Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Salaam student!
It's not limited to it.
This is why I believe the quraan is accommodating those who cannot have reproduction.Dear Samia
The word "Harth " shows that reproduction is the primary purpose of marriage.
If one is physically impotent ,then he has no right to spoil the life of any woman by getting married to her thus block all of her chances to
1be psychological satisfied
2have children
3get married to another medically normal person.I personally feel it will be an explicit crime on the part of the man if he does so intentionally.
Regards -
Istataat, The precise meaning of this word is , To be able to, and how some one is able to, (or not able to) will be determined by the context and the subject in discussion. Generally , when this word is used instead of a precise reasoning , it is meant to cover multiple aspects along with the basic reason, or is used when you don't want to unveil your specific reason.
When the sole purpose of marriage is reproduction then we have to agree with Tlepsh "( ِ any of you who is physically not able to marry muhsanat".
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When the sole purpose of marriage is reproduction then we have to agree with Tlepsh "( ِ any of you who is physically not able to marry muhsanat".
Dear Brother
What you are ignoring the word persistantly is word " " which
-finacially sufficient state
-easiness
-favor ,grace ,kindeness (fazl)- ( 2 / 45)
) )
This word " " clearly describe the nature of inability.
Regards - ( 2 / 45)
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Dear Brother
What you are ignoring the word persistantly is word " " which
-finacially sufficient state
-easiness
-favor ,grace ,kindeness (fazl)- ( 2 / 45)
) )
This word " " clearly describe the nature of inability.
RegardsBackward interpretation starting from a preconceived understnding then twist the meaning of the word. The root meaning is "length". The whole expression (Whatever one cannot reach); then work "whatever" from the context and the general sprit of the quraan Why is it difficult to marry muhsanat because of lack of funds, but being able to marry MMA (although for both one is commanded to pay ajr)? It's even "prohibited to marry the muhsanat". Where does God prohibit something because one does not have funds for it/ cannot financially afford it?
- ( 2 / 45)
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Backward interpretation starting from a preconceived understnding then twist the meaning of the word. The root meaning is "length". The whole expression (Whatever one cannot reach); then work "whatever" from the context and the general sprit of the quraan Why is it difficult to marry muhsanat because of lack of funds, but being able to marry MMA (although for both one is commanded to pay ajr)? It's even "prohibited to marry the muhsanat". Where does God prohibit something because one does not have funds for it/ cannot financially afford it?
Dear Samia
(ل .
Reference Maqyeesul lugha
004.025
YUSUFALI If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk, and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for free women (in that case). This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their dowries justly, they being chaste, not fornicating, nor receiving paramours; and when they are taken in marriage, then if they are guilty of indecency, they shall suffer half the punishment which is (inflicted) upon free women. This is for him among you who fears falling into evil; and that you abstain is better for you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.GA Pervaiz
25 Whoever amongst you cannot afford to marry a free believing woman, may marry a believing woman who is a captive. If you marry a captive woman, do not treat her as an inferior (because once she accepts Islam and marries you, she is at par with others). Allah knows all about your Ei?man (and Ei?man is the only consideration for distinction, otherwise) the one of you is as the other. Marry captive women with the permission of their custodians and pay them their appropriate dowers. If you marry these women, marry them for the purpose of leading a conjugal life and not for the mere satisfaction of your lust. Do not have a secret relationship with themMuhammad Asad
425And as for those of you who, owing to circumstances, are not in a position29 to marry free believing women, believing maidens from among those whom you rightfully possess.30 And God knows all about your faith; each one of you is an issue of the other.31 Marry them, then, with their people's leave, and give them their dowers in an equitable manner - they being women who give themselves in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions.32 And when they are married, and thereafter become guilty of immoral conduct, they shall be liable to half the penalty to which free married women are liable.33 This to those of you who fear lest they stumble into evil.34 But it is for your own good to persevere in patience and God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.
Regards
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Salamun alaykum
After this rather lengthy discussions/debates , what is the concensus on Definition of Marriage and Is sex before marriage permitted as per The Qur'an ?
Peace
almarh0m
peace Almarhom
I was hoping someone would redirect again so thanks bravoMy current understanding A commited independant (Don't live with parents) believing couple who have been known by others to be together are Quranically classified as married therefore sex is in the sight of God acceptable (IMO) and they are protected by moral law.
The traditional marriage to me is adding the government law protection to the moral law protection. Thus the commitment is more serious. When you pop the question of marriage or accept it, you are commiting the rest of your life (till death do us part). In a relationship, this is not the same. When a believer proposes, they invite to the possibility of a lifelong commitment (IMO). Even if the proposer starts a relationship with no intention of inviting to a lifelong commitment it is not quranically wrong as long as their motive is not sex then a relationhip is not wrong.
Samia
Sorry for derailing the threadNo problem
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samia salam
I am still shocked as to how could you come up with such a silly interpretation of this issue , and to top it up insist upon it?
sister , why are you misleading learners, and waisting everyone's time and effort? Did you go through the whole aya under discussion even once critically? Had you done that, you may not have come up with the nonsense that you are insistently posting.
4-25 And whoever among you has not within his power sufficient means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their wage in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. If they become protected, then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is (inflicted) upon free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that you practise self-restraint. And God is forgiving, Most Merciful.
It is being told that they must be given their ajars , and your aim should be to bring them under an honest wedlock(protection) not for fornication, or taking them as paramours/lovers. And if after coming into wedlock, if they become lewd, then the punishment,,,,,,,-----"
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If the people under discussion are sexually disabled, then why the above warning for both?
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If the people under discussion (MMA) is the bunch who is sexually disabled, are they likely to become lewd ?
Go on further, and read the last lines, the aya says, "This permission is for those who fear falling into sin, but if you can wait and practice self restrain, that is better for you".
- What kind of sins you are likely to fall into if you are not married, most probably sexual kind, then how come this advice is for those who are sexually disabled? Isn't it is for those who are sexually overcharged and hence can not wait?
Samia ,Thelps, rasul hamsa! IMHO You got to have frozen brains to conclude exactly the opposite. or may be,,,,
18-57 Who are more evil than those who are reminded of their Lord's proofs, they disregard them, without realizing what they are doing. Consequently, we place shields on their hearts to prevent them from understanding it , and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what you do to guide them, they can never ever be guided.
siki
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Slaam siki
samia salam
I am still shocked
Sorry
you may not have come up with the nonsense that you are insistently posting.
Not more nonesense than dividing women into "expensive" and "free of charge", slaves and free, chaste and unchaste
4-25 And whoever among you has not within his power sufficient means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their wage in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. If they become protected, then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is (inflicted) upon free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that you practise self-restraint. And God is forgiving, Most Merciful.
It is being told that they must be given their ajars , and your aim should be to bring them under an honest wedlock(protection) not for fornication, or taking them as paramours/lovers. And if after coming into wedlock, if they become lewd, then the punishment,,,,,,,-----"
siki
First The verse
What's the meaning of "marrying them" not for illicit sex or taking lovers? Why this partner expected to search for lovers or illicit sex? And what happens when they do? This verse can only be directed to someone who cannot perform sex. It says do not marry someone with the intention of allowing them to have sex elsewhere because you cannot give it. Do you think this does not happen?
3anat does not mean sin. It means "trouble/burden" which could be for any reason, including lonliness, lack of a companion. Those impotent or who cannot have sex still get married. The problem is that they are not honest about it and do not disclose their case to theri partners before marrying them. This is why it's followed by (and if you be patient, God is forgiving, most merciful). Why do you translate (taSbiru) as "practice slf restraint"? Patience does not have to be self restraint.Second Your underlined rendition
If marriage means sex, this rendition is redundant. If you marry them, how can't you take them as girl friends and how should you not have illicit sex with them? If you mean before marriage or instead of marriage, why is it mentioned for MMA? Is this OK with Muhsanat? The meaning is just because you cannot give them sex, this does not mean you should allow them to have lovers or get into illicit sex.-
If the people under discussion are sexually disabled, then why the above warning for both?
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If the people under discussion (MMA) is the bunch who is sexually disabled, are they likely to become lewd ?
They are not necessarily both disabled. The verse is not concerned with two who are both disabled, because then no problem arises. It's addressing the disabled one for whom muhsans (not disabled) are prohibited except those among those muhsans who agree, and then each of them will be committed by this oath "MMA"" to the other .
Go on further, and read the last lines, the aya says, "This permission is for those who fear falling into sin, but if you can wait and practice self restrain, that is better for you".
- What kind of sins you are likely to fall into if you are not married, most probably sexual kind, then how come this advice is for those who are sexually disabled? Isn't it is for those who are sexually overcharged and hence can not wait?
Circular argument. You translate "3anat " as sin, and specifically a sin realted to sex, and then work backward as why. It's hardship, not sin any hardship resulting form not having a companion, not being able to adopt a child, not being able to mix with married couples....to the end of the many advantages of marriage apart from sex. Or do you think that if one of the couples becomes secondarily impotent the marriage will be useless and fall apart?
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Peace Nyma,
I already gave you the answer about the written contract but looks like you just skim posts without proper attention and then you ask something that has already been explained in detail. Your careless attitude will be a big hindrance to your understanding the word of The God properly. It could be only two things either you are careless or you just want to follow your desires irrespective of what The God says in the qur'aan. I will repeat what I said before one last time. I will also STRONGLY encourage you to AT LEAST learn to recognize Arabic words so you can look up their meanings yourself because that is extremely important for proper understanding of The God's words in the qur'aan.
You wrongly infer from 2282 that it is talking about the marriage/nikah when it mentions a written contract and then you start making silly statements about how marriage can be for a fixed period of time. A written contract is for AJR/reward/gift and not nikah/marriage. According to 2282 we are commanded to have a written document in case of any transaction (tijarat) in which you lend or borrow something (tadaayantum) for a fixed period of time. In other words, we are asked to have a written document in case of ANY kind of DEBT to be paid back over or after a certain time period.
The ajr due after nikah/marriage can be such a kind of debt which the husband owes to the wife after nikah/marriage. It can be either paid in full at the time of nikah/marriage, in which case The God says that there is no blame if we do not record it in writing, or it can be paid later over or after a fixed period of time, in which case a written contract is ESSENTIAL. It still does not say "do not write it if given on the spot". So my understanding is that it is still PREFERABLE to have a written document but it is NOT REQUIRED if ajr is paid on full on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. The two male witnesses are ALWAYS necessary.
Nikah/marriage itself is a form of Ba-Ya-Ayn (tabaaya3tum) so two male witnesses are ESSENTIAL for nikah/marriage.
In summary
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Nikah/marriage performed and ajr paid in full at the time of nikah ------> two male witnesses essential but written contract not necessary but preferable.
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Nikah/marriage performed but ajr to be paid over or after a fixed period of time -------> two male witnesses essential + written contract essential.
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Peace Nyma,
I already gave you the answer about the written contract but looks like you just skim posts without proper attention and then you ask something that has already been explained in detail. Your careless attitude will be a big hindrance to your understanding the word of The God properly. It could be only two things either you are careless or you just want to follow your desires irrespective of what The God says in the qur'aan. I will repeat what I said before one last time. I will also STRONGLY encourage you to AT LEAST learn to recognize Arabic words so you can look up their meanings yourself because that is extremely important for proper understanding of The God's words in the qur'aan.
You wrongly infer from 2282 that it is talking about the marriage/nikah when it mentions a written contract and then you start making silly statements about how marriage can be for a fixed period of time. A written contract is for AJR/reward/gift and not nikah/marriage. According to 2282 we are commanded to have a written document in case of any transaction (tijarat) in which you lend or borrow something (tadaayantum) for a fixed period of time. In other words, we are asked to have a written document in case of ANY kind of DEBT to be paid back over or after a certain time period.
The ajr due after nikah/marriage can be such a kind of debt which the husband owes to the wife after nikah/marriage. It can be either paid in full at the time of nikah/marriage, in which case The God says that there is no blame if we do not record it in writing, or it can be paid later over or after a fixed period of time, in which case a written contract is ESSENTIAL. It still does not say "do not write it if given on the spot". So my understanding is that it is still PREFERABLE to have a written document but it is NOT REQUIRED if ajr is paid on full on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. The two male witnesses are ALWAYS necessary.
Nikah/marriage itself is a form of Ba-Ya-Ayn (tabaaya3tum) so two male witnesses are ESSENTIAL for nikah/marriage.
In summary
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Nikah/marriage performed and ajr paid in full at the time of nikah ------> two male witnesses essential but written contract not necessary but preferable.
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Nikah/marriage performed but ajr to be paid over or after a fixed period of time -------> two male witnesses essential + written contract essential.
Salam Truthseeker,
Can you please refer me to the verses for your claim that 2 male witnesses are required.
Thanks
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Peace Truthseeker
I already gave you the answer about the written contract
As far as i have looked, you did not give me an answer on written dowry
but looks like you just skim posts without proper attention
Your very wrong on this one.
It could be only two things either you are careless or you just want to follow your desires irrespective of what The God says in the qur'aan.
It could also be other things such as you skimming through my posts but i don't know. What i can tell you is that this is not an issue of desire for me. I can also tell you i spent at least an hour looking at your post on 2282 and the verse 2282 itself.
I will repeat what I said before one last time.
I appreciate your patience
I will also STRONGLY encourage you to AT LEAST learn to recognize Arabic words so you can look up their meanings yourself because that is extremely important for proper understanding of The God's words in the qur'aan.
I am familiar with the alphabet. I just don't know how to pick out roots of words. I might go after this skill sometime in the future.
You wrongly infer from 2282 that it is talking about the marriage/nikah when it mentions a written contract and then you start making silly statements about how marriage can be for a fixed period of time.
Not exactly. Based on your refrence to the root Ba-Ya-Ayn and it's meanings in which Making a covenant, an engagement were amongst them, and it's occurence in 2282. I infered that 2282 applied to all kinds of serious oaths and promises and i classified a proposal (marriage) as a serious commitment.
Further reading of 2282 made clear about witnesses (2 men or.....) and that a written contract was needed if this oath/serious commitment was not to be done on the spot.
When you said
I see that you still haven't replied to my detailed post addressed to almarhom in which I proved from the qur'aan that nikah/marriage ALWAYS requires two witnesses because it is a form of
,I understood you to mean that the root Ba-Ya-Ayn applies to the form of commitment nikah is.
Up to this point, do you agree that it is not compulsory to have a written marriage contract IF ajr was not a lump sum of money or something of financial value?
A written contract is for AJR/reward/gift and not nikah/marriage.
It can be for nikah if this was something not done on the spot. For example a marriage that is to protected by government law is not on the spot. But the invitation to a relationship is on the spot IMO. -
Peace everyone,
Mohsanat CANNOT mean chaste in the context of 425 because then it will lead to a NONSENSICAL interpretation. In 425 MOHSANAAT are contrasted with FATAYAAT. So if mohsanat are "chaste" then that would mean that "fatayaat" are unchaste.
In my understanding, mohsanat mean "protected" and according to the context they are those who are "self-protected and independent of guardian or family", and the fatayaat are those young women who are guardian/family dependent.
There are two kinds of mohsanaat
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Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by their own maturity and they can financially support themselves.
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Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by marriage.
According to 424 a man cannot marry any of these women unless they are possessed by his oath. So you have to make an oath of marriage with her first and then you can get married. An already married woman (category 2 above) is already possessed by/committed to someone else's oath so we cannot make her our ma malakat aymanukum.
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Peace Nyma,
You are YET AGAIN not reading 2282 properly brickwall brickwall brickwall
I think this is because you cannot read Arabic.
Can please explaing how ajr is linked to the root Ba-Ya-Ayn
IT IS NOT LINKED TO BA-YA-AYN. READ MY POST ABOVE AGAIN WITH GLASSES PLEASE. WHERE DID I SAY THAT? I clearly said that NIKAH/MARRIAGE is linked to "BA-YA-AYN". When you cannot even understand what I am saying then how can you understand what The God is saying. giveup
AJR is linked to "TADAAYANTUM" root "DYN", and to "TIJAARAT" root "TJR". The commandments about written contract are for "tijaarat" from TJR and "tadaayantum" from DYN.
You won't understand it until you can read the Arabic of that sign. In the first part it talks about witnesses and written contract for "tadaayantum"/you are indebted/you borrow or lend, and for "tijaarat"/trade or transaction. In the second part it talks about witnesses for "BA-YA-AYN".
I am sorry but giveup
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Peace everyone,
Mohsanat CANNOT mean chaste in the context of 425 because then it will lead to a NONSENSICAL interpretation. In 425 MOHSANAAT are contrasted with FATAYAAT. So if mohsanat are "chaste" then that would mean that "fatayaat" are unchaste.
In my understanding, mohsanat mean "protected" and according to the context they are those who are "self-protected and independent of guardian or family", and the fatayaat are those young women who are guardian/family dependent.
There are two kinds of mohsanaat
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Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by their own maturity and they can financially support themselves.
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Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by marriage.
According to 424 a man cannot marry any of these women unless they are possessed by his oath. So you have to make an oath of marriage with her first and then you can get married. An already married woman (category 2 above) is already possessed by/committed to someone else's oath so we cannot make her our ma malakat aymanukum.
Dear Truth Seeker
You saidSo you have to make an oath of marriage with her first and then you can get married.
Would you please explain this "Oath of Marriage' before marriage ?
Is marriage by itself not a Cotract (Oath) ? What is the reason of double oath ? Who are these ladies ?
Regards -
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Peace Nyma,
Up to this point, do you agree that it is not compulsory to have a written marriage contract IF ajr was not a lump sum of money or something of financial value?
According to 2282, a written contract is for something you owe, so it is essential only if ajr (whatever it is) is not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. If ajr (whatever it is) is given on the spot AT THE TIME OF NIKAH then a written contract is not required although it is still preferred.
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Peace student,
Thank you for correcting me. I was writing in haste.
I meant OATH TO GET MARRIED/OATH OF ENGAGEMENT.
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According to 2282 we are commanded to have a written document in case of any transaction (tijarat) in which you lend or borrow something (tadaayantum) for a fixed period of time. In other words, we are asked to have a written document in case of ANY kind of DEBT to be paid back over or after a certain time period.
The ajr due after nikah/marriage can be such a kind of debt which the husband owes to the wife after nikah/marriage. It can be either paid in full at the time of nikah/marriage, in which case The God says that there is no blame if we do not record it in writing, or it can be paid later over or after a fixed period of time, in which case a written contract is ESSENTIAL. It still does not say "do not write it if given on the spot". So my understanding is that it is still PREFERABLE to have a written document but it is NOT REQUIRED if ajr is paid on full on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. The two male witnesses are ALWAYS necessary.
I disagree with ajr relating to finance as no solid verse links ajr to financial transactions. Where does the Quran say that ajr is finance related or where does it say or imply that it is a FINANCIAL debt. In light of this i have come to think and change my mind that ajr is not just a present or gift but it is something else as it would not make sense for Ajr to be just what we understand as gift (flowers, rings....)
Hence where does the Quran require a written dowry or ajr (have i skimmed?)
Nikah/marriage itself is a form of Ba-Ya-Ayn (tabaaya3tum) so two male witnesses are ESSENTIAL for nikah/marriage.
Via this i accepted the need for witnesses.
Question remains
Written Ajr??
peace peace
