caliph umar converts dumping ground into a "holy" site
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samia-What does this show?
That this house is where they are living? Is it forbidden to have a beautifully decorated/adorned house? No, becuase this e is not just an adorned "house, but because it is a "bayt" that is concerned only with glittering appearance and no substance. So it's not just the house walls, but the superficiality of their whole life.
- Nowhere does it suggest it is where "they" are living; don't add words to the text of the quraan. The rest of ur speech is the result of ur appending the text, & is disregarded.
The disbelievers wanted the prophet to show that he was more than a mere mortal (1794), & asked him to do something extraordinary (1790-93), failing which they would stick to their "inventions"
1790 TThey say, 'We will not believe thee till thou makest a spring to gush forth from the earth for us,
1791 or till thou possessest a garden of plants and vines, and thou makest rivers to gush forth abundantly all amongst it,
1792 or till thou makest heaven to fall, as thou assertest, on us in fragments, or thou bringest God and the angels as a surety,
1793 "Or thou have a house adorned with gold, or thou mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in thy mounting until thou send down to us a book that we could read." Say "Glory to my Lord! Am I aught but a man,- a messenger?"
1794 And naught prevented men from believing when the guidance came to them, but that they said, 'Has God sent forth a mortal as Messenger?'
The remainder of ur post is equally irrelevant.
Applying ur proposed "bayt is family" translation to 396-97
396 The first family established for the people is the one in Bakk'a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
397 Therein are clear signs -- the station of Abraham, and whosoever enters it is in security. It is the duty of all men towards God to come to the Family a pilgrim, if he is able to make his way there. As for the unbeliever, God is All-sufficient nor needs any being.
& u are yet to bring verses & literature to backup ur inventions that "bayt can't be empty," & that bayt is either "concept" or "family".
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'alaameen
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samia-What does this show?
That this house is where they are living? Is it forbidden to have a beautifully decorated/adorned house? No, becuase this e is not just an adorned "house, but because it is a "bayt" that is concerned only with glittering appearance and no substance. So it's not just the house walls, but the superficiality of their whole life.
- Nowhere does it suggest it is where "they" are living; don't add words to the text of the quraan. The rest of ur speech is the result of ur appending the text, & is disregarded.
If you cannot read my post, no wonder you cannot understand the quraan. There's a question mark after my first sentence. I am wondering if this is what you meant a physical house. Truly, it's (for people who reason).
The disbelievers wanted the prophet to show that he was more than a mere mortal (1794), & asked him to do something extraordinary (1790-93), failing which they would stick to their "inventions"
So you know they want him to show them he is immortal, extra-ordinary? What's immortal and extra ordinary about having a well decorated/ordained house?
The remainder of ur post is equally irrelevant.
I am not suprised. You stick to the traditional interpretation without thinking or trying to see how the qur'aan uses a specific term or expression. And that's what I was trying to show you.
Applying ur proposed "bayt is family" translation to 396-97
& u are yet to bring verses & literature to backup ur inventions that "bayt can't be empty," & that bayt is either "concept" or "family".
And where did I propose "bayt is family"? You accuse others of inventions and you are the one who adds words to my post.
And why do you stick to family and reject concept? Try to apply a "concept" to these verses. -
samia-If you cannot read my post, no wonder you cannot understand the quraan. There's a question mark after my first sentence. I am wondering if this is what you meant a physical house. Truly, it's (for people who reason).
- Stop dancing; u asked for a verse wherein "bayt" denotes a physical place, & that is what 1793 does.
So you know they want him to show them he is immortal, extra-ordinary? What's immortal and extra ordinary about having a well decorated/ordained house?
- Inventer at work again. Extraordinary is not immortal.
It is not just a house of gold that the verse talks about. If it's comprehension problem, please learn to read rather than arguing pointlessly
1790 They say, 'We will not believe thee till thou makest a spring to gush forth from the earth for us,
1791 or till thou possessest a garden of plants and vines, and thou makest rivers to gush forth abundantly all amongst it,
1792 or till thou makest heaven to fall, as thou assertest, on us in fragments, or thou bringest God and the angels as a surety,
1793 "Or thou have a house adorned with gold, or thou mount a ladder right into the skies. No, we shall not even believe in thy mounting until thou send down to us a book that we could read." Say "Glory to my Lord! Am I aught but a man,- a messenger?"
I am assuming u can read english with fair comfort. It is quite clear that he considered "making heaven to fall," "springs to gush forth from earth," "owning a house made from gold," & "bringing God & the angels as surety" beyond ordinary effort, & he was a mortal who could not meet their demands on his own.
I am not suprised. You stick to the traditional interpretation without thinking or trying to see how the qur'aan uses a specific term or expression. And that's what I was trying to show you.
- All u have shown is that u cannot read. Read the verse 1790-94 again, as they are.
And where did I propose "bayt is family"? You accuse others of inventions and you are the one who adds words to my post.
- Family can be swapped with household; I didn't know u would be caught unaware.
Let us apply "household"
396 The first household established for the people is the one in Bakk'a, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
397 Therein are clear signs -- the station of Abraham, and whosoever enters it is in security. It is the duty of all men towards God to come to the Household a pilgrim, if he is able to make his way there. As for the unbeliever, God is All-sufficient nor needs any being.
Now stop making empty claims, & provide some reference for ur invention that "bayt can't be empty". Not that "concept" makes more sense, but words cannot be invented on the whims & fancy of any & every nobody; the meanings "house" & "household" are established, provide some reference for bayt = concept.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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After checking the usage in the quraan, let us now consider other evidences
Nonetheless, it seems difficult to set aside the long-established view that Greek words using the root betyl or baityl reflect variant transliterations of the Semitic-language term bethel (BTL), meaning house of El (god). This conception in itself gains some force from the fact that the term seems now to be attested on an Aramaic inscription from the Roman Imperial period, found at the village of El-Mal in southern Syria, some 40 km south-west of Damascus. The inscription, which dates from 716 ac, seems to record that someone built a house of god (BNH BYT LH), that is, a temple.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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Nonetheless, it seems difficult to set aside the long-established view that Greek words using the root betyl or baityl reflect variant transliterations of the Semitic-language term bethel (BTL), meaning house of El (god). This conception in itself gains some force from the fact that the term seems now to be attested on an Aramaic inscription from the Roman Imperial period, found at the village of El-Mal in southern Syria, some 40 km south-west of Damascus. The inscription, which dates from 7/6 bc, seems to record that someone built a house of god (BNH BYT LH), that is, a temple. Though there were Jewish settlements in this region, bordering on Gaulanitis (the Golan Heights), the context is surely pagan. However, it is clear that what is referred to here is not a betyl as understood by Philo, and taken as a general conception by moderns, that is, a stone housing a divine spirit, but a building, no doubt one of those small rural sanctuaries so well attested over large parts of the Near East.
For the above, please refer to "The Roman Near East, 31 B.C.-A.D. 337" by millar; p 14.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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For the above, please refer to "The Roman Near East, 31 B.C.-A.D. 337" by millar; p 14.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
thegod, I would appreciate it if you comment in my last post, especially about Moses, Jesus, David, Salomon's Focal Point...is it Mecca or Jerusalem?
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belh-
Moses existed before solomon & the temple of jerusalem.
The jews consider the rock in the temple their focal point. How many times should it be said that temple/rock is in jerusalem, while those tombs which u talk about are in hebron? Please read my last post regarding the tombs & the rock, & clarify whether it is hebron or jerusalem that u take as ur focal point.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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- Family can be swapped with household; I didn't know u would be caught unaware.
Answer my first question Who are in 3333?
Now stop making empty claims, & provide some reference for ur invention that "bayt can't be empty". Not that "concept" makes more sense, but words cannot be invented on the whims & fancy of any & every nobody; the meanings "house" & "household" are established, provide some reference for bayt = concept.
Although it's illogical to ask someone to prove a negative, but here is a verse 2429 There's no sin on you to enter uninhabited houses ...
The underlined expression shows that otherwise bayt(s) is necessarily inhabited unless otherwise stated.
As for the house of God (2125; 2226) He asks that it has to be purified for the . Where ? Is it still empty? Where are the going to do this "i3tikaf"?And please be decent in your language. Stick to the topic and do not take it to a personal level.
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samia-Answer my first question Who are in 3333?
- Read one of my earlier posts, I already gave an answer.
Let me say it again they are the "ahl" associated with the bayt, the way ahl alkitaab are the "ahl" associated with the kitaab. If u have ur own answer, please put it in words.
-but here is a verse 2429
2429 An offense/guilt/sin is not on you that you enter houses/homes not resided in/inhabited, in it (is) enjoyment for you, and God knows what you show, and what you hide/conceal.
The fact that an uninhabited place has been called "bayt" is proof in itself against ur conjecture that an uninhabited place cannot be called "bayt".
For those comfortable with english, the word "house" denotes a place of habitation, & an uninhabited house is still called a house.
-And please be decent in your language. Stick to the topic and do not take it to a personal level.
- Don't be presumptuous, u are not exempted from observing decency
samia-If you cannot read my post, no wonder you cannot understand the quraan.
The "topic" was umar converting a dumping ground into a holy city.
Let us recap
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I have shown using quraan & inscriptional evidence that bayt is a physical place.
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& u have shown using the quraan that an uninhabited place is called bayt.
A remark -- u have not been able to provide any evidence in support of ur conjectures.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'alaameen
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I think the issue of Jerusalem is clear in the Koran. It refers to it as the holy land or the blessed land. So I believe the verse about Isra and Mi'raj is talking Jerusalem and the Temple of David and Solomon. Since it says that We have blessed. I am not sure the Koran uses that reference to anyother area. I think it uses Haram for Mecca.
But,
Whether that is the same spot as the Aqsa we have today is not clear and I would be skeptical. There was huge politics during the Ummayids.
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samia-Answer my first question Who are in 3333?
- Read one of my earlier posts, I already gave an answer.
Let me say it again they are the "ahl" associated with the bayt, the way ahl alkitaab are the "ahl" associated with the kitaab. If u have ur own answer, please put it in words.
Which bayt and how are they associated with it?
-but here is a verse 2429
The fact that an uninhabited place has been called "bayt" is proof in itself against ur conjecture that an uninhabited place cannot be called "bayt".
How do "bayt" and "uninhabited bayt" give the same meaning?
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samia-
Don't start dancing again. It was ur entreaty that u be shown a verse where bayt is physical I responded to ur plea, & also provided other evidence. Provide similar evidence that it cannot be a physical place, or admit that u made yet another mistake.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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samia-
Don't start dancing again. It was ur entreaty that u be shown a verse where bayt is physical I responded to ur plea, & also provided other evidence. Provide similar evidence that it cannot be a physical place, or admit that u made yet another mistake.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
You rephrased (people of the house people associated with the house) but my question was what is the meaning of ahl albayt.
And I did not say it cannot be a physical place.
And stop being rude. -
samia-And I did not say it cannot be a physical place.
samia-Show me "bayt" in the quraan not referring to household when physical.
Read that. Now admit a third mistake -- that u made a claim, & then pretended to have never made that claim.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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samia-And I did not say it cannot be a physical place.
samia-Show me "bayt" in the quraan not referring to household when physical.
Read that. Now admit a third mistake -- that u made a claim, & then pretended to have never made that claim.
This line (underlined) does not mean bayt cannot be a physical place
Moreover, this is my first post regarding this topicThere's no "house". A house is a physical structure that can be empty (like the black room in Makkah), but a "bayt" can't be empty, and is not necessarily a physical structure, otherwise, how many rooms are there in the bayt of "al albayt"? So, no physical place either. The "bayt" of God is the main concept of His system and his whereabouts is where there's "no shirk" (6151-153).
Now, are you telling me that (is not necessarily a physical structure) has the same meaning as (cannot be a physical place)?
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samia-This line (underlined) does not mean bayt cannot be a physical place
- What does it mean? That u were unsure about its application in the quraan? & If u knew, like u seem to imply from ur quote, why did u ask for a verse to prove it?
-Now, are you telling me that (is not necessarily a physical structure) has the same meaning as (cannot be a physical place)?
- I considered it, & found ur statement (to be) ambiguous, which is why I waited till u came up with "Show me "bayt" in the quraan not referring to household when physical."
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
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belh-
Moses existed before solomon & the temple of jerusalem.
The jews consider the rock in the temple their focal point. How many times should it be said that temple/rock is in jerusalem, while those tombs which u talk about are in hebron? Please read my last post regarding the tombs & the rock, & clarify whether it is hebron or jerusalem that u take as ur focal point.
ma'a salaam.
God bless all.
al'hamd li Allaah Rabb al'aalameen
thegod, I know that Moses came before David.
My Question is, if these Prophets and Messengers (Moses, Jesus, David, Salomon, Yahia, Zakria) are moslems (as you said and I agreed), why did they Choose a Focal Point that is not Mecca?
The point about hebron and Jerusalem will be dealt with after we finish with the above point.