How do you pray?
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Peace, Ahmad,
Seriously, who cares if he is a messenger or not, as long as he proves all the words that we should recite in the salaat. And furthermore, what do you mean with "he copied the info from submission.org"??! Don't you "copy" them and follow their outline or "copy" quran-islam.org and follow their outline. If we weren't allowed to "copy" other peoples' outlines, then I'm afraid there would only be a few people praying today because of "plagiarism". (I hope you understand my point). He is building on Rashads outline and he is completely right for saying (an example) that "sami'a allahu liman hamidah" is not actually part of salaat. Nowhere in the Quran can we find a command to say this in prayer and furthermore, in prayer, we talk to God, and we shouldnt tell HIM that He Himself listens to people who praise him. This is like Sunnis and Shias reciting Suras after Fatiha that include the command "Say he is one..." Are you commanding God to say that God is one???! Which God are you talking to?! Again... I hope you understand my point.
About the false prophecies he made a new one..lets see if it is true this time.. anyways.. why not follow his outline if it makes sense? i bet you follow quran-islam.org because you think it makes sense and not because you don't think that there is a messenger behind the site, right?
I will qoute from the Quran 17111 (translated by RK)
And proclaim "Praise be to GOD,
who has never begotten a son,
nor does He have a partner in His
kingship, nor does He need any ally
out of weakness," and magnify
Him constantly.this is the command for the takbir (allahu akbar). quran-islam.org uses the same explanation.
thanks for sharing your views, peace.
Peace Progressive1993,
The "dawaah" used by the worshipers in the afterlife should be the same one used today, since we are worshiping the same god in the same way in both instances... Also, the doctrines of Ahmad Nishitoba have already been proven FALSE, especially based on his repeated false prophecies. His concepts on the salaat (contact) are not his own; they were copied and pasted nearly VERBATIM from Rashad Khalifa's writings and articles on the Submitters' websites. And, in this respect, many of the views on salaat practiced by Dr. Khalifa are NOT Qur'aanic (i.e. intention, raising hands to the face, saying "allahu akbar", reciting "assalaamu alaykum" to the left and right, etc.), and they can't necessarily be included in the mathematical preservation of the salaat. So, this entire numerical pattern is in question... The best method for determining the number, names, and actions of salaat is relying upon the Qur'aan alone, and by examining the details through the scriptures...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Progressive1993,
Seriously, who cares if he is a messenger or not, as long as he proves all the words that we should recite in the salaat. And furthermore, what do you mean with "he copied the info from submission.org"??! Don't you "copy" them and follow their outline or "copy" quran-islam.org and follow their outline. If we weren't allowed to "copy" other peoples' outlines, then I'm afraid there would only be a few people praying today because of "plagiarism". (I hope you understand my point).
I hear you, and I agree with you, but you're missing my point... Ahmad Nishitoba copied the salaat outline that Rashad illustrated, even though this method had ALREADY been disproven. This system of salaat is based on the unproven assumption that the salaat had been "preserved" through generations of Arabs performing this practice in Mekka, which was preserved from the time of Abraham. In other words, Ahmad Nishitoba didn't show reliance upon the "Qur'aan Alone", which Rashad Khalifa advocated. Rather, the system is based on the concept of "Qur'aan PLUS tradition". Nothing in the Qur'aan specifically justifies 5 daily salaat observances... It's not about copying or plagiarizing; it's about following the right guidance. Copying the original wrong thing only makes the copy wrong too...
He is building on Rashads outline and he is completely right for saying (an example) that "sami'a allahu liman hamidah" is not actually part of salaat. Nowhere in the Quran can we find a command to say this in prayer and furthermore, in prayer, we talk to God, and we shouldnt tell HIM that He Himself listens to people who praise him. This is like Sunnis and Shias reciting Suras after Fatiha that include the command "Say he is one..." Are you commanding God to say that God is one???! Which God are you talking to?! Again... I hope you understand my point.
Again, there's nothing wrong with expounding on Rashad's teachings regarding salaat. However, many of these teachings have already been proven FALSE and incompatible with the Qur'aan. Therefore, his method is also wrong... One of the best methods I've seen regarding so far (based on the Qur'aan alone) is the one mentioned on the "quran-islam" website. There are some other good ones as well, but this is just one example...
About the false prophecies he made a new one..lets see if it is true this time.. anyways.. why not follow his outline if it makes sense? i bet you follow quran-islam.org because you think it makes sense and not because you don't think that there is a messenger behind the site, right?
This is not the point, and the "messenger" doesn't matter, at least not specifically. What matters is following the scriptural guidance ONLY, not traditions based on other cultures and religious groups. Whether Ahmad Nishitoba is a true messenger or not (I believe he's not) is irrelevant, and it has no bearing on whether his salaat outline is correct or not. Based on the Qur'aan, his method is wrong...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Hey, Ahmad
Peace Progressive1993,
Ahmad Nishitoba copied the salaat outline that Rashad illustrated, even though this method had ALREADY been disproven. This system of salaat is based on the unproven assumption that the salaat had been "preserved" through generations of Arabs performing this practice in Mekka, which was preserved from the time of Abraham. In other words, Ahmad Nishitoba didn't show reliance upon the "Qur'aan Alone", which Rashad Khalifa advocated. Rather, the system is based on the concept of "Qur'aan PLUS tradition". Nothing in the Qur'aan specifically justifies 5 daily salaat observances... It's not about copying or plagiarizing; it's about following the right guidance. Copying the original wrong thing only makes the copy wrong too...
I kind of agree with you that the guys from submission.org exaggerate with the "it was passed down from generation to generation since abraham", but we can't deny the mutawator sunna 100%.
Again, there's nothing wrong with expounding on Rashad's teachings regarding salaat. However, many of these teachings have already been proven FALSE and incompatible with the Qur'aan. Therefore, his method is also wrong...
What is false about RK's outline (except for sami'a allahu limen hamida)?
Based on the Qur'aan, his method is wrong...
Which part is wrong? I already gave you the proof for the takbir. The Shahada is in 318, the command to say "Subhana rabiyal azeem" is in 5647 and two other verses, the command for saying "Subhana rabiyal aala" is stated in 871 - the chapter is even titled "Al-Alaa".
Fatiha is part of the Quran so his outline accords with the Quran. So I ask you what part of his outline does not accord with the Quran?
peace
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Peace Vivek,
Salat does not involve bowing and prostration. Salat is the act of incense burning. Please read my article titled "Salat is none other than Incense Burning".
It's against forum rules for you to post this same message in every thread... Just letting you know...
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Peace Vivek,
It's against forum rules for you to post this same message in every thread... Just letting you know...
Yep, and it was really annoying!! I couldnt even find this topic again!
Anyways.. @ Ahmad
Please answer the questions which I have directed towards you in my previous post.
Peace
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Peace Progressive1993,
You can use whatever method of salaat you feel to be best. But this is NOT the ordination of the scriptures. In fact, even though it's in the reading, the Qur'aan doesn't even tell us we have to recite "Al Faateha" in our salaat at all. What's wrong with reciting ANY chapter or passage of the Qur'aan, as long as it's directed solely to G-d? Sure, 871 tells us to glorify G-d; but it doesn't specify this for salaat alone. It's saying we should glorify G-d ALL THE TIME. The same goes for the testimony cited in 318 - we should acknowledge G-d's oneness ALL THE TIME, not just during our salaat...
I see nothing specifically wrong about the Submitters' salaat observance, as long as it's dedicated solely to G-d and nobody else. However, all Rashad did was take the Sunni salaat and replace bits and pieces of it to dedicate it to G-d alone. There's no evidence in the scripture that the salaat must be performed this way, and it is still an innovation... Can you show me a passage in the reading where it gives a certain outline to observing salaat, in a specific arrangement with specific words?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Progressive1993,
You can use whatever method of salaat you feel to be best. But this is NOT the ordination of the scriptures. In fact, even though it's in the reading, the Qur'aan doesn't even tell us we have to recite "Al Faateha" in our salaat at all. What's wrong with reciting ANY chapter or passage of the Qur'aan, as long as it's directed solely to G-d? Sure, 871 tells us to glorify G-d; but it doesn't specify this for salaat alone. It's saying we should glorify G-d ALL THE TIME. The same goes for the testimony cited in 318 - we should acknowledge G-d's oneness ALL THE TIME, not just during our salaat...
I see nothing specifically wrong about the Submitters' salaat observance, as long as it's dedicated solely to G-d and nobody else. However, all Rashad did was take the Sunni salaat and replace bits and pieces of it to dedicate it to G-d alone. There's no evidence in the scripture that the salaat must be performed this way, and it is still an innovation... Can you show me a passage in the reading where it gives a certain outline to observing salaat, in a specific arrangement with specific words?
Peace,
Ahmad
I like the way you said he took it from the Sunnis and modified it. You are right that there is no specific way to pray from the Koran or even from the previous scriptures. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling himself. There is nothing wrong with praying the Sunni way also.
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Peace Progressive1993,
You can use whatever method of salaat you feel to be best. But this is NOT the ordination of the scriptures. In fact, even though it's in the reading, the Qur'aan doesn't even tell us we have to recite "Al Faateha" in our salaat at all. What's wrong with reciting ANY chapter or passage of the Qur'aan, as long as it's directed solely to G-d? Sure, 871 tells us to glorify G-d; but it doesn't specify this for salaat alone. It's saying we should glorify G-d ALL THE TIME. The same goes for the testimony cited in 318 - we should acknowledge G-d's oneness ALL THE TIME, not just during our salaat...
I see nothing specifically wrong about the Submitters' salaat observance, as long as it's dedicated solely to G-d and nobody else. However, all Rashad did was take the Sunni salaat and replace bits and pieces of it to dedicate it to G-d alone. There's no evidence in the scripture that the salaat must be performed this way, and it is still an innovation... Can you show me a passage in the reading where it gives a certain outline to observing salaat, in a specific arrangement with specific words?
Peace,
Ahmad
Hey, Ahmad,
I totally agree with you. One shouldnt ALWAYS recite the same exact things in eace salaat..that would get boring/repetetive and thus it would not get us as close to God. Nevertheless, the guys from submitters.org gave good reasons for recting al-fatiha (witht eh math and stuff), but your write as long as its from the quran and dedicated to God alone, then it should be fine.
Also, please answer the questions listed before, or do you agree with those utterances (subhan rabiyal azeem, takbir, etc.)
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Peace Progressive1993,
I totally agree with you. One shouldnt ALWAYS recite the same exact things in eace salaat..that would get boring/repetetive and thus it would not get us as close to God. Nevertheless, the guys from submitters.org gave good reasons for recting al-fatiha (witht eh math and stuff), but your write as long as its from the quran and dedicated to God alone, then it should be fine.
Agreed. Reciting "al-faatiha" is fine, but I don't think it's necessarily a requirement in order for our prayer to be accepted by G-d, by any means...
Also, please answer the questions listed before, or do you agree with those utterances (subhan rabiyal azeem, takbir, etc.)
I think that as long as they are dedicated to G-d alone, it's fine to recite these utterances in our salaat (or prayers). I don't necessarily agree with the traditional sectarian concept that we must recite them in Arabic, since G-d is knowledgeable of all languages. Therefore, I think it's okay to speak salaat in whatever language you are familiar with, not necessarily Arabic. But in the case of saying them (in general), that's fine, as long as the salaat is to G-d alone...
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@ Ahamad
I get your point and I totally agree with you.
I just wanted to post the follwowing verses from the Quran...
"We have given thee seven of the oft-repeated (verses) and the great Qur'an." (1587)
This shows that we should recite the fatiha, but somehow RK's translation talks about pairs. But then again, there is no verse saying that it is obligatory to always recite it.
Anyways.. one question how many prayers do you think are obligatory per day based on the quran and at what times?
Thanks
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Peace Progressive1993,
Anyways.. one question how many prayers do you think are obligatory per day based on the quran and at what times?
This is a debatable issue... Personally, I think we should offer 3 prayers per day, during the periods of morning, noon (or afternoon), and evening, just like the Jewish prayer times. From my perspective, this is what the Qur'aan relays too, by emphasizing morning and evening salaat, and then alluding to the middle prayer (i.e. "salaatu al wusta". There is also an optional nighttime salaat observance as well, as mentioned in the scripture, but the other 3 are mandatory, based on my understanding...
Peace,
Ahmad
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I pray by bowing and prostrating but dont add the Mohhamad is the messenger part.(5 times)
peace -
I pray the traditional way (with the extra known prayers) but I take Muhammad out of the shahada. After all I think the shahada is for one only.
I used to say "Ashhaduana la ilaha illallah, wahdahu la sharika la, washhaduana muhammadan 'abdu warasulluh.
Now it's "Ashhaduana la ilaha illallah, wahdahu la sharika la, lahul mulk walahul hamdu, yuhyi wayumeet. ;D
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i know one Quran-alone brother who makes salat (as in bowing and prostrating) in the morning and evening (just two times per day), and combines the bowing and prostrating with remembrance of God, reading Quran, and praise.
he argues, very well, that the Quran asks us to honor times for prayer, but does not say exactly when. we are asked to praise God in the morning and evening, to pray morning and evening, to bow, to prostrate, to remember Him.
so surely the entire world needn't follow the specific examples of Mohammed. but from my reading and this brother's reading, we are asked to pray at the dawn and dusk, and to remember God throughout the day, and to bow and prostrate, and praise Him. i tend to combine these commandments in salat.
I would like to propose 3 levels of salat times. Traditionally, there is only fard and sunnah.
Level 1 fard - morning and evening
Level 2 furqan - the traditional five as done at the Kaba
Level 3 sunnah - extra salat after the fiveI chose the word furqan myself. I am the brother ayani was referring to. I have come to understand the deep significance and truth of the five established prayers that have continued at the Kaba for 1,432 lunar years uninterrupted. There is absolutely no way this could have been changed after the Prophet's death (alayhi salam) without the masses of people protesting innovation.
Furqan means standard. Five is the standard. Why do some of you keep doubting this? You should be glad that these 5 appointments were sent down with authority from the Almighty God. It is a high standard for a reason. It allows for people to strive towards contact with their Lord, if they want.
What I don't like is the "All or Nothing" mentality, like we completely fail our responsibility if we miss one. It makes for unnecessary guilt and turns converts off faster than `Ayisha. (sorry ) but it's true)
So be thankful for the 5 appointments that have been established, and make use of as many as you can.
But be relatively comforted that according to the Qur'an, Morning (fajr) and Evening (maghrib/isha) are the minimum obligation. Salat is a measure of your iman - in number AND quality.
peace
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Peace abdullah_m
You said
There is absolutely no way this could have been changed after the Prophet's death (alayhi salam) without the masses of people protesting innovation.
I guess despicable acts such as halaalah, irrevocable divorce, etc. also could not be innovations because if they were, the masses would have protested innovation.
Imraan
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I chose the word furqan myself. I am the brother ayani was referring to. I have come to understand the deep significance and truth of the five established prayers that have continued at the Kaba for 1,432 lunar years uninterrupted. There is absolutely no way this could have been changed after the Prophet's death (alayhi salam) without the masses of people protesting innovation.
I prefer to look at AlQuraan instead of what is happening since 1,432 lunar uninterrupted years with not authenticity.
Furqan means standard. Five is the standard. Why do some of you keep doubting this? You should be glad that these 5 appointments were sent down with authority from the Almighty God. It is a high standard for a reason. It allows for people to strive towards contact with their Lord, if they want.
Furqaan means 'Criterion' not 'standard'.
So be thankful for the 5 appointments that have been established, and make use of as many as you can.
But be relatively comforted that according to the Qur'an, Morning (fajr) and Evening (maghrib/isha) are the minimum obligation. Salat is a measure of your iman - in number AND quality.
I don't find any aayat quoted in your post.
May Allah guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
To answer the topic question
5 a day the Sunni way with the following exceptions
Hands at sides instead of folded
Head is straight, not bent.
Prayer spoken aloud at a moderate tone
Aside from Qur'anic verses, prayers spoken in English.
No turning my head for the greeting of peace when alone.
When at my mosque, I pray the traditional Sunni way.
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Salaam,
By applying "The Law and Guidance of Allah" in my daily life, with logic and reason & with all sincerety .
I do the same as above + I pray twice a day i.e., Salaat AlFajr and Salaat AlEishaan as mentioned in AlQuraan.
May Allah guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan