observation on 17:78...

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

If Lane says that "salat" means "prayer", do you believe it?

I don't look at the Lane and don't follow it.

Tell us, is "ghrubi ash-shamsi" used in Al Quran? If so, where? And if it means "sunset", does it mean from when the sun begins to decline below the horizon or when it has set?

Now, first of all, if it would mean "the redness at the end of sunset" then the following words would be used as in
8416 - But nay! I swear by the sunset redness

Notice that "shafaq" is used in the original arabic. This is exactly describing the the redness of the sky at the end of sunset, which is the prayer that you pray (next to the dawn prayer). If God would want to us to do this in 1778, he would gave used "shafaq" or "ghurub", which mean "redness of sky" (at sunset/dusk) and "sunset", respectively.

To answer your other challenge (quoting verses where "ghurub or ghrubi ash-shamsi", which means sunset, is used) I will quote for you the following verse(20130)

Bear then patiently what they say, and glorify your Lord by the praising of Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting, and during hours of the night do also glorify (Him) and during parts of the day, that you may be well pleased.

The transliteration is Fbir Al? M Yaqlna Wa Sabbi Biamdi Rabbika Qabla uli Ash-Shamsi Wa Qabla Ghurbih Wa Min 'n'i Al-Layli Fasabbi Wa 'Arfa An-Nahri La`allaka Tar?

Is this enough or do you need more verses? It clearly says "before the SETTING OF THE SUN" and it uses the words "ghurubiha" and "shams" (sunset and sun).

If this is still not enough, then look at 5039

Therefore be patient of what they say, and sing the praise of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before the setting.

Transliteration Fbir Al? M Yaqlna Wa Sabbi Biamdi Rabbika Qabla uli Ash-Shamsi Wa Qabla Al-Ghurbi

Ghrubi ash-shamsi/ghurub not used?! I gave you the evidence that it is used.

BTW notice the similarity between "maGHRIB" and "GHURUB" both have "GHRB" in common.

The verse says lidulooki alshshamsi ila (to) ghasaqi (darkness of) al layli (the night)

Noon prayer till night? That's one long definition of noon.

"lidulooki ash-shamsi" means "AT the declining of the sun." And from the PROOFS I have listed above, we can deduct that that "dulook al-shams" is NOT at dusk. Think about it the sun STARTS to decline just after noon. lets say that this is at 1200 o'clock. at 1221 it is still declining. Guess what.. at 1415 it is STILL declining..wow..great, huh?

Besides kidding around with you I am just telling you that the sun is declining BEFORE SUNSET. The sun doesnt shift down 20 degrees magically at 1900 o'clock (7 pm). It takes time to decline.

As for the "untill"... I think you already had that answered by hflatif or so. i cant remember the name totally, but its somewhere at freewebs.com/tawhiyd. The person explained that "salaat" is an activity noun in arabic just like sawm, and it is used in the singular when describing a time range whereas it can still mean more than one within that time range. please ask Al-Khidr for more info. I'm not quite sure, but it could have been you that was discussing about that.

Friday prayer? Proof? "this means that is in the middle of the day"? Proof?

Look at my post at "the congregational prayer".

I'm looking forward to your further input.
Peace

Wakas

peace,

Now, first of all, if it would mean "the redness at the end of sunset" then the following words would be used as in
8416 - But nay! I swear by the sunset redness

Notice that "shafaq" is used in the original arabic. This is exactly describing the the redness of the sky at the end of sunset, which is the prayer that you pray (next to the dawn prayer). If God would want to us to do this in 1778, he would gave used "shafaq" or "ghurub", which mean "redness of sky" (at sunset/dusk) and "sunset", respectively.

Now, first of all, if anyone has ever witnessed a sunset, they will know there is redness in the sky at the beginning of a sunset, during and at the end.

Classical Arabic Dictionaries (CAD) state shafaq - evening, twilight with its redness or whiteness, after sunset. It may even be defined better in other CAD.

So, tell us how you determined it meant "redness of the sky at the end of sunset"?

To answer your other challenge (quoting verses where "ghurub or ghrubi ash-shamsi", which means sunset, is used) I will quote for you the following verse(20130)

I like the way you re-word my challenge, so you can actually provide an answer. ;D I knew what you were trying/meant to say though.

If it would mean sunset, then the words "ghrubi ash-shamsi" would be used, since that means sunset and is UNAMBIGIOUS.

...and it uses the words "ghurubiha" and "shams" (sunset and sun).

So, which means sunset according to you then "ghrubi ash-shamsi" or "ghurubiha"?

Based on the referenced verses you brought it seems that the so-called "UNAMBIGIOUS" phrase that you want to appear in 1778 does not appear anywhere in Al Quran (AQ).

"lidulooki ash-shamsi" means "AT the declining of the sun." And from the PROOFS I have listed above, we can deduct that that "dulook al-shams" is NOT at dusk.

I must have missed these "PROOFS", can you clarify where they were?

Think about it the sun STARTS to decline just after noon. lets say that this is at 1200 o'clock. at 1221 it is still declining. Guess what.. at 1415 it is STILL declining..wow..great, huh?

Besides kidding around with you I am just telling you that the sun is declining BEFORE SUNSET. The sun doesnt shift down 20 degrees magically at 1900 o'clock (7 pm). It takes time to decline.

I am not disputing the sun does not begin to decline after noon. I agree that it is a possibility, it is simply a matter of weighing up which possibility is strongest.

As for the "untill"... I think you already had that answered by hflatif or so. i cant remember the name totally, but its somewhere at freewebs.com/tawhiyd. The person explained that "salaat" is an activity noun in arabic just like sawm, and it is used in the singular when describing a time range whereas it can still mean more than one within that time range.

Ahh, so if AQ meant ABC (Re 8416) it would have said ABC, but when it means plural it actually means singular? Is this your inconsistant/contradictory argument?

Look at my post at "the congregational prayer".

I have seen it.
See http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387

As I suggested to you earlier, I recommend reading past discussion on the forum with regard to these points. They have been analysed in significant detail, much more so than recently.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

@ wakas

You said Now, first of all, if anyone has ever witnessed a sunset, they will know there is redness in the sky at the beginning of a sunset, during and at the end.

First of all, nice pun!

But now lets get to the point...

You are right with that statement quoted above, but shafaq is when the sun has gone below the horizon and there is still redness in the sky, which, I assume, is the time you pray your dusk prayer and it is also the time the Shia pray their Maghrib prayer.

You have said So, tell us how you determined it meant "redness of the sky at the end of sunset"?

What I meant was when the sun has set, but there is still redness in the sky. Its the time when Shias pray Maghrib. look at my above statement.

I quote from your last post I like the way you re-word my challenge, so you can actually provide an answer. I knew what you were trying/meant to say though.

You did challenge me.. this is a quote from your second-last post Tell us, is "ghrubi ash-shamsi" used in Al Quran? If so, where? And if it means "sunset", does it mean from when the sun begins to decline below the horizon or when it has set?

So..did you challenge me or not?

But you still objected and said
Based on the referenced verses you brought it seems that the so-called "UNAMBIGIOUS" phrase that you want to appear in 1778 does not appear anywhere in Al Quran (AQ).

Well, check my statement above or in my previous posts and you will understand.

Ok.. next point..

You have said So, which means sunset according to you then "ghrubi ash-shamsi" or "ghurubiha"?

Maybe you understood me wrong or maybe I wasnt really clear. So... "ghurub" means "sunset" and "ghrubi ash-shamisi" means "setting of the sun". Is there an important difference? No.

Next point...

You have said I am not disputing the sun does not begin to decline after noon. I agree that it is a possibility, it is simply a matter of weighing up which possibility is strongest.

So then why dont you accept "the DECLINING of the sun" as at noon? It does not say sunset. the sun declines at noon like you have acknowledged.

You have said Ahh, so if AQ meant ABC (Re 8416) it would have said ABC, but when it means plural it actually means singular? Is this your inconsistant/contradictory argument?

Please clarify this.

You have said I must have missed these "PROOFS"

You have... if you need more clarification after this post please let me know.

Next point..

When referring to my post at "the congregational salaat", you have said I have seen it.

Ok..what is your opinion?

And about your post..i havent quite looked at the whole thing that "damon" wrote, but leaving business to go to prayer and then going back to everday life indicates that it is in the middle of the day, or did the Arabs back then do all the trading at night without light? Furthermore..do you work at night or at day? right... so we are to leave the business at midday to go to congr. prayer and then we can return. clear enough? If you have a different view, please clarify.

Peace, wakas

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

I like the explanation used by "Someone", that it just means when the sun is travelling across the sky. This implies that it is daytime. So we have 3 timings given in that verse

Mid-day, afternoon (while the Sun is moving during the daytime) until...
The darkness of the night, and finally...
The Quran at dawn (which implies the prayer at dawn)

Wakas

peace,

You are right with that statement quoted above, but shafaq is when the sun has gone below the horizon and there is still redness in the sky, which, I assume, is the time you pray your dusk prayer and it is also the time the Shia pray their Maghrib prayer.

You have said So, tell us how you determined it meant "redness of the sky at the end of sunset"?

What I meant was when the sun has set, but there is still redness in the sky. Its the time when Shias pray Maghrib. look at my above statement.

So, you acknowledge there is a difference between
"dulook as-shams" if taken to mean start of sunset, i.e. rubbing/pressing of horizon, when it goes red etc.
AND
"shafaq" which is after sunset when redness is still in sky
?

Second point, what is your difference between "ghurub" or "ghurub ash-shams" and shafaq?

So..did you challenge me or not?

Did I question that I challenged you or not? No. I clearly referred to you re-wording my challenge so you could provide an answer. (note word in bold). To put it obviously you said "ghurub as-shams" is UNAMBIGIOUS and would have been used if sunset was meant, then presented no verse from AQ with this phrase, but a combination of the words.

So then why dont you accept "the DECLINING of the sun" as at noon? It does not say sunset. the sun declines at noon like you have acknowledged.

I dont accept it because it is not the strongest option in terms of evidence. Simple.
I try to speak with accuracy, thus if I say something is possible, that's all it means, no more.

You have said Ahh, so if AQ meant ABC (Re 8416) it would have said ABC, but when it means plural it actually means singular? Is this your inconsistant/contradictory argument?

Please clarify this.

My point was you said if AQ meant what I think it means, it would have said something different, hence your reference of shafaq, but when it comes to singular/plural, you disregard your own argument and say it actually means plural when it says singular here, i.e. contradiciton/inconsistant.

When referring to my post at "the congregational salaat", you have said I have seen it.

Ok..what is your opinion?

Weak out of the options.

And about your post..i havent quite looked at the whole thing that "damon" wrote, but leaving business to go to prayer and then going back to everday life indicates that it is in the middle of the day, or did the Arabs back then do all the trading at night without light? Furthermore..do you work at night or at day? right... so we are to leave the business at midday to go to congr. prayer and then we can return. clear enough? If you have a different view, please clarify.

More accurately, one can say its during the day, there is no evidence for midday exactly.

I recommend reading past threads.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

peace,

So, you acknowledge there is a difference between
"dulook as-shams" if taken to mean start of sunset, i.e. rubbing/pressing of horizon, when it goes red etc.
AND
"shafaq" which is after sunset when redness is still in sky
?

IF taken as sunset, then yes, but dont you pray around that time? when exactly do you do your Isha salat? when there is no more light in the sky or when the sun is beyond the horizon? ...explain

Second point, what is your difference between "ghurub" or "ghurub ash-shams" and shafaq?

There is no "MY DIFFERENCE" there is only "THE DIFFERENCE"

I told you that there was not an important/big difference of "ghrubi ash-shams" and "ghurub". The difference in superfluous and they both refer to the period called sunset. "Shafaq" is AFTER the setting of the sun (after "ghrubi ash-shamsi&quot, but BEFORE the (pitch)-darkness of the night. So basically when the sun is beyond the horizon, but the sky is still a bit reddish.

Did I question that I challenged you or not? No. I clearly referred to you re-wording my challenge so you could provide an answer. (note word in bold). To put it obviously you said "ghurub as-shams" is UNAMBIGIOUS and would have been used if sunset was meant, then presented no verse from AQ with this phrase, but a combination of the words.

I presented enough verses, but you have disregarded them

My point was you said if AQ meant what I think it means, it would have said something different, hence your reference of shafaq, but when it comes to singular/plural, you disregard your own argument and say it actually means plural when it says singular here, i.e. contradiciton/inconsistant.

The other people which you have already talked to have explained it, but now i am also thinking again that it is only one.

Weak out of the options.

Why?? Is your opinion the ultimate one, which we all have to adhere to? Don't just say it's weak without giving any reason.

More accurately, one can say its during the day, there is no evidence for midday exactly.

Maybe no evidence that it is EXACTLY during the middle of the day, but DEFINITELY evidence that it is DURING the day.

Q_student

Salaam
Mashallah nice /interesting discussion is going on. Just one clarification.

The word does mean ?to rub? and it NO has infolded meaning of Horizon. The action rubbing depends upon the object this verb takes like
= He rubbed the cloth
= He rubbed the corn ear
= He rubbed his eyes
= The woman rubbed the flour i.e kneaded
= I rubbed the sandal with the earth .

So in the phrase it can be

-Rubbing of the Zenith i.e declination at the time of noon
-Rubbing of the horizon i.e Sunset

Arabs take both meanings.

Regards

Wakas

peace,

IF taken as sunset, then yes,

Thanks for clarifying they can mean different things.

but dont you pray around that time? when exactly do you do your Isha salat? when there is no more light in the sky or when the sun is beyond the horizon? ...explain

It seems there is confusion. I assumed you had read past threads discussing timing. I can assure you, they are more detailed than any discussions I have seen recently, hence referring you to them. To clarify

According to my studies so far, salat al isha is when the sun first begins to decline below the horizon until darkness of night/layl

I presented enough verses, but you have disregarded them

I never disregarded them. I simply pointed out you claimed there was an UNAMBIGUIOUS phrase that could have been used, then presented no evidence from AQ for it. No more, no less. My point was your so-called unambiguious phrase is not used and does not distinguish the starting point. In hindsight, it now seems you were unaware of the starting point I was referring to, i.e. you may have taken sunset to mean when the sun has set fully.

The other people which you have already talked to have explained it, but now i am also thinking again that it is only one.

People can explain away many things, evidence is another matter. All it comes down to is weighing of evidence and opting for the strongest option.

Why?? Is your opinion the ultimate one, which we all have to adhere to? Don't just say it's weak without giving any reason.

Is your opinion the ultimate one, which we all have to adhere to?

Perhaps if you read the post I have taken time to find and refer you to, you might find a reason.

Maybe no evidence that it is EXACTLY during the middle of the day, but DEFINITELY evidence that it is DURING the day.

There is zero evidence for it being the middle of the day. That was a complete forcing of a pre-conceived notion onto the verse.

###############

peace Q,

I find it hard to imagine anyone would give a meaning of "rubbing of the zenith".

Q_student

Salaam Brother Wakas
You are right to say that

I find it hard to imagine anyone would give a meaning of "rubbing of the zenith".

Exactly the same can be said what you put about its meaning

So, you acknowledge there is a difference between
"dulook as-shams" if taken to mean start of sunset, i.e. rubbing/pressing of horizon, when it goes red etc.

Dalook ul Shams means
-Time of sunset
-Time of declination at noon.
Reference
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000072.pdf
Regards

Wakas

peace,

What I mean is it is easy to see how someone can give a meaning of rubbing/pressing of the horizon, as this can be seen to be taking place from our vision, but I think it is very unlikely someone would give a meaning of "rubbing/pressing of the zenith" as it is not obvious to the eye.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

"He revealed to you this scripture, consisting of straightforward verses, which are the essence of the scripture, as well as multiple-meaning verses..." (37)

We might not come to a mutual opinion, although I am thinking about your opinion and its validity. Therefor, I think we can stop arguing about the exact meaning. If you have found some more evidence, then plese share it with me (and with the others). And if anyone knows hebrew that person should post its meaning of "duluk" on this thread (since arabic and hebrew are similar, there might be such a word).

I think we can conclude that "duluk al-shams" can mean the following

The movement of the Sun through the sky
The declining of the Sun from its highest point at mid-day
The setting of the Sun (around dusk)

Peace

Wakas

The movement of the Sun through the sky

I do not consider that as a possible meaning. If it is mentioned in a Classical Arabic dictionary, then I guess it is a possibility.

Q_student

I do not consider that as a possible meaning. If it is mentioned in a Classical Arabic dictionary, then I guess it is a possibility.

Brother Salaam
You are right. I have the arabic dictionary "Qutrul Muheet" which gives the following definition (Unfortunately I cannot copy paste it but typing it);

So does not mention "movement of the sun in the sky" as a possible meaning.It is only that movement which comes after noon.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

someone on this topic has stated that "rubbing" means moving along the surface of something.

Now i ask you a question do you really think the Sun is rubbing against the earth/horizon? If so, then I can guarantee you that we woul all be burned to death and the earth and Sun would collide, which could cause immense damage to the earth. I am not saying that it does not refer to sunset, but i am saying that "the movement of the sun along the sky" is a possibility. Check Shabbir Ahmed's and GA Parwez's opinions.

Q_student

someone on this topic has stated that "rubbing" means moving along the surface of something.

Now i ask you a question do you really think the Sun is rubbing against the earth/horizon? If so, then I can guarantee you that we woul all be burned to death and the earth and Sun would collide, which could cause immense damage to the earth. I am not saying that it does not refer to sunset, but i am saying that "the movement of the sun along the sky" is a possibility. Check Shabbir Ahmed's and GA Parwez's opinions.

Dear brother
The word "Dhulook " means rubbing. Literally "Dhulookushams" means rubbing of the sun. Against which surface it is just because of visual interpretation ,otherwise it can be completely ignored.
As far as Shabbir Ahmad is concerned ,he is good for nothing as far as arabic is concerned.
G A pervaiz is pretty nice to be considered but again he is a naive in front of Tajul Aroos or Lisaan ul Arab.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Dear brother
The word "Dhulook " means rubbing. Literally "Dhulookushams" means rubbing of the sun. Against which surface it is just because of visual interpretation ,otherwise it can be completely ignored.
As far as Shabbir Ahmad is concerned ,he is good for nothing as far as arabic is concerned.
G A pervaiz is pretty nice to be considered but again he is a naive in front of Tajul Aroos or Lisaan ul Arab.
Regards

If you say so... I will look at what other people say. Does anyone know Edip's position, because on his website it says EITHER noon OR evening.

Peace

Q_student

If you say so... I will look at what other people say. Does anyone know Edip's position, because on his website it says EITHER noon OR evening.

Peace

Dear Brother
If you consider Edip as standard ,I have no objection. But Dr Shabbir and Edip ,both are absolutely unaware of arabic language from my point of view. Edip ,also does not believe in Allah's Quran rather he believes in Code -19 /RK manipulated Book.So he has nothing to do with Allah's Quran.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Dear Brother
If you consider Edip as standard ,I have no objection. But Dr Shabbir and Edip ,both are absolutely unaware of arabic language from my point of view. Edip ,also does not believe in Allah's Quran rather he believes in Code -19 /RK manipulated Book.So he has nothing to do with Allah's Quran.
Regards

Dear Q_student,

Please DO NOT say that "he believes in code 19" and making it something negative. Code 19 is in the Quran. And why do you say that you have no objection towards Edip and then say "he does not belive in the Quran"? Please don't talk bas about people who believe in code 19. I personally belive in code 19. BESIDES Edip is AGAINST the whole taking code 19 out of context and using it for every single thing in Islam.

Is Shabbir Ahmed not an arab? Can he not then speak arabic? What do you mean?

Peace and thanks for your input and the appreciation of my post in the "hadith about quran-aloners" topic.

Q_student

Dear Q_student,

Please DO NOT say that "he believes in code 19" and making it something negative. Code 19 is in the Quran. And why do you say that you have no objection towards Edip and then say "he does not belive in the Quran"? Please don't talk bas about people who believe in code 19. I personally belive in code 19. BESIDES Edip is AGAINST the whole taking code 19 out of context and using it for every single thing in Islam.

Is Shabbir Ahmed not an arab? Can he not then speak arabic? What do you mean?

Peace and thanks for your input and the appreciation of my post in the "hadith about quran-aloners" topic.

Salaam Brother
Yes RK and his follower in whatever shape or name do not believe in Allah's Quran but in the book which is produced by manupolating Allah'Quran by RK. He removed two verses from Allah's Quran. That is RK's book.
Can anyone dare to change Allah's Quran ? If someone tries and thinks ,it means he thinks himself to be equivalent to Allah (ma3aazallah).
Dr Shabbir is not an Arab but he spent some time in Saudi Arabia. He and Edip Euksel do not have any idea about Classical Arabic used in the Quran.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Salaam Brother
Yes RK and his follower in whatever shape or name do not believe in Allah's Quran but in the book which is produced by manupolating Allah'Quran by RK. He removed two verses from Allah's Quran. That is RK's book.
Can anyone dare to change Allah's Quran ? If someone tries and thinks ,it means he thinks himself to be equivalent to Allah (ma3aazallah).
Dr Shabbir is not an Arab but he spent some time in Saudi Arabia. He and Edip Euksel do not have any idea about Classical Arabic used in the Quran.
Regards

If that's your opinion, fine. Please dont attack me for believing in code 19 (not saying that you did).
Besides, this is fftopic

Anyways, thanks for the info about Dr. Shabbir. I also don't believe everything he writes, etc. is true, but he has a lot of valid ideas that are true.