DO AYATS 5:5 AND 6:146, PRECLUDE THE PIG AS BEING HARAM...?

Mazhar

if you want to go by this although I have given evidence from the Quran, you are free to do so, but I am not.
I will follow the quran. as for rizq is that like domestic animals? clarify

Allah says that is Rizq

nsws1988

This is quote from student.

Only that cannot be called Haram which has been declared Halal by Allah for us. Where Allah has declared cat, dog, donkey Halal?

Those who declare such things as halal for themselves they follow none but the Satan.

So which animals does God make halal for us to eat in the Quran?
I mean are chicken, turkey, pigeon, rabbit, duck in the Quran?
This has always confused me. Obviously dirty animals like rats shouldn't be eaten, that's just common sense. But what about other animals like cats and foxes?
I read in a book about 'Islam' that you shouldn't eat aggressive animals like lions and buffolo because their hormones can make you aggressive too but I haven't seen any scientific evidence.

Q_student

Prohibition and Permissible are given distinctly in the Qur'aan. Dogs etc are NOT declared as your Rizq. Only milk giving herbivores other than employed as beast of burden are made permissible for eating and are declared as Rizq given by Allah, in all the Ayat quoted in earlier post. The Ayah quoted talks as an explanation given by the Messenger about the things prohibited by Allah in other verses. Here reason is also given with clarification that blood which is flowing liquid is haram, otherwise some blood always remains within the body of slaugtered herbivore. At all other places only blood was mentioned.

Dear Brother Mazhar
I think it is here where you are struck up. By the word "Rizq" you mean only "eatable". Your concept is not true. Anything which is given by Allah may be cow ,buffalo ,goats ,cats ,donkeys ,horses ,dogs ,wealth ,land ,rain ,fruits even cars your PC from which one is benefitted is RizQ.

Quran says

Everything given by Allah is called Rizq. Even dictionaries of Classical arabic support it.

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What stops you from including Dogs and Donkeys in RIZQ
As far this arguement is concerned these are considered beast of burden ,where does Quran says that it is their only use.
Then you jumped to saying milk givein "Baheema" .Does donkey or horses do not give milK?
In addition to these animals there are many others like
Lizard ?
Birds like Crows,vultures ,pigeons ,chickens
Snakes
Wasps

You have persistantly avoided the question raised by progressive the use of word "Innamaa" used in

2173

16115

Allah asks the prophet PBUH to declare that in the QURAN THERE IS NOTHING HARAAM EXCEPT THOSE MENTIONED
6145
BUT YOU SAY "NO" THERE ARE OTHERS HARAAM ALSO
Whome should be trusted ?
Regards

Rami

Peace all,

First, get science out of this completely. Some foods are pemissible but can harm you.

Second, when the Quran says 'I don't see from what was revealed to me anything forbidden except...' is only regarding cattle because the pagans made their own prohibitions in cattle. It is very interesting to note that when God added some prohibitions on the Jews, all were within cattle. Ofcourse and as usual, that has nothing to do with the Babylonian Torah so don't get confused.

Peace,

Rami

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Ok..this will probably be my last post on this issue.

This is from Hadiths

According to various "authentic" Ahadith narrated in "Sahih" Bukhari and "Sahih" Muslim including hadith narrated by Ibn Abbas in "Sahih" Muslim, Book of hunting and slaughter, Hadith No. 4752 and Sunan Ibn-I-Majah chapter 13 Hadith no. 3232 to 3234, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) prohibited the eating of

(i) Wild animals with canine teeth, i.e. meat eating carnivorous animals. These are animals belonging to the cat families such as lion, tiger, cats, dogs, wolfs, hyenas, etc.

(ii) Certain rodents like mice, rats, rabbits with claws, etc.

(iii) Certain reptiles like snakes, alligators, etc.

(iv) Birds of prey with talons or claws, like vultures, eagle, crows, owl, etc.

This is from the Quran

"O you who believe, eat from the good things we provided for you, and be thankful to GOD, if you do worship Him alone. He ONLY prohibits for you the eating of animals that die of themselves (without human interference), blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. If one is forced (to eat these), without being malicious or deliberate, he incurs no sin. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful." (2172-173)

"Say, "I do not find in what was revealed to me anything prohibited for
any eater unless it is (1) carrion, (2) running blood, (3) the meat of pigs, for it is unclean, and (4) meat blasphemously dedicated to other than God." If one is forced to eat these without being malicious or deliberte, then your Lord is Forgiver, Most Merciful." (6145)

Say, "Did you note how GOD sends down to you all kinds of provisions, then you render some of them unlawful, and some lawful?" Say, "Did GOD give you permission to do this? Or, do you fabricate lies and attribute them to GOD?" (1059)

"Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. (Animals that die of themselves include those) strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height, gored, attacked by a wild animal - unless you save your animal before it dies - and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning (the eradication of) your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful." (53)

"These are God's revelations that We recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?" (456)

"They follow idols who decree for them religious laws never authorized by God. If it were not for the predetermined decision, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the transgressors have incurred a painful retribution." (4221)

Bonus I will give you the dictionary definition of "anything" and "only", because Rami made a ridiculous claim, saying that "anything except..." refers to only cattle being lawful.

Anything (pronoun) "Any object, act, state, event, or fact whatever; thing of any kind; something or other; aught"

Only (adverb) "Without others or anything further; exclusively" and "no more than; just"

If you still won't believe me, then check http//www.quran-islam.org/118.html and http//www.submission.org/quran/app16.html

Peace

Q_student

Dear Brother
Hadith prohibitions are not an ISSUE of this thread. We are talking about only Quranic Porhibitions.
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace

I am assuming that Mazar gets his prohibitions from Hadiths as he was probably brought up that way.

I have presented evidence that only the meat of pigs (not the fat), running blood, dead animals (without human interference), the meat that was dedicated to anyone except for God,ect. is haram. Period.

If it is NOT SPECIFICALLY mentioned as forbidden in the Quran, then it is lawful. If something is declared permissible then it DOES NOT mean that other things are forbidden.

Please look at the links that I have provided earlier and also go to the replies section at quran-islam.org under the reply/article "are dogs haram?"

almarh0m

Salamun alaykum

Q_student . Do you feel that there should be some verses ( Ayat ) of the Qur'an that Prevent The Pig as Being Haram ? After all of the verses cited including by yourself that eating of pig meat is clearly haram ? I am totally confused by "the heading of this thread" . Progressive1993 replied with the appropriate answers backed by verses relevant to the subject matters , yet you complained about his inclusion of some hadiths evidence which is informative , though not necessarily valid .

Let's see the topic heading again ...." Do Ayats 55 AND 6146 , PRECLUDE THE PIG AS BEING HARAM...?" , are you asking if these two ayats prevent The Pig from being Prohibited to be consumed or what ? Please help me understand , if haram means Prohibit/ed/ion , why are you asking if these afore mentioned verses Prevent the pig from being so ( haram) ? .

Peace and thank you

almarh0m

Mazhar

Peace

I am assuming that Mazar gets his prohibitions from Hadiths as he was probably brought up that way.

I have presented evidence that only the meat of pigs (not the fat), running blood, dead animals (without human interference), the meat that was dedicated to anyone except for God,ect. is haram. Period.

If it is NOT SPECIFICALLY mentioned as forbidden in the Quran, then it is lawful. If something is declared permissible then it DOES NOT mean that other things are forbidden.

Please look at the links that I have provided earlier and also go to the replies section at quran-islam.org under the reply/article "are dogs haram?"

Nowhere on this forum I have ever quoted an Hadith.
The hadith reidden people and the so called progressive are of the same coin. Both are not willing to accept the word of Qur'aan since it does not suit many of their desires.
The problem with the so called modernists is that they are not willing to understand the classification of animals as given by the Qur'aan which is so authentic that the 21st century scientific classification is the same.
Qur'aan has declared some of the herbivore mammals as Hilal, and NOT animals, and exception is made for such mammals who died natural death or were slaughtered in the name of someone else or alongwith the name of Allah. In the presence of such distinct command any one desiring eating frogs, donkeys, dogs and cats will do it at his own will and not under the excuse of not having been declared Haram.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Nowhere on this forum I have ever quoted an Hadith.
The hadith reidden people and the so called progressive are of the same coin. Both are not willing to accept the word of Qur'aan since it does not suit many of their desires.
The problem with the so called modernists is that they are not willing to understand the classification of animals as given by the Qur'aan which is so authentic that the 21st century scientific classification is the same.
Qur'aan has declared some of the herbivore mammals as Hilal, and NOT animals, and exception is made for such mammals who died natural death or were slaughtered in the name of someone else or alongwith the name of Allah. In the presence of such distinct command any one desiring eating frogs, donkeys, dogs and cats will do it at his own will and not under the excuse of not having been declared Haram.

Listen, you fail to understand that eventhough the Quran says that herbivorous animals are halal, it does not mean that other animals are haram. If some others are declared as haram, then ALL other animals, foods, etc. are HALAL BY DEFAULT. If you dont believe me, then look at the links, i cannot help you any further. Besides I am not trying to adjust/change islam to modern standards. I only follow what has been revealed by God in the Quran. Period. Being progressive is good, though and we should not have anything against that, although i agree that we should not cross the limits.

The reason i referred to the hadith, was because i was assuming you got your prohibitions from there. check my earlier posts for that.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Salamun alaykum

Q_student . Do you feel that there should be some verses ( Ayat ) of the Qur'an that Prevent The Pig as Being Haram ? After all of the verses cited including by yourself that eating of pig meat is clearly haram ? I am totally confused by "the heading of this thread" . Progressive1993 replied with the appropriate answers backed by verses relevant to the subject matters , yet you complained about his inclusion of some hadiths evidence which is informative , though not necessarily valid .

Let's see the topic heading again ...." Do Ayats 55 AND 6146 , PRECLUDE THE PIG AS BEING HARAM...?" , are you asking if these two ayats prevent The Pig from being Prohibited to be consumed or what ? Please help me understand , if haram means Prohibit/ed/ion , why are you asking if these afore mentioned verses Prevent the pig from being so ( haram) ? .

Peace and thank you

almarh0m

Peace brother,

I understand that you might be confused by all this discussion. I will answer your question. Here is the verse you quoted (55) along with 2 previous verses (53-4) - meaning that it is in context.

(53) Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of
pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. (Animals that die of them-
selves include those ) strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height,
gored, attacked by a wild animal--unless you save your animal before it
dies--and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat
through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning(the eradication of ) your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you.
If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food ), without being deliberately sinful, then GOD is
Forgiver, Merciful.

(54) They consult you concerning what
is lawful for them; say, "Lawful for
you are all good things, including
what trained dogs and falcons catch
for you." You train them according
to GOD's teachings. You may eat
what they catch for you, and
mention GOD's name thereupon.
You shall observe GOD.
GOD is most efficient in reckoning.

Today, all good food is made lawful
for you. The food of the people of
the scripture is lawful for you.
Also, you may marry the chaste women
among the believers, as well as the chaste women
among the followers of previous scripture,
provided you pay them their due dowries.
You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery,
nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith,
all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter
he will be with the losers.

Do you understand now? If God would have meant that EVERY SINGLE THING is lawful, then prohibitions in the Quran would not only contradict the verses that contain prohibitions, but would also be useless since all things would be lawful. And we know that there are no contradictions in the Quran and every word in the Quran has its purpose.

Note that it says all GOOD things are lawful. This means everything that is good/not mentioned as unlawful is, by default, lawful.

When it says that the food of the people of the scripture is lawful, this is refering to the food accorfin gto the bible and torah. They forbid pork along with numerous other things, which is where hadithists get there prohibitions from.

So basically No, 55 and 6146 do not make pork lawful.
I hope your questions/concerns are answered now.

And just as a reminder "O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors." (587)

"This is the book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the conscientious" (22)

Mazhar

Peace brother,

I understand that you might be confused by all this discussion. I will answer your question. Here is the verse you quoted (55) along with 2 previous verses (53-4) - meaning that it is in context.

(53) Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of
pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. (Animals that die of them-
selves include those ) strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height,
gored, attacked by a wild animal--unless you save your animal before it
dies--and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat
through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers
have given up concerning (the
eradication of ) your religion; do not
fear them and fear Me instead.
Today, I have completed your
religion, perfected My blessing
upon you, and I have decreed
Submission as the religion for you.
If one is forced by famine (to eat
prohibited food ), without being
deliberately sinful, then GOD is
Forgiver, Merciful.

(54) They consult you concerning what
is lawful for them; say, "Lawful for
you are all good things, including
what trained dogs and falcons catch
for you." You train them according
to GOD's teachings. You may eat
what they catch for you, and
mention GOD's name thereupon.
You shall observe GOD.
GOD is most efficient in reckoning.

Today, all good food is made lawful
for you. The food of the people of
the scripture is lawful for you.
Also, you may marry the chaste women
among the believers, as well as the chaste women
among the followers of previous scripture,
provided you pay them their due dowries.
You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery,
nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith,
all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter
he will be with the losers.

Do you understand now? If God would have meant that EVERY SINGLE THING is lawful, then prohibitions in the Quran would not only contradict the verses that contain prohibitions, but would also be useless since all things would be lawful. And we know that there are no contradictions in the Quran and every word in the Quran has its purpose.

Note that it say all GOOD things are lawful. This means everything that is good/not mentioned as unlawful.

When it says that the food of the people of the scripture is lawful, this is refering to the food accorfin gto the bible and torah. They forbid pork along with numerous other things, which is where hadithists get there prohibitions from.

I hope your questions/concerns are answered now.

And just as a reminder "O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors." (587)

"This is the book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the conscientious" (22)

Start with this and then read the rest

If things which you consider haram only when specifically mentioned by name then what was the need of saying "for you is made permissible ." And do not include cats and dogs or any other animal that one may like to eat. For a believer is permissible subject to conditionalities, for non believers, choice is wide open.

almarh0m

Peace Progressive1993

Thank you for your clear explanation re what is expressly forbidden and what is permissible i.e. all good things . However , let me tell you that I never have problem understanding the verses cited as per Haram and Halal things to consume . As you can see in my previous post on this topic which you quoted , I did acknowledge that you gave a correct answer and explanation with relevant verses . If I may point out to you once again that I was never confused by the Ayats cited thus far , what I was and still am confused about is "The Heading of this thread . I know as well as the next person that other than what is expressly forbidden , is permissible , even by default . By the way , I addressed my post which you quoted above to Q_student . Thanks anyway .

Cheers

almarh0m

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace Progressive1993

Thank you for your clear explanation re what is expressly forbidden and what is permissible i.e. all good things . However , let me tell you that I never have problem understanding the verses cited as per Haram and Halal things to consume . As you can see in my previous post on this topic which you quoted , I did acknowledge that you gave a correct answer and explanation with relevant verses . If I may point out to you once again that I was never confused by the Ayats cited thus far , what I was and still am confused about is "The Heading of this thread . I know as well as the next person that other than what is expressly forbidden , is permissible , even by default . By the way , I addressed my post which you quoted above to Q_student . Thanks anyway .

Cheers

almarh0m

I know that you adressed Q_student...just wanted to clear things up

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Start with this and then read the rest

If things which you consider haram only when specifically mentioned by name then what was the need of saying "for you is made permissible ." And do not include cats and dogs or any other animal that one may like to eat. For a believer is permissible subject to conditionalities, for non believers, choice is wide open.

Do you expect God to tell you that vitamin C tablets are halal?! Based on your logic, vitamin C tablets, skateboards, loud speakers, printers, DVDs, etc. would be haram because they are not mentioned as halal in the quran!!

Please reflect back on my verses and visit the following http//www.quran-islam.org/255.html,
http//www.quran-islam.org/118.html and http//www.submission.org/halal-meat.html

If you still want to object, then idk what to do, since I thoroughly presented the haram food based on the Quran.

AND BTW, this is to counter your claim about only things specifically mentioned as halal in the quran being halal and the rest being haram

"Those who reverence the rites decreed by GOD have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those SPECIFICALLY PROHIBITED for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness." (2230)

"O you who believe, do not prohibit good things that are made lawful by GOD, and do not aggress; GOD dislikes the aggressors." (587)

Just a side note you should mention the name of God before you eat food, not just meat. It is not the duty of the one who is slaughtering the animal to do so. It is your responsibility

"You shall eat from that upon which God's name has been pronounced, if you truly believe in His revelation." (611

"Why should you NOT eat from that upon which God's name has been mentioned ? He has DETAILED for you what is prohibited for you, unless you are forced. Indeed, many people mislead others with their personal opinions, without knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors." (6119)

Mazhar