caliph umar converts dumping ground into a "holy" site
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, and I am aware of their pain.
Vayomer Adonay ra'oh ra'iti et-oni ami asher beMitsrayim ve'et tsa'akatam shamati mipeney nogsav ki yadati et-mach'ovav.38 I have come down to rescue them from Egypt's power. I will bring them out of that land, to a good, spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, the territory of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Yebusites.
Va'ered lehatsilo miyad Mitsrayim uleha'aloto min-ha'arets hahi el-erets tovah urechavah el-erets zavat chalav udevash el-mekom haKna'ani vehaChiti veha'Emori vehaPrizi vehaChivi vehaYevusi.39 'Right now the cry of the Israelites is coming to Me. I also see the pressure to which Egypt is subjecting them.
Ve'atah hineh tsa'akat beney Yisra'el ba'ah elay vegam-ra'iti et-halachats asher Mitsrayim lochatsim otam.
310 Now go. I am sending you to Pharaoh. Bring My people, the Israelites, out of Egypt.'
Ve'atah lecha ve'eshlachacha el-Par'oh vehotse et-ami veney Yisra'el mi-Mitsrayim.311 'Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh?' said Moses to God. 'And how can I possibly get the Israelites out of Egypt?'
Vayomer Moshe el-ha'Elohim mi anochi ki elech el-Par'oh vechi otsi et-beney Yisra'el mi-Mitsrayim.
312 'Because I will be with you,' replied . 'Proof that I have sent you will come when you get the people out of Egypt. All of you will then become God's servants on this mountain.'
Vayomer ki eheyeh imach vezeh-lecha ha'ot ki anochi shlachticha behotsi'acha et-ha'am mi-Mitsrayim ta'avdun et-ha'Elohim al hahar hazeh.315 God then said to Moses, 'You must say to the Israelites, 'YHVH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, sent me to you.' This is My eternal name, and this is how I am to be recalled for all generations.
Vayomer od Elohim el-Moshe koh tomar el-beney Yisra'el Adonay Elohey avoteychem Elohey Avraham Elohey Yitschak ve'Elohey Ya'akov shlachani aleychem zeh-shemi le'olam vezeh zichri ledor dor.317 I declare that I will bring you out of the wretchedness of Egypt, to the land of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Yebusites - to a land flowing with milk and honey.' '
Va'omar a'aleh etchem me'oni Mitsrayim el-erets haKna'ani vehaChiti veha'Emori vehaPrizi vehaChivi vehaYevusi el-erets zavat chalav udvash.http//bible.ort.org/books/torahd5.asp?action=displaypage&book=2&chapter=3&verse=20&portion=13
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roshan-So you accept there was a temple in Jerusalem?
- Yes, this is what I have always implied. Also, the quraan mentions a temple which was destructed (177). Not mentioned is anything holy about it.
Fair enough. 'Al Haram' is not mentioned after 'masjid' in this verse.
-Beca is mentioned in the Psalms and is considered to Jerusalem, or very close to it (from my understanding). The description in that Psalm is also about a 'hajj'.
- I will reserve my comment on this for now.
Why be so mystical? This is a discussion, not a debate.
What v know for a certainty from the quraan is that abraham & ishmael built the bayt at becca. What do u make of the complete asbence of abraham & ishmael building this bayt in the bible?
I have not looked in depth at the Bible on this issue (of who built the bayt).
-Yathrib is mentioned in the Quran (many thanks for providing me with a quote I was not aware of), but Medina is not (Mecca=Beca argument).
- Medina is mentioned in the quraan. Among other verses, please refer to 9120.
The word medina is mentioned. However this means 'city'. This is, probably, another example of the sectarians making up names to justify their stories (e.g. masjid al aqsa, al arafat).
So again, you are left with the problem of two names for one place.
-In the Quran, the people of Mecca hindered the hajj. This does not mean that the hajj was near Mecca however.
- If the hajj is farther north from medina, how then did the people of mecca, south of medina, hinder the hajj?
Perhaps by organising military expeditions.
I also invite you to participate
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598116.0
Roshan
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rohsan-Fair enough. 'Al Haram' is not mentioned after 'masjid' in this verse.
- Yes. That verse simply talks about a much-abused temple, which is an apt description for the temple of jerusalem. Do u have any verse that ascribes holiness to this ill-fated temple, or to the city it stood in?
Why be so mystical? This is a discussion, not a debate.
- In the psalms, the devotee passes through the valley of bakha & appears before god in zion. If understood as a geographical location, this valley of mulberry trees is not on record
We read in the Psalms, How blessed is the man whose strength is in You, in whose heart are the highways to Zion. Passing through the Valley of Baca, they make it a spring. The early rain also covers it with blessings. They go from strength to strength. Every one of them appears before God in Zion. Psalm 845-7. A valley has long been a symbol for a dark place. Most are familiar with the valley of the shadow of death from the well known 23rd Psalm. Today the Valley of Baca is not known as a geographical location, although it may have existed in ancient Palestine. But like Psalm 23, the Valley of Baca represents a dark foreboding time. This contrasts to the symbolism of mountain peaks that refer to the high summit experiences in our lives. Students of the scriptures have interpreted its meaning as the valley of tears, weeping or lamentation. To pass through the Valley of Baca is to know times of trial.
ba'-ka bakha' In the King James Version in Ps 846, where the Revised Version (British and American) has "the valley of Weeping," with a marginal variant which is best put in the form, "the valley of the balsam-trees." The word is elsewhere used only in the duplicated account of one of David's battles (2 Sam 523,24; 1 Ch 1414,15). There the translation is "the mulberry trees," with "the balsam-trees" in the margin in the Revised Version (British and American). Conjecturally the word is, by variant spelling, of the stem which denotes weeping; the tree is called "weeper" from some habit of the trickling of its gum or of the moisture on it; the valley of weeping is not a geographical locality, but a picturesque expression for the experiences of those whose strength is in Yahweh, and who through His grace find their sorrows changed into blessings.
There is everything sectarian about this connection. The connection "discovered" (read "concocted" by the sectarians has no factual basis. The bakha of "valley of bakha" is translated as "weeping/lamenting," the corresponding root of which in arabic is "b-k-y".
The bakka of quraan comes from the root "b-k-k" which means to "cut/split; heap/crowd". Clearly, these are two different words. Clearly, no appeal can be made to bible's valley of bakha while talking about quraan's bakka.
Like I remarked, the rejectors & sectarians can keep their emotions aside. This, being a concoction by sectarians, has to be disregarded. -)
I have not looked in depth at the Bible on this issue (of who built the bayt).
- Please look into it & let me know the result. Locating the bayt (built by abraham & ishmael) in the bible will help us determine whether or not v can identify bible's jerusalem as becca of quraan. So far, v have everything against it.
-The word medina is mentioned. However this means 'city'. This is, probably, another example of the sectarians making up names to justify their stories (e.g. masjid al aqsa, al arafat).
- Are u saying that the city in that verse does not refer to yathrib? Or that the sectarians invented the word & renamed yathrib as medina?
-So again, you are left with the problem of two names for one place.
Are u making the unevaluated premise "an entity cannot be addressed by two names" the core of ur argument?
-Perhaps by organising military expeditions.
Can u elaborate? Jerusalem was under byzantine till around 614; then under sassanids till around 629; & again under byzantine till arabs captured it around 638.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Peace all
belh-
Please post a few verses from a book written by jesus. -)
Here are some
Blessed be the LORD, who executes righteous deeds, crowning his saints
with loving-kindness and mercy. My soul cries out to praise thy name, to sing high praises
for thy loving deeds, to proclaim thy faithfulness--of praise of thee there is no end. Near death
was I for my sins, and my iniquities have sold me to the grave; but thou didst save me,
O LORD, according to thy great mercy, and according to thy many righteous deeds. Indeed have I
loved thy name, and in thy protection have I found refuge. When I remember thy might my heart
is brave, and upon thy mercies do I lean. Forgive my sin, O LORD,
and purify me from my iniquity. Vouchsafe me a spirit of faith and knowledge, and let me not be dishonored
in ruin. Let not Satan rule over me, nor an unclean spirit; neither let pain nor the evil
inclination take possession of my bones. For thou, O LORD, art my praise, and in thee do I hope
Here are some more
I will bow down toward your holy temple and I will praise your name over your mercy, and over your truth because you made great over all your name your word.
In the day I called and you answered me you made me bold in my soul strength.
They give thanks to you Yahweh, all the kings of the land, because they heard words of your mouth.
And they sing in the paths of Yahweh because great is the glory of Yahweh.
Because high is Yahweh, and the low he will see and the proud from a distant place he knows.
If I walk in the middle of trouble you will revive me, over the anger of my enemies you will send your hand you will rescue me, your right hand.
Yahweh will end on behalf of me, Yahweh, your mercy is for eternity, the works of your hands will not sink.
Do I conclude that the qurann is "incomplete" and needs Torah and Ingil to complete it?
The Quran is Complete in showing us our religion, as the Torah and the Bible; But some times a story in Quran can be brief but is more detailed in Bible or Torah. Samia...you can not discount the other Books from your belief...Trust me, you are smart enough to identify the Misleading translation in Bible or Torah...Use the Quran as a Measure.
4162 But those of them who are firm in knowledge, as well as the believers, they believe in what was sent down to you and what was sent down before you; and those who uphold the communion, and those who contribute towards betterment, and those who believe in God and the Last Day; to these We will give them their reward greatly.
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thegod, here are some spacial Message for you
Teachers of lies have comforted your people
and now they stumble, foolishly.
They abhor themselves
and do not esteem me through whom your wonders
and powers are manifest.
They have banished me from my land like a bird
from its nest, and my friends
and neighbors are driven from me.
They think me a broken pot.
They preach lies. They are dissembling prophets.
They devise baseness against me,
exchanging your teaching, written in my heart,
for smooth words.
They deny knowledge to the thirsty
and force them to drink vinegar to cover up error.
They stumble through mad feasts,
but you, God, spurn the schemes of Belial (Iblias).Only your truth shines,
and those who love it are wise
and walk in the glow
of your light.
From darkness you raise hearts.
Let light shine on your servant.
Your light is everlasting. -
belh-
Yet another sad lie. Those words are alleged to have been david's, not jesus'. When u are so unclear about ur own holy books, why do u dispute about the quraan? -)
Again, keep aside ur sad emotions & lies, & post some verses from a book written by jesus. -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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belh-
- & in case u don't know, psalms is a part of the first of ur holy books (old testament), not the second (new testament). Then, search for a writing of jesus in ur second holy book, not first. -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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The Quran is Complete in showing us our religion, as the Torah and the Bible; But some times a story in Quran can be brief but is more detailed in Bible or Torah.
So the quraan is not as detailed as it claims to be? Same argument of hadithisits when promoting hadith.
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Agree...Now look for the place that Has the following Landmarks in order to identify the City of Peace
951 By the fig and the olive.
952 And the mount of Sineen.
953 And this town of peace.....
Where are the Fig and Olive trees in Mecca? where is the Mount of Sineen in Mecca? Where is Makam Abraham in Mecca?
Where are the Traces of Prophets in Mecca? Where are the Seas and rivers in Mecca of Which Pilgrms can Fish from during Pilgrim?
Where is Baka in Mecca? Where are the history that show the Isreails control of Mecca Two times?A statement can be proven false/true if it's opposite can be proven true/false.
Neither city is on top of a mountain and there is a reason it's called the Dead Sea near Jerusalem, no fish or anything except people floating on salty water.
951-3 refers to same message three separate locations not one.
Peace
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Hmm. The books of jews & christians don't as much as mention the bayt built by abraham & ishamel, & are full of a holy temple built by solomon; whereas, the quraan never mentions any holy temple built by solomon, & focuses on the bayt built by abraham & ishmael. No wonder the rejectors are aggrieved by the quraan's narration. No wonder they keep clinging to their books.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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belh-
Yet another sad lie. Those words are alleged to have been david's, not jesus'. When u are so unclear about ur own holy books, why do u dispute about the quraan? -)
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameenDavied was a King...He did not suffer....Jesus did...the words below are the words of a person who suffered.
thegod, here are some spacial Message for you
Teachers of lies have comforted your people
and now they stumble, foolishly.
They abhor themselves
and do not esteem me through whom your wonders
and powers are manifest.
They have banished me from my land like a bird
from its nest, and my friends
and neighbors are driven from me.
They think me a broken pot.
They preach lies. They are dissembling prophets.
They devise baseness against me,
exchanging your teaching, written in my heart,
for smooth words.
They deny knowledge to the thirsty
and force them to drink vinegar to cover up error.
They stumble through mad feasts,
but you, God, spurn the schemes of Belial (Iblias).Only your truth shines,
and those who love it are wise
and walk in the glow
of your light.
From darkness you raise hearts.
Let light shine on your servant.
Your light is everlasting.al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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belh-Davied was a King...He did not suffer....Jesus did...the words below are the words of a person who suffered.
Hmm. A confused assortment of verses don't merit individualized attention, does it? Regarding the words "below" (above), the author is unknown & there are various suggestions.
Let us assume that they are the words of jesus. Then, the fact that u need to locate words of jesus outside the new testament is ur admission that the new testament is not the injeel. As such, the book of christians is no longer holy for u, & till the time u find the injeel, ur faith will be incomplete. Do search well, it's a matter of completing ur faith now. -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'alaameen
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Let us assume that they are the words of jesus. Then, the fact that u need to locate words of jesus outside the new testament is ur admission that the new testament is not the injeel. As such, the book of christians is no longer holy for u, & till the time u find the injeel, ur faith will be incomplete. Do search well, it's a matter of completing ur faith now. -)
Thank you for the advise, but I think I know where to find.
Here are some more from Isaiah Dead Sea Scroll http//www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qa-tran.htm#c1- (Chapter 21) The word which Isaiah the son of Amots envisioned about Judah and Jerusalem. (2) And it shall be
- in the last days that the mountain of the house of YHWH shall be established in the top of the mountains and shall be lifted up
- above the hills and all nations shall flow into it. (3) And many people shall come and shall say
- Come, let us go up to the house of the God of Jacob and He will instruct us in his ways and we will walk in his paths,
- because the Torah shall go out from Zion, the word of YHWH from Jerusalem (4) and He will judge among the nations
If God says to believe in the Injeel and Torah as we Believe in Quran, if we want to be true moslems, then the Injeel and Torah exist and the Dead Sea Scroll are the Ones the we should be considering.
Now, according to the information in the Dead Sea Scroll, Jerusalem is where the House of Allah exist yes
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So the quraan is not as detailed as it claims to be? Same argument of hadithisits when promoting hadith.
Peace
There is a huge different between Hadith and Torah & Injeel; God ordered us to uphold the Torah and Injeel, and Reject the Hadith. If you want to call me Quraniest-Injeelist-Torahist, please feel free to do so.
Now I'm sure that you are not from those who are firm in Knowledge4162 But those of them who are firm in knowledge, as well as the believers, they believe in what was sent down to you and what was sent down before you; and those who uphold the communion, and those who contribute towards betterment, and those who believe in God and the Last Day; to these We will give them their reward greatly.
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belh-If God says to believe in the Injeel and Torah as we Believe in Quran, if we want to be true moslems, then the Injeel and Torah exist and the Dead Sea Scroll are the Ones the we should be considering.
grin
Now the dead sea scrolls are the torah & the injeel? No wonder u do not know isaiah from jesus.
But I see an improvement; u do admit that all ur life u were following the books of jews & christians, rather than the quraan. -)
Now, can v finally see some writings from the injeel?
ma'a salaam
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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belh-If God says to believe in the Injeel and Torah as we Believe in Quran, if we want to be true moslems, then the Injeel and Torah exist and the Dead Sea Scroll are the Ones the we should be considering.
grin
Now the dead sea scrolls are the torah & the injeel? No wonder u do not know isaiah from jesus.
But I see an improvement; u do admit that all ur life u were following the books of jews & christians, rather than the quraan. -)
Now, can v finally see some writings from the injeel?
ma'a salaam
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
Your plan is to discredit all the existing Torah and Injeel, and all the discoveries of the Dead Sea Scroll and NajaHammadi; why? because all show Jerusalem to be the place where house of all exist.
Teachers of lies have comforted your people
and now they stumble, foolishly.
They abhor themselves
and do not esteem me through whom your wonders
and powers are manifest.
They have banished me from my land like a bird
from its nest, and my friends
and neighbors are driven from me.
They think me a broken pot.
They preach lies. They are dissembling prophets.
They devise baseness against me,
exchanging your teaching, written in my heart,
for smooth words.
They deny knowledge to the thirsty
and force them to drink vinegar to cover up error.
They stumble through mad feasts,
but you, God, spurn the schemes of Belial (Iblias).You can drink your vinegar, but you will not make me or any other believer to drink it.
Unless you show us well-established verses prove that the House is in Mecca and not Baca, you have nothing. -
belh-
- I thought u had given up on the books of rejectors because they are not original writings; but where else can u find ur holy temple? -)
The fact remains that ur holy temple is found only in ur holy books, & not in the quraan. & to show that the graveyard-house of foxes & pigs is holy, u are adding any & every writing u can find to ur library of holy books. What is pitiful is that u don't know isa from isaiah - do u want me to educate u about ur own holy books? -)
I am satisfied with the quraan, & the rejectors with their holy books. The bayt of abraham & ishmael is extra-biblical concept, & the rejectors are not going to indulge it; & a holy temple of solomon is extra-quraanic concept, & I am not to indulge the claims of rejectors. -)
A remark - I have added ur failure to locate the injeel (to complete ur faith) to ur list of failures. -)
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'alaameen