observation on 17:78...
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Thanks Wakas, but I'm still confused about the second question.
Is it possible that the command in 1778 was for Muhammad only? Is there any indication in the Arabic that would differentiate this. For example, 1779 used the word "thy" instead of the plural form "you". Thus, the antecedent to "thy" would be Muhammad. Is there any similar indication for 1778?
To me it seems that the verses sorrounding 1778 are specific for Muhammad.
YA
73 - And their purpose was to tempt thee away from that which We had revealed unto thee, to substitute in our name something quite different; (in that case), behold! they would certainly have made thee (their) friend!
74 -And had We not given thee strength, thou wouldst nearly have inclined to them a little.
75 - In that case We should have made thee taste an equal portion (of punishment) in this life, and an equal portion in death and moreover thou wouldst have found none to help thee against Us!
76 - Their purpose was to scare thee off the land, in order to expel thee; but in that case they would not have stayed (therein) after thee, except for a little while.
77 - (This was Our) way with the messengers We sent before thee thou wilt find no change in Our ways.
78 - Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.
79 - And pray in the small watches of the morning (it would be) an additional prayer (or spiritual profit) for thee soon will thy Lord raise thee to a Station of Praise and Glory!
80 - Say "O my Lord! Let my entry be by the Gate of Truth and Honour, and likewise my exit by the Gate of Truth and Honour; and grant me from Thy Presence an authority to aid (me)."To me it seems like these verses are personal communication from God to Muhammad. God starts off by letting Muhammad know that it was He that helped him during his times of persecution. Then, it commands Muhammad to perform the "reading at dawn.
It makes sense to me that Muhammad in particular was commanded to recite the Quran at dawn. He was responisble for delivering the message.
I had a random thought, is it possible that the "recitation at dawn" refers to copying the Quran down in writing? Perhaps (if this is a command for Muhammad only) this verse refers to the act of using scribes to record Quran, as Muhammad recited the Quran (at dawn).As I understand it, there is no extra-quranic communication between Muhammad and God. Thus, if there were commands specific for Muhammad they would be imbedded in the Quran. (ex 3350, "...any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large)"
Do you see any validity to this interpertation?
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And one more thing...
"...The reading at dawn is always witnessed"
Witnessed by whom? Scribes? God? God witnessess EVERYTHING always for any event.
Maybe this part of the verse indicated to Muhammad that the "recitation at dawn" is to be witnessed (i.e., scribes)?
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Peace
And one more thing...
"...The reading at dawn is always witnessed"
Witnessed by whom? Scribes? God? God witnessess EVERYTHING always for any event.
Maybe this part of the verse indicated to Muhammad that the "recitation at dawn" is to be witnessed (i.e., scribes)?
according to my humble knowledge of arabic inna quranal fajri kana mashuda could read as "the dawn`s reading will be witnessed!" meaning exactly as you put it -is to be witnessed....a kind of imperative to people to visit and hear reciting of the revelation...i also remember anwar goins one of the most knowledgeable of "quranists" in arabic i ever met claimed this (only the grammar part)....
best wishes, Zlatan
p.s. i think , if i am not mistaken that such a construction is also characteristic of english language..can anyone confirm this?
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a kind of imperative to people to visit and hear reciting of the revelation
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Is this imperative directed at Muhammad only? It seems so to me.
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What significane does the Arabic word for "witnessed" have? In English, for example, witness/witnessed
-One who can give a firsthand account of something seen, heard, or experienced
-To attest to the legality or authenticity of by signing one's name to
-To be present at or have personal knowledge of
For example, when signing important legal documents, typically a notary public is required to witness the signing.- Who is the witness?
...imperative to people to visit
Is this an imperative for all people in general to act as the witnesses?- Again, i need some Arabic help. What is the word translated as "reading/recitation"? Could it mean something like written/recorded?
In English it does not. Recitation means "The act of reciting memorized materials in a public performance"
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peace ams,
I was implying that whether 1779 is addressed to Muhammad or not may not be relevant, considering the command is optional due to the word NFL being used. In any case, I believe sister Marie pointed out it is indeed in the singular "you", see
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1695The word used in 1778 is "qurana". Theoretically it could mean any of the QRA root meanings*. I have heard it being suggested that it means "compilation/collection". This is an interesting view, however I'm not sure if significant evidence exists to swing one meaning (i.e. reading) over the other (i.e. compilation/collection).
*compilation, collection, reading, recitation, explanation, study, investigation.
Wakas
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Peace brother Wakas,
The word used in 1778 is "qurana". Theoretically it could mean any of the QRA root meanings*. I have heard it being suggested that it means "compilation/collection". This is an interesting view, however I'm not sure if significant evidence exists to swing one meaning (i.e. reading) over the other (i.e. compilation/collection).
*compilation, collection, reading, recitation, explanation, study, investigation.
I suggest that people see what meaning fits best in all the verses. For example, one can easily compare the following and see which is correct and which is not logical
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And when the compilation is compiled listen to it and pay attention...
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And when the reading is read listen to it and pay attention...
Clearly, in the context of "listening and paying attention" reading is logical while compilation doesn't make any sense.
Here is another example
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and when the compilation is compiled on them they don't prostrate/hear and obey
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and when the reading is read on them they don't prostrate/hear and obey
Clearly, "the compilation is compiled on them" is pure nonsense while "the reading is read on them" is logical.
You can look at many other verses such as 1745-47 where like 8421 the meaning of compilation leads to nonsense and 7517 where the synonyms compilation and gatheirng being together leads to illogical redundancy.
I advise people here not to accept the dictionaries as perfect. The dictionaries contain many errors and misclassifications. Hence, must be used intelligently while knowing their limitations.
For example, the word quru' in 2228 is misclassified under Q-R-'A when it should be under Q-R-W. The word quru' is where the wrong meaning of "quran" as "gathering/compilation" seems to have arose out of.
At any rate, translating "quran" as "compilation" is better than not translating it at all. Although for now some people are not aware or don't yet see the logical errors created by such translation, eventually, people will come to see what meaning fits better in all the verses. But if they didn't translate it then there is no chance of ever seeing the error in their understanding.
I hope this helps.
Peace and all besy wishes,
Ayman
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peace someone,
I agree that "doolouk ash-shams" can mean other than "sunset" but this is its meaning given in Lane.
Wakas
If Lane says that "Salat" means "robbing other people", do you believe it?
My understanding is that it means early afternoon/noon. Allah could have used the word "Zuhr" and that means when the Sun is at its highest point, but instead he uses "liduluki ash-shamsi", which means " at the declining of the sun". This means after the sun begins to decline, which is the early afternoon.
If it would mean sunset, then the words "ghrubi ash-shamsi" would be used, since that means sunset and is UNAMBIGIOUS.
Therefore, (IMO) "liduluki ash-shamsi" means the declining of the sun at noon/early afternoon making it the noon prayer.
Remember 6210, which talks about observing the Friday prayer and the "dropping off business" before it and then returning from the prayer. This means that is in the middle of the day.
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If Lane says that "Salat" means "robbing other people", do you believe it?
If Lane says that "salat" means "prayer", do you believe it?
Dont forget the other meanings listed in Lane, and I'm sure many other Classical Arabic dictionaries rubbing, squeezing, pressing, become red, set. All of which favour the sunset meaning, not from the zenith meaning.
My understanding is that it means early afternoon/noon. Allah could have used the word "Zuhr" and that means when the Sun is at its highest point, but instead he uses "liduluki ash-shamsi", which means " at the declining of the sun". This means after the sun begins to decline, which is the early afternoon.
If it would mean sunset, then the words "ghrubi ash-shamsi" would be used, since that means sunset and is UNAMBIGIOUS.
Tell us, is "ghrubi ash-shamsi" used in Al Quran? If so, where? And if it means "sunset", does it mean from when the sun begins to decline below the horizon or when it has set?
Therefore, (IMO) "liduluki ash-shamsi" means the declining of the sun at noon/early afternoon making it the noon prayer.
The verse says lidulooki alshshamsi ila (to) ghasaqi (darkness of) al layli (the night)
Noon prayer till night? That's one long definition of noon.
Remember 6210, which talks about observing the Friday prayer and the "dropping off business" before it and then returning from the prayer. This means that is in the middle of the day.
Friday prayer? Proof? "this means that is in the middle of the day"? Proof?
Have you read the past discussion on the forum?
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In any case, now that this thread has been brought back up, I noticed no-one really answered the original question. Are there no other specific daily tasks required of us in Al Quran? If so, is it just a big coincidence salat al fajr coincides with quran al fajr?
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If Lane says that "salat" means "prayer", do you believe it?
I don't look at the Lane and don't follow it.
Tell us, is "ghrubi ash-shamsi" used in Al Quran? If so, where? And if it means "sunset", does it mean from when the sun begins to decline below the horizon or when it has set?
Now, first of all, if it would mean "the redness at the end of sunset" then the following words would be used as in
8416 - But nay! I swear by the sunset rednessNotice that "shafaq" is used in the original arabic. This is exactly describing the the redness of the sky at the end of sunset, which is the prayer that you pray (next to the dawn prayer). If God would want to us to do this in 1778, he would gave used "shafaq" or "ghurub", which mean "redness of sky" (at sunset/dusk) and "sunset", respectively.
To answer your other challenge (quoting verses where "ghurub or ghrubi ash-shamsi", which means sunset, is used) I will quote for you the following verse(20130)
Bear then patiently what they say, and glorify your Lord by the praising of Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting, and during hours of the night do also glorify (Him) and during parts of the day, that you may be well pleased.
The transliteration is Fbir
Al? M Yaqlna Wa Sabbi Biamdi Rabbika Qabla uli Ash-Shamsi Wa Qabla Ghurbih Wa Min 'n'i Al-Layli Fasabbi Wa 'Arfa An-Nahri La`allaka Tar?Is this enough or do you need more verses? It clearly says "before the SETTING OF THE SUN" and it uses the words "ghurubiha" and "shams" (sunset and sun).
If this is still not enough, then look at 5039
Therefore be patient of what they say, and sing the praise of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting.
Transliteration Fbir
Al? M Yaqlna Wa Sabbi Biamdi Rabbika Qabla uli Ash-Shamsi Wa Qabla Al-GhurbiGhrubi ash-shamsi/ghurub not used?! I gave you the evidence that it is used.
BTW notice the similarity between "maGHRIB" and "GHURUB" both have "GHRB" in common.
The verse says lidulooki alshshamsi ila (to) ghasaqi (darkness of) al layli (the night)
Noon prayer till night? That's one long definition of noon.
"lidulooki ash-shamsi" means "AT the declining of the sun." And from the PROOFS I have listed above, we can deduct that that "dulook al-shams" is NOT at dusk. Think about it the sun STARTS to decline just after noon. lets say that this is at 1200 o'clock. at 1221 it is still declining. Guess what.. at 1415 it is STILL declining..wow..great, huh?
Besides kidding around with you I am just telling you that the sun is declining BEFORE SUNSET. The sun doesnt shift down 20 degrees magically at 1900 o'clock (7 pm). It takes time to decline.
As for the "untill"... I think you already had that answered by hflatif or so. i cant remember the name totally, but its somewhere at freewebs.com/tawhiyd. The person explained that "salaat" is an activity noun in arabic just like sawm, and it is used in the singular when describing a time range whereas it can still mean more than one within that time range. please ask Al-Khidr for more info. I'm not quite sure, but it could have been you that was discussing about that.
Friday prayer? Proof? "this means that is in the middle of the day"? Proof?
Look at my post at "the congregational prayer".
I'm looking forward to your further input.
Peace -
peace,
Now, first of all, if it would mean "the redness at the end of sunset" then the following words would be used as in
8416 - But nay! I swear by the sunset rednessNotice that "shafaq" is used in the original arabic. This is exactly describing the the redness of the sky at the end of sunset, which is the prayer that you pray (next to the dawn prayer). If God would want to us to do this in 1778, he would gave used "shafaq" or "ghurub", which mean "redness of sky" (at sunset/dusk) and "sunset", respectively.
Now, first of all, if anyone has ever witnessed a sunset, they will know there is redness in the sky at the beginning of a sunset, during and at the end.
Classical Arabic Dictionaries (CAD) state shafaq - evening, twilight with its redness or whiteness, after sunset. It may even be defined better in other CAD.
So, tell us how you determined it meant "redness of the sky at the end of sunset"?
To answer your other challenge (quoting verses where "ghurub or ghrubi ash-shamsi", which means sunset, is used) I will quote for you the following verse(20130)
I like the way you re-word my challenge, so you can actually provide an answer. ;D I knew what you were trying/meant to say though.
If it would mean sunset, then the words "ghrubi ash-shamsi" would be used, since that means sunset and is UNAMBIGIOUS.
...and it uses the words "ghurubiha" and "shams" (sunset and sun).
So, which means sunset according to you then "ghrubi ash-shamsi" or "ghurubiha"?
Based on the referenced verses you brought it seems that the so-called "UNAMBIGIOUS" phrase that you want to appear in 1778 does not appear anywhere in Al Quran (AQ).
"lidulooki ash-shamsi" means "AT the declining of the sun." And from the PROOFS I have listed above, we can deduct that that "dulook al-shams" is NOT at dusk.
I must have missed these "PROOFS", can you clarify where they were?
Think about it the sun STARTS to decline just after noon. lets say that this is at 1200 o'clock. at 1221 it is still declining. Guess what.. at 1415 it is STILL declining..wow..great, huh?
Besides kidding around with you I am just telling you that the sun is declining BEFORE SUNSET. The sun doesnt shift down 20 degrees magically at 1900 o'clock (7 pm). It takes time to decline.
I am not disputing the sun does not begin to decline after noon. I agree that it is a possibility, it is simply a matter of weighing up which possibility is strongest.
As for the "untill"... I think you already had that answered by hflatif or so. i cant remember the name totally, but its somewhere at freewebs.com/tawhiyd. The person explained that "salaat" is an activity noun in arabic just like sawm, and it is used in the singular when describing a time range whereas it can still mean more than one within that time range.
Ahh, so if AQ meant ABC (Re 8416) it would have said ABC, but when it means plural it actually means singular? Is this your inconsistant/contradictory argument?
Look at my post at "the congregational prayer".
I have seen it.
See http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387As I suggested to you earlier, I recommend reading past discussion on the forum with regard to these points. They have been analysed in significant detail, much more so than recently.
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@ wakas
You said Now, first of all, if anyone has ever witnessed a sunset, they will know there is redness in the sky at the beginning of a sunset, during and at the end.
First of all, nice pun!
But now lets get to the point...
You are right with that statement quoted above, but shafaq is when the sun has gone below the horizon and there is still redness in the sky, which, I assume, is the time you pray your dusk prayer and it is also the time the Shia pray their Maghrib prayer.
You have said So, tell us how you determined it meant "redness of the sky at the end of sunset"?
What I meant was when the sun has set, but there is still redness in the sky. Its the time when Shias pray Maghrib. look at my above statement.
I quote from your last post I like the way you re-word my challenge, so you can actually provide an answer. I knew what you were trying/meant to say though.
You did challenge me.. this is a quote from your second-last post Tell us, is "ghrubi ash-shamsi" used in Al Quran? If so, where? And if it means "sunset", does it mean from when the sun begins to decline below the horizon or when it has set?
So..did you challenge me or not?
But you still objected and said
Based on the referenced verses you brought it seems that the so-called "UNAMBIGIOUS" phrase that you want to appear in 1778 does not appear anywhere in Al Quran (AQ).Well, check my statement above or in my previous posts and you will understand.
Ok.. next point..
You have said So, which means sunset according to you then "ghrubi ash-shamsi" or "ghurubiha"?
Maybe you understood me wrong or maybe I wasnt really clear. So... "ghurub" means "sunset" and "ghrubi ash-shamisi" means "setting of the sun". Is there an important difference? No.
Next point...
You have said I am not disputing the sun does not begin to decline after noon. I agree that it is a possibility, it is simply a matter of weighing up which possibility is strongest.
So then why dont you accept "the DECLINING of the sun" as at noon? It does not say sunset. the sun declines at noon like you have acknowledged.
You have said Ahh, so if AQ meant ABC (Re 8416) it would have said ABC, but when it means plural it actually means singular? Is this your inconsistant/contradictory argument?
Please clarify this.
You have said I must have missed these "PROOFS"
You have... if you need more clarification after this post please let me know.
Next point..
When referring to my post at "the congregational salaat", you have said I have seen it.
Ok..what is your opinion?
And about your post..i havent quite looked at the whole thing that "damon" wrote, but leaving business to go to prayer and then going back to everday life indicates that it is in the middle of the day, or did the Arabs back then do all the trading at night without light? Furthermore..do you work at night or at day? right... so we are to leave the business at midday to go to congr. prayer and then we can return. clear enough? If you have a different view, please clarify.
Peace, wakas
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I like the explanation used by "Someone", that it just means when the sun is travelling across the sky. This implies that it is daytime. So we have 3 timings given in that verse
- Mid-day, afternoon (while the Sun is moving during the daytime) until...
- The darkness of the night, and finally...
- The Quran at dawn (which implies the prayer at dawn)
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peace,
You are right with that statement quoted above, but shafaq is when the sun has gone below the horizon and there is still redness in the sky, which, I assume, is the time you pray your dusk prayer and it is also the time the Shia pray their Maghrib prayer.
You have said So, tell us how you determined it meant "redness of the sky at the end of sunset"?
What I meant was when the sun has set, but there is still redness in the sky. Its the time when Shias pray Maghrib. look at my above statement.
So, you acknowledge there is a difference between
"dulook as-shams" if taken to mean start of sunset, i.e. rubbing/pressing of horizon, when it goes red etc.
AND
"shafaq" which is after sunset when redness is still in sky
?Second point, what is your difference between "ghurub" or "ghurub ash-shams" and shafaq?
So..did you challenge me or not?
Did I question that I challenged you or not? No. I clearly referred to you re-wording my challenge so you could provide an answer. (note word in bold). To put it obviously you said "ghurub as-shams" is UNAMBIGIOUS and would have been used if sunset was meant, then presented no verse from AQ with this phrase, but a combination of the words.
So then why dont you accept "the DECLINING of the sun" as at noon? It does not say sunset. the sun declines at noon like you have acknowledged.
I dont accept it because it is not the strongest option in terms of evidence. Simple.
I try to speak with accuracy, thus if I say something is possible, that's all it means, no more.You have said Ahh, so if AQ meant ABC (Re 8416) it would have said ABC, but when it means plural it actually means singular? Is this your inconsistant/contradictory argument?
Please clarify this.
My point was you said if AQ meant what I think it means, it would have said something different, hence your reference of shafaq, but when it comes to singular/plural, you disregard your own argument and say it actually means plural when it says singular here, i.e. contradiciton/inconsistant.
When referring to my post at "the congregational salaat", you have said I have seen it.
Ok..what is your opinion?
Weak out of the options.
And about your post..i havent quite looked at the whole thing that "damon" wrote, but leaving business to go to prayer and then going back to everday life indicates that it is in the middle of the day, or did the Arabs back then do all the trading at night without light? Furthermore..do you work at night or at day? right... so we are to leave the business at midday to go to congr. prayer and then we can return. clear enough? If you have a different view, please clarify.
More accurately, one can say its during the day, there is no evidence for midday exactly.
I recommend reading past threads.
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peace,
So, you acknowledge there is a difference between
"dulook as-shams" if taken to mean start of sunset, i.e. rubbing/pressing of horizon, when it goes red etc.
AND
"shafaq" which is after sunset when redness is still in sky
?IF taken as sunset, then yes, but dont you pray around that time? when exactly do you do your Isha salat? when there is no more light in the sky or when the sun is beyond the horizon? ...explain
Second point, what is your difference between "ghurub" or "ghurub ash-shams" and shafaq?
There is no "MY DIFFERENCE" there is only "THE DIFFERENCE"
I told you that there was not an important/big difference of "ghrubi ash-shams" and "ghurub". The difference in superfluous and they both refer to the period called sunset. "Shafaq" is AFTER the setting of the sun (after "ghrubi ash-shamsi", but BEFORE the (pitch)-darkness of the night. So basically when the sun is beyond the horizon, but the sky is still a bit reddish.
Did I question that I challenged you or not? No. I clearly referred to you re-wording my challenge so you could provide an answer. (note word in bold). To put it obviously you said "ghurub as-shams" is UNAMBIGIOUS and would have been used if sunset was meant, then presented no verse from AQ with this phrase, but a combination of the words.
I presented enough verses, but you have disregarded them
My point was you said if AQ meant what I think it means, it would have said something different, hence your reference of shafaq, but when it comes to singular/plural, you disregard your own argument and say it actually means plural when it says singular here, i.e. contradiciton/inconsistant.
The other people which you have already talked to have explained it, but now i am also thinking again that it is only one.
Weak out of the options.
Why?? Is your opinion the ultimate one, which we all have to adhere to? Don't just say it's weak without giving any reason.
More accurately, one can say its during the day, there is no evidence for midday exactly.
Maybe no evidence that it is EXACTLY during the middle of the day, but DEFINITELY evidence that it is DURING the day.
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Salaam
Mashallah nice /interesting discussion is going on. Just one clarification.The word does mean ?to rub? and it NO has infolded meaning of Horizon. The action rubbing depends upon the object this verb takes like
= He rubbed the cloth
= He rubbed the corn ear
= He rubbed his eyes
= The woman rubbed the flour i.e kneaded
= I rubbed the sandal with the earth .So in the phrase it can be
- -Rubbing of the Zenith i.e declination at the time of noon
- -Rubbing of the horizon i.e Sunset
Arabs take both meanings.
Regards
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peace,
IF taken as sunset, then yes,
Thanks for clarifying they can mean different things.
but dont you pray around that time? when exactly do you do your Isha salat? when there is no more light in the sky or when the sun is beyond the horizon? ...explain
It seems there is confusion. I assumed you had read past threads discussing timing. I can assure you, they are more detailed than any discussions I have seen recently, hence referring you to them. To clarify
According to my studies so far, salat al isha is when the sun first begins to decline below the horizon until darkness of night/layl
I presented enough verses, but you have disregarded them
I never disregarded them. I simply pointed out you claimed there was an UNAMBIGUIOUS phrase that could have been used, then presented no evidence from AQ for it. No more, no less. My point was your so-called unambiguious phrase is not used and does not distinguish the starting point. In hindsight, it now seems you were unaware of the starting point I was referring to, i.e. you may have taken sunset to mean when the sun has set fully.
The other people which you have already talked to have explained it, but now i am also thinking again that it is only one.
People can explain away many things, evidence is another matter. All it comes down to is weighing of evidence and opting for the strongest option.
Why?? Is your opinion the ultimate one, which we all have to adhere to? Don't just say it's weak without giving any reason.
Is your opinion the ultimate one, which we all have to adhere to?
Perhaps if you read the post I have taken time to find and refer you to, you might find a reason.
Maybe no evidence that it is EXACTLY during the middle of the day, but DEFINITELY evidence that it is DURING the day.
There is zero evidence for it being the middle of the day. That was a complete forcing of a pre-conceived notion onto the verse.
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peace Q,
I find it hard to imagine anyone would give a meaning of "rubbing of the zenith".
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Salaam Brother Wakas
You are right to say thatI find it hard to imagine anyone would give a meaning of "rubbing of the zenith".
Exactly the same can be said what you put about its meaning
So, you acknowledge there is a difference between
"dulook as-shams" if taken to mean start of sunset, i.e. rubbing/pressing of horizon, when it goes red etc.Dalook ul Shams means
-Time of sunset
-Time of declination at noon.
Reference
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000072.pdf
Regards -
peace,
What I mean is it is easy to see how someone can give a meaning of rubbing/pressing of the horizon, as this can be seen to be taking place from our vision, but I think it is very unlikely someone would give a meaning of "rubbing/pressing of the zenith" as it is not obvious to the eye.
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"He revealed to you this scripture, consisting of straightforward verses, which are the essence of the scripture, as well as multiple-meaning verses..." (37)
We might not come to a mutual opinion, although I am thinking about your opinion and its validity. Therefor, I think we can stop arguing about the exact meaning. If you have found some more evidence, then plese share it with me (and with the others). And if anyone knows hebrew that person should post its meaning of "duluk" on this thread (since arabic and hebrew are similar, there might be such a word).
I think we can conclude that "duluk al-shams" can mean the following
- The movement of the Sun through the sky
- The declining of the Sun from its highest point at mid-day
- The setting of the Sun (around dusk)
Peace
Peace
