observation on 17:78...

Wakas

peace,

You are right with that statement quoted above, but shafaq is when the sun has gone below the horizon and there is still redness in the sky, which, I assume, is the time you pray your dusk prayer and it is also the time the Shia pray their Maghrib prayer.

You have said So, tell us how you determined it meant "redness of the sky at the end of sunset"?

What I meant was when the sun has set, but there is still redness in the sky. Its the time when Shias pray Maghrib. look at my above statement.

So, you acknowledge there is a difference between
"dulook as-shams" if taken to mean start of sunset, i.e. rubbing/pressing of horizon, when it goes red etc.
AND
"shafaq" which is after sunset when redness is still in sky
?

Second point, what is your difference between "ghurub" or "ghurub ash-shams" and shafaq?

So..did you challenge me or not?

Did I question that I challenged you or not? No. I clearly referred to you re-wording my challenge so you could provide an answer. (note word in bold). To put it obviously you said "ghurub as-shams" is UNAMBIGIOUS and would have been used if sunset was meant, then presented no verse from AQ with this phrase, but a combination of the words.

So then why dont you accept "the DECLINING of the sun" as at noon? It does not say sunset. the sun declines at noon like you have acknowledged.

I dont accept it because it is not the strongest option in terms of evidence. Simple.
I try to speak with accuracy, thus if I say something is possible, that's all it means, no more.

You have said Ahh, so if AQ meant ABC (Re 8416) it would have said ABC, but when it means plural it actually means singular? Is this your inconsistant/contradictory argument?

Please clarify this.

My point was you said if AQ meant what I think it means, it would have said something different, hence your reference of shafaq, but when it comes to singular/plural, you disregard your own argument and say it actually means plural when it says singular here, i.e. contradiciton/inconsistant.

When referring to my post at "the congregational salaat", you have said I have seen it.

Ok..what is your opinion?

Weak out of the options.

And about your post..i havent quite looked at the whole thing that "damon" wrote, but leaving business to go to prayer and then going back to everday life indicates that it is in the middle of the day, or did the Arabs back then do all the trading at night without light? Furthermore..do you work at night or at day? right... so we are to leave the business at midday to go to congr. prayer and then we can return. clear enough? If you have a different view, please clarify.

More accurately, one can say its during the day, there is no evidence for midday exactly.

I recommend reading past threads.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

peace,

So, you acknowledge there is a difference between
"dulook as-shams" if taken to mean start of sunset, i.e. rubbing/pressing of horizon, when it goes red etc.
AND
"shafaq" which is after sunset when redness is still in sky
?

IF taken as sunset, then yes, but dont you pray around that time? when exactly do you do your Isha salat? when there is no more light in the sky or when the sun is beyond the horizon? ...explain

Second point, what is your difference between "ghurub" or "ghurub ash-shams" and shafaq?

There is no "MY DIFFERENCE" there is only "THE DIFFERENCE"

I told you that there was not an important/big difference of "ghrubi ash-shams" and "ghurub". The difference in superfluous and they both refer to the period called sunset. "Shafaq" is AFTER the setting of the sun (after "ghrubi ash-shamsi&quot, but BEFORE the (pitch)-darkness of the night. So basically when the sun is beyond the horizon, but the sky is still a bit reddish.

Did I question that I challenged you or not? No. I clearly referred to you re-wording my challenge so you could provide an answer. (note word in bold). To put it obviously you said "ghurub as-shams" is UNAMBIGIOUS and would have been used if sunset was meant, then presented no verse from AQ with this phrase, but a combination of the words.

I presented enough verses, but you have disregarded them

My point was you said if AQ meant what I think it means, it would have said something different, hence your reference of shafaq, but when it comes to singular/plural, you disregard your own argument and say it actually means plural when it says singular here, i.e. contradiciton/inconsistant.

The other people which you have already talked to have explained it, but now i am also thinking again that it is only one.

Weak out of the options.

Why?? Is your opinion the ultimate one, which we all have to adhere to? Don't just say it's weak without giving any reason.

More accurately, one can say its during the day, there is no evidence for midday exactly.

Maybe no evidence that it is EXACTLY during the middle of the day, but DEFINITELY evidence that it is DURING the day.

Q_student

Salaam
Mashallah nice /interesting discussion is going on. Just one clarification.

The word does mean ?to rub? and it NO has infolded meaning of Horizon. The action rubbing depends upon the object this verb takes like
= He rubbed the cloth
= He rubbed the corn ear
= He rubbed his eyes
= The woman rubbed the flour i.e kneaded
= I rubbed the sandal with the earth .

So in the phrase it can be

-Rubbing of the Zenith i.e declination at the time of noon
-Rubbing of the horizon i.e Sunset

Arabs take both meanings.

Regards

Wakas

peace,

IF taken as sunset, then yes,

Thanks for clarifying they can mean different things.

but dont you pray around that time? when exactly do you do your Isha salat? when there is no more light in the sky or when the sun is beyond the horizon? ...explain

It seems there is confusion. I assumed you had read past threads discussing timing. I can assure you, they are more detailed than any discussions I have seen recently, hence referring you to them. To clarify

According to my studies so far, salat al isha is when the sun first begins to decline below the horizon until darkness of night/layl

I presented enough verses, but you have disregarded them

I never disregarded them. I simply pointed out you claimed there was an UNAMBIGUIOUS phrase that could have been used, then presented no evidence from AQ for it. No more, no less. My point was your so-called unambiguious phrase is not used and does not distinguish the starting point. In hindsight, it now seems you were unaware of the starting point I was referring to, i.e. you may have taken sunset to mean when the sun has set fully.

The other people which you have already talked to have explained it, but now i am also thinking again that it is only one.

People can explain away many things, evidence is another matter. All it comes down to is weighing of evidence and opting for the strongest option.

Why?? Is your opinion the ultimate one, which we all have to adhere to? Don't just say it's weak without giving any reason.

Is your opinion the ultimate one, which we all have to adhere to?

Perhaps if you read the post I have taken time to find and refer you to, you might find a reason.

Maybe no evidence that it is EXACTLY during the middle of the day, but DEFINITELY evidence that it is DURING the day.

There is zero evidence for it being the middle of the day. That was a complete forcing of a pre-conceived notion onto the verse.

###############

peace Q,

I find it hard to imagine anyone would give a meaning of "rubbing of the zenith".

Q_student

Salaam Brother Wakas
You are right to say that

I find it hard to imagine anyone would give a meaning of "rubbing of the zenith".

Exactly the same can be said what you put about its meaning

So, you acknowledge there is a difference between
"dulook as-shams" if taken to mean start of sunset, i.e. rubbing/pressing of horizon, when it goes red etc.

Dalook ul Shams means
-Time of sunset
-Time of declination at noon.
Reference
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000072.pdf
Regards

Wakas

peace,

What I mean is it is easy to see how someone can give a meaning of rubbing/pressing of the horizon, as this can be seen to be taking place from our vision, but I think it is very unlikely someone would give a meaning of "rubbing/pressing of the zenith" as it is not obvious to the eye.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

"He revealed to you this scripture, consisting of straightforward verses, which are the essence of the scripture, as well as multiple-meaning verses..." (37)

We might not come to a mutual opinion, although I am thinking about your opinion and its validity. Therefor, I think we can stop arguing about the exact meaning. If you have found some more evidence, then plese share it with me (and with the others). And if anyone knows hebrew that person should post its meaning of "duluk" on this thread (since arabic and hebrew are similar, there might be such a word).

I think we can conclude that "duluk al-shams" can mean the following

The movement of the Sun through the sky
The declining of the Sun from its highest point at mid-day
The setting of the Sun (around dusk)

Peace

Wakas

The movement of the Sun through the sky

I do not consider that as a possible meaning. If it is mentioned in a Classical Arabic dictionary, then I guess it is a possibility.

Q_student

I do not consider that as a possible meaning. If it is mentioned in a Classical Arabic dictionary, then I guess it is a possibility.

Brother Salaam
You are right. I have the arabic dictionary "Qutrul Muheet" which gives the following definition (Unfortunately I cannot copy paste it but typing it);

So does not mention "movement of the sun in the sky" as a possible meaning.It is only that movement which comes after noon.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

someone on this topic has stated that "rubbing" means moving along the surface of something.

Now i ask you a question do you really think the Sun is rubbing against the earth/horizon? If so, then I can guarantee you that we woul all be burned to death and the earth and Sun would collide, which could cause immense damage to the earth. I am not saying that it does not refer to sunset, but i am saying that "the movement of the sun along the sky" is a possibility. Check Shabbir Ahmed's and GA Parwez's opinions.

Q_student

someone on this topic has stated that "rubbing" means moving along the surface of something.

Now i ask you a question do you really think the Sun is rubbing against the earth/horizon? If so, then I can guarantee you that we woul all be burned to death and the earth and Sun would collide, which could cause immense damage to the earth. I am not saying that it does not refer to sunset, but i am saying that "the movement of the sun along the sky" is a possibility. Check Shabbir Ahmed's and GA Parwez's opinions.

Dear brother
The word "Dhulook " means rubbing. Literally "Dhulookushams" means rubbing of the sun. Against which surface it is just because of visual interpretation ,otherwise it can be completely ignored.
As far as Shabbir Ahmad is concerned ,he is good for nothing as far as arabic is concerned.
G A pervaiz is pretty nice to be considered but again he is a naive in front of Tajul Aroos or Lisaan ul Arab.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Dear brother
The word "Dhulook " means rubbing. Literally "Dhulookushams" means rubbing of the sun. Against which surface it is just because of visual interpretation ,otherwise it can be completely ignored.
As far as Shabbir Ahmad is concerned ,he is good for nothing as far as arabic is concerned.
G A pervaiz is pretty nice to be considered but again he is a naive in front of Tajul Aroos or Lisaan ul Arab.
Regards

If you say so... I will look at what other people say. Does anyone know Edip's position, because on his website it says EITHER noon OR evening.

Peace

Q_student

If you say so... I will look at what other people say. Does anyone know Edip's position, because on his website it says EITHER noon OR evening.

Peace

Dear Brother
If you consider Edip as standard ,I have no objection. But Dr Shabbir and Edip ,both are absolutely unaware of arabic language from my point of view. Edip ,also does not believe in Allah's Quran rather he believes in Code -19 /RK manipulated Book.So he has nothing to do with Allah's Quran.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Dear Brother
If you consider Edip as standard ,I have no objection. But Dr Shabbir and Edip ,both are absolutely unaware of arabic language from my point of view. Edip ,also does not believe in Allah's Quran rather he believes in Code -19 /RK manipulated Book.So he has nothing to do with Allah's Quran.
Regards

Dear Q_student,

Please DO NOT say that "he believes in code 19" and making it something negative. Code 19 is in the Quran. And why do you say that you have no objection towards Edip and then say "he does not belive in the Quran"? Please don't talk bas about people who believe in code 19. I personally belive in code 19. BESIDES Edip is AGAINST the whole taking code 19 out of context and using it for every single thing in Islam.

Is Shabbir Ahmed not an arab? Can he not then speak arabic? What do you mean?

Peace and thanks for your input and the appreciation of my post in the "hadith about quran-aloners" topic.

Q_student

Dear Q_student,

Please DO NOT say that "he believes in code 19" and making it something negative. Code 19 is in the Quran. And why do you say that you have no objection towards Edip and then say "he does not belive in the Quran"? Please don't talk bas about people who believe in code 19. I personally belive in code 19. BESIDES Edip is AGAINST the whole taking code 19 out of context and using it for every single thing in Islam.

Is Shabbir Ahmed not an arab? Can he not then speak arabic? What do you mean?

Peace and thanks for your input and the appreciation of my post in the "hadith about quran-aloners" topic.

Salaam Brother
Yes RK and his follower in whatever shape or name do not believe in Allah's Quran but in the book which is produced by manupolating Allah'Quran by RK. He removed two verses from Allah's Quran. That is RK's book.
Can anyone dare to change Allah's Quran ? If someone tries and thinks ,it means he thinks himself to be equivalent to Allah (ma3aazallah).
Dr Shabbir is not an Arab but he spent some time in Saudi Arabia. He and Edip Euksel do not have any idea about Classical Arabic used in the Quran.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Salaam Brother
Yes RK and his follower in whatever shape or name do not believe in Allah's Quran but in the book which is produced by manupolating Allah'Quran by RK. He removed two verses from Allah's Quran. That is RK's book.
Can anyone dare to change Allah's Quran ? If someone tries and thinks ,it means he thinks himself to be equivalent to Allah (ma3aazallah).
Dr Shabbir is not an Arab but he spent some time in Saudi Arabia. He and Edip Euksel do not have any idea about Classical Arabic used in the Quran.
Regards

If that's your opinion, fine. Please dont attack me for believing in code 19 (not saying that you did).
Besides, this is fftopic

Anyways, thanks for the info about Dr. Shabbir. I also don't believe everything he writes, etc. is true, but he has a lot of valid ideas that are true.

Q_student

If that's your opinion, fine. Please dont attack me for believing in code 19 (not saying that you did).
Besides, this is fftopic

]Anyways, thanks for the info about Dr. Shabbir. I also don't believe everything he writes, etc. is true, but he has a lot of valid ideas that are true].

Brother Peace
Really ? Where did I say you believe in code 19

You said

Anyways, thanks for the info about Dr. Shabbir. I also don't believe everything he writes, etc. is true, but he has a lot of valid ideas that are true].

Again it is your pre-rogative. I do not want to read such a person.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Really ? Where did I say you believe in code 19

Peace bro.

I only said If that's your opinion, fine. Please dont attack me for believing in code 19 (not saying that you did).

NOTE the "(not saying that you did)."

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

I have recently thought about 1778 again, and here is my current understanding

"Observe the contact prayer at the declination of the sun at noon towards the darkening of the night/towards nightfall."

According to my personal translation/opinion/understanding this is referring to the noon prayer, and only the noon prayer. Not noon, afternoon, sunset and night prayers as many people think. The reason for that is that "towards the darkening of the night" is referring to "the declination of the sun". It explains where the sun is moving. It does not mean pray from noon till night. It says pray AT THE DECLINATION of the sun TOWARDS the darkening of the night. The sun moves towards the darkening of the night/nigtfall. Hence, it is only an explanation and does not say "pray from noon till night".

Wakas

I have recently thought about 1778 again, and here is my current understanding

"Observe the contact prayer at the declination of the sun at noon towards the darkening of the night/towards nightfall."

According to my personal translation/opinion/understanding this is referring to the noon prayer, and only the noon prayer. Not noon, afternoon, sunset and night prayers as many people think. The reason for that is that "towards the darkening of the night" is referring to "the declination of the sun". It explains where the sun is moving. It does not mean pray from noon till night. It says pray AT THE DECLINATION of the sun TOWARDS the darkening of the night. The sun moves towards the darkening of the night/nigtfall. Hence, it is only an explanation and does not say "pray from noon till night".

Pity your theory fails the logic test. It would be redundant for Al Quran to say "darkness of the night" if it just meant towards this timing reference, e.g. why not just say towards the night, or another phrase. The usage of "darkness of the night" strongly suggests it is being used to reference a specific point in time. Mind you, you could argue, Al Quran is being superfluous and a bit misleading in its word choice.