observation on 17:78...

Wakas

peace,

What I mean is it is easy to see how someone can give a meaning of rubbing/pressing of the horizon, as this can be seen to be taking place from our vision, but I think it is very unlikely someone would give a meaning of "rubbing/pressing of the zenith" as it is not obvious to the eye.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

"He revealed to you this scripture, consisting of straightforward verses, which are the essence of the scripture, as well as multiple-meaning verses..." (37)

We might not come to a mutual opinion, although I am thinking about your opinion and its validity. Therefor, I think we can stop arguing about the exact meaning. If you have found some more evidence, then plese share it with me (and with the others). And if anyone knows hebrew that person should post its meaning of "duluk" on this thread (since arabic and hebrew are similar, there might be such a word).

I think we can conclude that "duluk al-shams" can mean the following

The movement of the Sun through the sky
The declining of the Sun from its highest point at mid-day
The setting of the Sun (around dusk)

Peace

Wakas

The movement of the Sun through the sky

I do not consider that as a possible meaning. If it is mentioned in a Classical Arabic dictionary, then I guess it is a possibility.

Q_student

I do not consider that as a possible meaning. If it is mentioned in a Classical Arabic dictionary, then I guess it is a possibility.

Brother Salaam
You are right. I have the arabic dictionary "Qutrul Muheet" which gives the following definition (Unfortunately I cannot copy paste it but typing it);

So does not mention "movement of the sun in the sky" as a possible meaning.It is only that movement which comes after noon.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

someone on this topic has stated that "rubbing" means moving along the surface of something.

Now i ask you a question do you really think the Sun is rubbing against the earth/horizon? If so, then I can guarantee you that we woul all be burned to death and the earth and Sun would collide, which could cause immense damage to the earth. I am not saying that it does not refer to sunset, but i am saying that "the movement of the sun along the sky" is a possibility. Check Shabbir Ahmed's and GA Parwez's opinions.

Q_student

someone on this topic has stated that "rubbing" means moving along the surface of something.

Now i ask you a question do you really think the Sun is rubbing against the earth/horizon? If so, then I can guarantee you that we woul all be burned to death and the earth and Sun would collide, which could cause immense damage to the earth. I am not saying that it does not refer to sunset, but i am saying that "the movement of the sun along the sky" is a possibility. Check Shabbir Ahmed's and GA Parwez's opinions.

Dear brother
The word "Dhulook " means rubbing. Literally "Dhulookushams" means rubbing of the sun. Against which surface it is just because of visual interpretation ,otherwise it can be completely ignored.
As far as Shabbir Ahmad is concerned ,he is good for nothing as far as arabic is concerned.
G A pervaiz is pretty nice to be considered but again he is a naive in front of Tajul Aroos or Lisaan ul Arab.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Dear brother
The word "Dhulook " means rubbing. Literally "Dhulookushams" means rubbing of the sun. Against which surface it is just because of visual interpretation ,otherwise it can be completely ignored.
As far as Shabbir Ahmad is concerned ,he is good for nothing as far as arabic is concerned.
G A pervaiz is pretty nice to be considered but again he is a naive in front of Tajul Aroos or Lisaan ul Arab.
Regards

If you say so... I will look at what other people say. Does anyone know Edip's position, because on his website it says EITHER noon OR evening.

Peace

Q_student

If you say so... I will look at what other people say. Does anyone know Edip's position, because on his website it says EITHER noon OR evening.

Peace

Dear Brother
If you consider Edip as standard ,I have no objection. But Dr Shabbir and Edip ,both are absolutely unaware of arabic language from my point of view. Edip ,also does not believe in Allah's Quran rather he believes in Code -19 /RK manipulated Book.So he has nothing to do with Allah's Quran.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Dear Brother
If you consider Edip as standard ,I have no objection. But Dr Shabbir and Edip ,both are absolutely unaware of arabic language from my point of view. Edip ,also does not believe in Allah's Quran rather he believes in Code -19 /RK manipulated Book.So he has nothing to do with Allah's Quran.
Regards

Dear Q_student,

Please DO NOT say that "he believes in code 19" and making it something negative. Code 19 is in the Quran. And why do you say that you have no objection towards Edip and then say "he does not belive in the Quran"? Please don't talk bas about people who believe in code 19. I personally belive in code 19. BESIDES Edip is AGAINST the whole taking code 19 out of context and using it for every single thing in Islam.

Is Shabbir Ahmed not an arab? Can he not then speak arabic? What do you mean?

Peace and thanks for your input and the appreciation of my post in the "hadith about quran-aloners" topic.

Q_student

Dear Q_student,

Please DO NOT say that "he believes in code 19" and making it something negative. Code 19 is in the Quran. And why do you say that you have no objection towards Edip and then say "he does not belive in the Quran"? Please don't talk bas about people who believe in code 19. I personally belive in code 19. BESIDES Edip is AGAINST the whole taking code 19 out of context and using it for every single thing in Islam.

Is Shabbir Ahmed not an arab? Can he not then speak arabic? What do you mean?

Peace and thanks for your input and the appreciation of my post in the "hadith about quran-aloners" topic.

Salaam Brother
Yes RK and his follower in whatever shape or name do not believe in Allah's Quran but in the book which is produced by manupolating Allah'Quran by RK. He removed two verses from Allah's Quran. That is RK's book.
Can anyone dare to change Allah's Quran ? If someone tries and thinks ,it means he thinks himself to be equivalent to Allah (ma3aazallah).
Dr Shabbir is not an Arab but he spent some time in Saudi Arabia. He and Edip Euksel do not have any idea about Classical Arabic used in the Quran.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Salaam Brother
Yes RK and his follower in whatever shape or name do not believe in Allah's Quran but in the book which is produced by manupolating Allah'Quran by RK. He removed two verses from Allah's Quran. That is RK's book.
Can anyone dare to change Allah's Quran ? If someone tries and thinks ,it means he thinks himself to be equivalent to Allah (ma3aazallah).
Dr Shabbir is not an Arab but he spent some time in Saudi Arabia. He and Edip Euksel do not have any idea about Classical Arabic used in the Quran.
Regards

If that's your opinion, fine. Please dont attack me for believing in code 19 (not saying that you did).
Besides, this is fftopic

Anyways, thanks for the info about Dr. Shabbir. I also don't believe everything he writes, etc. is true, but he has a lot of valid ideas that are true.

Q_student

If that's your opinion, fine. Please dont attack me for believing in code 19 (not saying that you did).
Besides, this is fftopic

]Anyways, thanks for the info about Dr. Shabbir. I also don't believe everything he writes, etc. is true, but he has a lot of valid ideas that are true].

Brother Peace
Really ? Where did I say you believe in code 19

You said

Anyways, thanks for the info about Dr. Shabbir. I also don't believe everything he writes, etc. is true, but he has a lot of valid ideas that are true].

Again it is your pre-rogative. I do not want to read such a person.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Really ? Where did I say you believe in code 19

Peace bro.

I only said If that's your opinion, fine. Please dont attack me for believing in code 19 (not saying that you did).

NOTE the "(not saying that you did)."

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

I have recently thought about 1778 again, and here is my current understanding

"Observe the contact prayer at the declination of the sun at noon towards the darkening of the night/towards nightfall."

According to my personal translation/opinion/understanding this is referring to the noon prayer, and only the noon prayer. Not noon, afternoon, sunset and night prayers as many people think. The reason for that is that "towards the darkening of the night" is referring to "the declination of the sun". It explains where the sun is moving. It does not mean pray from noon till night. It says pray AT THE DECLINATION of the sun TOWARDS the darkening of the night. The sun moves towards the darkening of the night/nigtfall. Hence, it is only an explanation and does not say "pray from noon till night".

Wakas

I have recently thought about 1778 again, and here is my current understanding

"Observe the contact prayer at the declination of the sun at noon towards the darkening of the night/towards nightfall."

According to my personal translation/opinion/understanding this is referring to the noon prayer, and only the noon prayer. Not noon, afternoon, sunset and night prayers as many people think. The reason for that is that "towards the darkening of the night" is referring to "the declination of the sun". It explains where the sun is moving. It does not mean pray from noon till night. It says pray AT THE DECLINATION of the sun TOWARDS the darkening of the night. The sun moves towards the darkening of the night/nigtfall. Hence, it is only an explanation and does not say "pray from noon till night".

Pity your theory fails the logic test. It would be redundant for Al Quran to say "darkness of the night" if it just meant towards this timing reference, e.g. why not just say towards the night, or another phrase. The usage of "darkness of the night" strongly suggests it is being used to reference a specific point in time. Mind you, you could argue, Al Quran is being superfluous and a bit misleading in its word choice.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Pity your theory fails the logic test. It would be redundant for Al Quran to say "darkness of the night" if it just meant towards this timing reference, e.g. why not just say towards the night, or another phrase. The usage of "darkness of the night" strongly suggests it is being used to reference a specific point in time. Mind you, you could argue, Al Quran is being superfluous and a bit misleading in its word choice.

?? I, of course, dont think it is misleading in its word choice. Why are you coming to these silly conclusions?
I am not sure if you understand "darkness of the night". As we know, according to the Quran, the night starts at sunset and ends just before dawn. "Darkness of the night" suggests that it is not sunset, since it is not completely dark at sunset, but night has, by quranic definition of it, started.

So, how does it contradict "pray at the declination of the sun at noon (as it moves) towards nightfall/darkness of the night??

Please clarify.

Peace

Q_student

I have recently thought about 1778 again, and here is my current understanding

"Observe the contact prayer at the declination of the sun at noon towards the darkening of the night/towards nightfall."

According to my personal translation/opinion/understanding this is referring to the noon prayer, and only the noon prayer. Not noon, afternoon, sunset and night prayers as many people think. The reason for that is that "towards the darkening of the night" is referring to "the declination of the sun". It explains where the sun is moving. It does not mean pray from noon till night. It says pray AT THE DECLINATION of the sun TOWARDS the darkening of the night. The sun moves towards the darkening of the night/nigtfall. Hence, it is only an explanation and does not say "pray from noon till night".

Peace
So left RK's thought of 5 prayers ?
Regards

Wakas

?? I, of course, dont think it is misleading in its word choice. Why are you coming to these silly conclusions?
I am not sure if you understand "darkness of the night". As we know, according to the Quran, the night starts at sunset and ends just before dawn. "Darkness of the night" suggests that it is not sunset, since it is not completely dark at sunset, but night has, by quranic definition of it, started.

So, how does it contradict "pray at the declination of the sun at noon (as it moves) towards nightfall/darkness of the night??

Please clarify.

Peace

Where did I say it contradicted?

You did not answer my main point, why doesn't AQ just say "towards the night", why is "darkness" mentioned? It is superfluous and misleading.

Quranic night begins from evening twilight, i.e. when the sun is fully beneath the horizon, and ends at sunrise, i.e. when the sun first appears above the horizon. How can you possibly make conclusions on timings when you seemingly dont even know what Quranic night (and thus day) is?

http//www.free-minds.org/quranic

I have heard there is a forum that has discussed timings in over a hundred pages of detail, maybe it will be of use, if you have the will.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Where did I say it contradicted?

You did not answer my main point, why doesn't AQ just say "towards the night", why is "darkness" mentioned? It is superfluous and misleading.

Quranic night begins from evening twilight, i.e. when the sun is fully beneath the horizon, and ends at sunrise, i.e. when the sun first appears above the horizon. How can you possibly make conclusions on timings when you seemingly dont even know what Quranic night (and thus day) is?

http//www.free-minds.org/quranic

I have heard there is a forum that has discussed timings in over a hundred pages of detail, maybe it will be of use, if you have the will.

For the quranic night and day, please check

http//www.quran-islam.org/167.html

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace
So left RK's thought of 5 prayers ?
Regards

Where did I say that?