo fadlin AAala almu/mineena700 + 6 + 80 + 800 + 30 + 70 + 30 + 10 + 1 + 30 + 40 + 10 + 40 + 50 + 10 + 50 = 1957 / 19 = 103
3163 and God seeing with what they do.
waAllahu baseerun bima yaAAmaloona(2 + 90 + 10 + 200) + (2 + 40 + 1) + (10 + 70 + 40 + 30 + 6 + 50) = 551 / 19 = 29
866 and God (is) with the patient.
waAllahu maAAa alssabireena40 + 70 + 1 + 30 + 90 + 1 + 2 + 200 + 10 + 50 = 494 / 19 = 26
1219 and God knowledgeable with what they make/do.
waAllahu AAaleemun bima yaAAmaloona70 + 30 + 10 + 40 + 2 + 40 + 1 + 10 + 70 + 40 + 30 + 6 + 50 = 399 / 19 = 21
Peace,
-
-
Peace "eid",
Peace jonny,
No they are not controversial and he knowingly lied simple as that.JK- They ARE CONTROVERSIAL and you not knowing this just shows your ignorance on the subject. If you look at the manuscripts in ciculation today youll find hell lot more alifs filled in which you wont find in the older manuscripts mostly indicating a "hamza" pronounciation. You can look this up for yourself. Eg in 2132 we have "wa Awsa" with alif in warsh and "wawasa" WITHOUT alif in hafs.
I'm not playing, you are the ones manipulating; simply count alif.
JK- If it were that simple then why dont you accept the counts revised by submission.org as of now
http//www.submission.org/miracle/alif.html
In that case the alif lam meem sets act just like the HM sets. YET im not claiming these counts are correct for they still require independent verification. Bro Edip would tell you the same. So it aint all that clear is it?It's obvious they are liars like their idol.
JK- "Liar" means one who delibaretely puts up false information. This is a big accusation your hurling at them and hence your appealing to emotions rather than reason.
That SOMETHING is only (illa) in your head. lol
JK- Ok i get it your claiming it to be non significant whilst i clearly dont.
NO THEY DO NOT! Instead of parroting lies check and verify?
19 KHYAS 137 + 175 + 334 + 117 + 26 = 789 NOT MULTIPLE!
JK- I believe you ignored the subtle "ya"s as in "la-In" in 1946 for example. The auto count wont give you that easily. http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/arabic/v-19.htm
36 YS 231 + 48 = 279 NOT MULTIPLE!
JK- http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/arabic/v-36.htm
42 HMAySQ 53 + 300 + 98 + 54 + 57 = 562 NOT MULTIPLE!
JK- http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/arabic/v-42.htm
MAN these counts have BEEN VERIFIED BY BRO LAYTH AND OTHERS AS WELL. Your not paying attention to the subtle "ya"s. Here check this too
http//www.free-minds.org/sites/default/files/19.pdfMore clueless stuff about 1974; wast of time.
Already told you NONE of the initialed chapters are multiple only one.JK- You must be using a wrong counter or some other manuscript. Check the above article carefully.
Manipulation to make nineteen; changing adds another initial
wwJK- The "waw" is justified from "Zan NOON" which has "noon" spelled as "noon WAW noon" in it. He is the "posessor of Noon waw Noon".
Conjecture and nothing to explain the pen 681 has little to do with 2187
JK- It has little to do? Then why does chapter 68 have exatly one less noon than 133 which is ZMN and at the same time in another chapter we find GOD talking about a "POSESSOR OF NOON WAW NOON"? Is this coincidence? Explain to me the significance of 2187 then.
You still don?t get it; you conjectured and found a combination GV = 2698; with 28 letters there are close to INFINITE combinations with GV=2698, no reason to freak out that you found one. lol
JK- There are IFNINTE RANDOM COMBINATIONS YES BUT NOT REAL ARABIC WORDS. Thats what your not getting so either your fooling around with me by not addressing this or you didnt get my point.
It?s obvious you did not even bother to count. Here is chapter 36 YS simply do a search
y? mu?jamah gv=10 (total 211)
y? muhmalah gv=10 (total 20)211 + 20 = 231
sn gv=60 (total 4
231 + 48 = 279 NOT MULTIPLE!
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3680
3681
3682
3683JK- Check 19-fact or fiction above. These counts have been VERIFIED. GOD Bless!