Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!

Samia

Slaam siki

samia salam

I am still shocked

Sorry

you may not have come up with the nonsense that you are insistently posting.

Not more nonesense than dividing women into "expensive" and "free of charge", slaves and free, chaste and unchaste

4-25 And whoever among you has not within his power sufficient means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens; and Allah knows best your faith you are (sprung) the one from the other; so marry them with the permission of their masters, and give them their wage in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. If they become protected, then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is (inflicted) upon free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that you practise self-restraint. And God is forgiving, Most Merciful.

It is being told that they must be given their ajars , and your aim should be to bring them under an honest wedlock(protection) not for fornication, or taking them as paramours/lovers. And if after coming into wedlock, if they become lewd, then the punishment,,,,,,,-----"

siki

First The verse
What's the meaning of "marrying them" not for illicit sex or taking lovers? Why this partner expected to search for lovers or illicit sex? And what happens when they do? This verse can only be directed to someone who cannot perform sex. It says do not marry someone with the intention of allowing them to have sex elsewhere because you cannot give it. Do you think this does not happen?
3anat does not mean sin. It means "trouble/burden" which could be for any reason, including lonliness, lack of a companion. Those impotent or who cannot have sex still get married. The problem is that they are not honest about it and do not disclose their case to theri partners before marrying them. This is why it's followed by (and if you be patient, God is forgiving, most merciful). Why do you translate (taSbiru) as "practice slf restraint"? Patience does not have to be self restraint.

Second Your underlined rendition
If marriage means sex, this rendition is redundant. If you marry them, how can't you take them as girl friends and how should you not have illicit sex with them? If you mean before marriage or instead of marriage, why is it mentioned for MMA? Is this OK with Muhsanat? The meaning is just because you cannot give them sex, this does not mean you should allow them to have lovers or get into illicit sex.

If the people under discussion are sexually disabled, then why the above warning for both?
If the people under discussion (MMA) is the bunch who is sexually disabled, are they likely to become lewd ?

They are not necessarily both disabled. The verse is not concerned with two who are both disabled, because then no problem arises. It's addressing the disabled one for whom muhsans (not disabled) are prohibited except those among those muhsans who agree, and then each of them will be committed by this oath "MMA"" to the other .

Go on further, and read the last lines, the aya says, "This permission is for those who fear falling into sin, but if you can wait and practice self restrain, that is better for you".

What kind of sins you are likely to fall into if you are not married, most probably sexual kind, then how come this advice is for those who are sexually disabled? Isn't it is for those who are sexually overcharged and hence can not wait?

Circular argument. You translate "3anat " as sin, and specifically a sin realted to sex, and then work backward as why. It's hardship, not sin any hardship resulting form not having a companion, not being able to adopt a child, not being able to mix with married couples....to the end of the many advantages of marriage apart from sex. Or do you think that if one of the couples becomes secondarily impotent the marriage will be useless and fall apart?

Wakas

peace,

After this rather lengthy discussions/debates , what is the concensus on Definition of Marriage and Is sex before marriage permitted as per The Qur'an ?

Quantity does not necessarily mean quality.

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

I already gave you the answer about the written contract but looks like you just skim posts without proper attention and then you ask something that has already been explained in detail. Your careless attitude will be a big hindrance to your understanding the word of The God properly. It could be only two things either you are careless or you just want to follow your desires irrespective of what The God says in the qur'aan. I will repeat what I said before one last time. I will also STRONGLY encourage you to AT LEAST learn to recognize Arabic words so you can look up their meanings yourself because that is extremely important for proper understanding of The God's words in the qur'aan.

You wrongly infer from 2282 that it is talking about the marriage/nikah when it mentions a written contract and then you start making silly statements about how marriage can be for a fixed period of time. A written contract is for AJR/reward/gift and not nikah/marriage. According to 2282 we are commanded to have a written document in case of any transaction (tijarat) in which you lend or borrow something (tadaayantum) for a fixed period of time. In other words, we are asked to have a written document in case of ANY kind of DEBT to be paid back over or after a certain time period.

The ajr due after nikah/marriage can be such a kind of debt which the husband owes to the wife after nikah/marriage. It can be either paid in full at the time of nikah/marriage, in which case The God says that there is no blame if we do not record it in writing, or it can be paid later over or after a fixed period of time, in which case a written contract is ESSENTIAL. It still does not say "do not write it if given on the spot". So my understanding is that it is still PREFERABLE to have a written document but it is NOT REQUIRED if ajr is paid on full on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. The two male witnesses are ALWAYS necessary.

Nikah/marriage itself is a form of Ba-Ya-Ayn (tabaaya3tum) so two male witnesses are ESSENTIAL for nikah/marriage.

In summary

Nikah/marriage performed and ajr paid in full at the time of nikah ------> two male witnesses essential but written contract not necessary but preferable.
Nikah/marriage performed but ajr to be paid over or after a fixed period of time -------> two male witnesses essential + written contract essential.

nsws1988

Peace Nyma,

I already gave you the answer about the written contract but looks like you just skim posts without proper attention and then you ask something that has already been explained in detail. Your careless attitude will be a big hindrance to your understanding the word of The God properly. It could be only two things either you are careless or you just want to follow your desires irrespective of what The God says in the qur'aan. I will repeat what I said before one last time. I will also STRONGLY encourage you to AT LEAST learn to recognize Arabic words so you can look up their meanings yourself because that is extremely important for proper understanding of The God's words in the qur'aan.

You wrongly infer from 2282 that it is talking about the marriage/nikah when it mentions a written contract and then you start making silly statements about how marriage can be for a fixed period of time. A written contract is for AJR/reward/gift and not nikah/marriage. According to 2282 we are commanded to have a written document in case of any transaction (tijarat) in which you lend or borrow something (tadaayantum) for a fixed period of time. In other words, we are asked to have a written document in case of ANY kind of DEBT to be paid back over or after a certain time period.

The ajr due after nikah/marriage can be such a kind of debt which the husband owes to the wife after nikah/marriage. It can be either paid in full at the time of nikah/marriage, in which case The God says that there is no blame if we do not record it in writing, or it can be paid later over or after a fixed period of time, in which case a written contract is ESSENTIAL. It still does not say "do not write it if given on the spot". So my understanding is that it is still PREFERABLE to have a written document but it is NOT REQUIRED if ajr is paid on full on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. The two male witnesses are ALWAYS necessary.

Nikah/marriage itself is a form of Ba-Ya-Ayn (tabaaya3tum) so two male witnesses are ESSENTIAL for nikah/marriage.

In summary

Nikah/marriage performed and ajr paid in full at the time of nikah ------> two male witnesses essential but written contract not necessary but preferable.
Nikah/marriage performed but ajr to be paid over or after a fixed period of time -------> two male witnesses essential + written contract essential.

Salam Truthseeker,

Can you please refer me to the verses for your claim that 2 male witnesses are required.

Thanks

nimnimak_11

Peace Truthseeker

I already gave you the answer about the written contract

As far as i have looked, you did not give me an answer on written dowry

but looks like you just skim posts without proper attention

Your very wrong on this one.

It could be only two things either you are careless or you just want to follow your desires irrespective of what The God says in the qur'aan.

It could also be other things such as you skimming through my posts but i don't know. What i can tell you is that this is not an issue of desire for me. I can also tell you i spent at least an hour looking at your post on 2282 and the verse 2282 itself.

I will repeat what I said before one last time.

I appreciate your patience

I will also STRONGLY encourage you to AT LEAST learn to recognize Arabic words so you can look up their meanings yourself because that is extremely important for proper understanding of The God's words in the qur'aan.

I am familiar with the alphabet. I just don't know how to pick out roots of words. I might go after this skill sometime in the future.

You wrongly infer from 2282 that it is talking about the marriage/nikah when it mentions a written contract and then you start making silly statements about how marriage can be for a fixed period of time.

Not exactly. Based on your refrence to the root Ba-Ya-Ayn and it's meanings in which Making a covenant, an engagement were amongst them, and it's occurence in 2282. I infered that 2282 applied to all kinds of serious oaths and promises and i classified a proposal (marriage) as a serious commitment.

Further reading of 2282 made clear about witnesses (2 men or.....) and that a written contract was needed if this oath/serious commitment was not to be done on the spot.

When you said
I see that you still haven't replied to my detailed post addressed to almarhom in which I proved from the qur'aan that nikah/marriage ALWAYS requires two witnesses because it is a form of
,

I understood you to mean that the root Ba-Ya-Ayn applies to the form of commitment nikah is.

Up to this point, do you agree that it is not compulsory to have a written marriage contract IF ajr was not a lump sum of money or something of financial value?

A written contract is for AJR/reward/gift and not nikah/marriage.
It can be for nikah if this was something not done on the spot. For example a marriage that is to protected by government law is not on the spot. But the invitation to a relationship is on the spot IMO.

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

Mohsanat CANNOT mean chaste in the context of 425 because then it will lead to a NONSENSICAL interpretation. In 425 MOHSANAAT are contrasted with FATAYAAT. So if mohsanat are "chaste" then that would mean that "fatayaat" are unchaste.

In my understanding, mohsanat mean "protected" and according to the context they are those who are "self-protected and independent of guardian or family", and the fatayaat are those young women who are guardian/family dependent.

There are two kinds of mohsanaat

Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by their own maturity and they can financially support themselves.
Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by marriage.

According to 424 a man cannot marry any of these women unless they are possessed by his oath. So you have to make an oath of marriage with her first and then you can get married. An already married woman (category 2 above) is already possessed by/committed to someone else's oath so we cannot make her our ma malakat aymanukum.

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

You are YET AGAIN not reading 2282 properly brickwall brickwall brickwall

I think this is because you cannot read Arabic.

Can please explaing how ajr is linked to the root Ba-Ya-Ayn

IT IS NOT LINKED TO BA-YA-AYN. READ MY POST ABOVE AGAIN WITH GLASSES PLEASE. WHERE DID I SAY THAT? I clearly said that NIKAH/MARRIAGE is linked to "BA-YA-AYN". When you cannot even understand what I am saying then how can you understand what The God is saying. giveup

AJR is linked to "TADAAYANTUM" root "DYN", and to "TIJAARAT" root "TJR". The commandments about written contract are for "tijaarat" from TJR and "tadaayantum" from DYN.

You won't understand it until you can read the Arabic of that sign. In the first part it talks about witnesses and written contract for "tadaayantum"/you are indebted/you borrow or lend, and for "tijaarat"/trade or transaction. In the second part it talks about witnesses for "BA-YA-AYN".

I am sorry but giveup

Q_student

Peace everyone,

Mohsanat CANNOT mean chaste in the context of 425 because then it will lead to a NONSENSICAL interpretation. In 425 MOHSANAAT are contrasted with FATAYAAT. So if mohsanat are "chaste" then that would mean that "fatayaat" are unchaste.

In my understanding, mohsanat mean "protected" and according to the context they are those who are "self-protected and independent of guardian or family", and the fatayaat are those young women who are guardian/family dependent.

There are two kinds of mohsanaat

Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by their own maturity and they can financially support themselves.
Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by marriage.

According to 424 a man cannot marry any of these women unless they are possessed by his oath. So you have to make an oath of marriage with her first and then you can get married. An already married woman (category 2 above) is already possessed by/committed to someone else's oath so we cannot make her our ma malakat aymanukum.

Dear Truth Seeker
You said

So you have to make an oath of marriage with her first and then you can get married.

Would you please explain this "Oath of Marriage' before marriage ?
Is marriage by itself not a Cotract (Oath) ? What is the reason of double oath ? Who are these ladies ?
Regards

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

Up to this point, do you agree that it is not compulsory to have a written marriage contract IF ajr was not a lump sum of money or something of financial value?

According to 2282, a written contract is for something you owe, so it is essential only if ajr (whatever it is) is not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. If ajr (whatever it is) is given on the spot AT THE TIME OF NIKAH then a written contract is not required although it is still preferred.

truthseeker11

Peace student,

Thank you for correcting me. I was writing in haste.

I meant OATH TO GET MARRIED/OATH OF ENGAGEMENT.

nimnimak_11

According to 2282 we are commanded to have a written document in case of any transaction (tijarat) in which you lend or borrow something (tadaayantum) for a fixed period of time. In other words, we are asked to have a written document in case of ANY kind of DEBT to be paid back over or after a certain time period.

The ajr due after nikah/marriage can be such a kind of debt which the husband owes to the wife after nikah/marriage. It can be either paid in full at the time of nikah/marriage, in which case The God says that there is no blame if we do not record it in writing, or it can be paid later over or after a fixed period of time, in which case a written contract is ESSENTIAL. It still does not say "do not write it if given on the spot". So my understanding is that it is still PREFERABLE to have a written document but it is NOT REQUIRED if ajr is paid on full on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. The two male witnesses are ALWAYS necessary.

I disagree with ajr relating to finance as no solid verse links ajr to financial transactions. Where does the Quran say that ajr is finance related or where does it say or imply that it is a FINANCIAL debt. In light of this i have come to think and change my mind that ajr is not just a present or gift but it is something else as it would not make sense for Ajr to be just what we understand as gift (flowers, rings....)

Hence where does the Quran require a written dowry or ajr (have i skimmed?)

Nikah/marriage itself is a form of Ba-Ya-Ayn (tabaaya3tum) so two male witnesses are ESSENTIAL for nikah/marriage.

Via this i accepted the need for witnesses.

Question remains

Written Ajr??

peace peace

Q_student

Peace student,

Thank you for correcting me. I was writing in haste.

I meant OATH TO GET MARRIED/OATH OF ENGAGEMENT.

Dear Brother
Again I have reservation about "Malaka" .Does it mean Engagement ? Are you sure ?
Regards

truthseeker11

Peace N,

Can you please refer me to the verses for your claim that 2 male witnesses are required.

Thank you for the correction. It has to be two RIJAAL/breadwinners according to 2282. Usually/mostly they are males but can be female too if the females are the RIJAAL.

nimnimak_11

Now i get you

You won't understand it until you can read the Arabic of that sign. In the first part it talks about witnesses and written contract for "tadaayantum"/you are indebted/you borrow or lend, and for "tijaarat"/trade or transaction. In the second part it talks about witnesses for "BA-YA-AYN".

Can you tell me why you link ajr to finance??

nimnimak_11

According to 2282, a written contract is for something you owe, so it is essential only if ajr (whatever it is) is not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. If ajr (whatever it is) is given on the spot AT THE TIME OF NIKAH then a written contract is not required although it is still preferred.

But if ajr is not financial, why are we linking it to 2282/// ??? ??? ???

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

Check your vision again please. Did I use the word "financial" ANYWHERE in that post?

Ajr is a reward/gift which could be anything of intrinsic value, and is mutually agreed by the two parties. It can include financial gift/reward too.

Whenever AJR is delayed and not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage, then A WRITTEN CONTRACT IS ESSENTIAL. 2282 talks about ANY DEBT "tadaayantum" during any "tijaarat"/transaction/trade. It could be a financial debt or otherwise in a financial or nonfinancial trade/transaction. Whenever you owe anyone ANYTHING OF INTRINSIC VALUE.

truthseeker11

Peace student,

Again I have reservation about "Malaka" .Does it mean Engagement ? Are you sure ?

Ma malakat aymanukum is "what possessed by your oath". What kind of oath is determined by the context. In the context of marriage, it can only be an oath to get married.

nimnimak_11

Peace Nyma,

Check your vision again please. Did I use the word "financial" ANYWHERE in that post?

Ajr is a reward/gift which could be anything of intrinsic value, and is mutually agreed by the two parties. It can include financial gift/reward too.

Whenever AJR is delayed and not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage, then A WRITTEN CONTRACT IS ESSENTIAL. 2282 talks about ANY DEBT "tadaayantum" during any "tijaarat"/transaction/trade. It could be a financial debt or otherwise in a financial trade or nonfinancial trade. Whenever you owe anyone ANYTHING OF INTRINSIC VALUE.

Thank you for making it clearer for me.

Am i write in guessing that Ajr has to be physical hence the verse 2237?
Are there any verses that say it has to be something of intrinsic value? In other words something of the attributes which can relate to 2282?

To this point i sincerely appreciate your patience. I feel that we are possibly coming to a mutual understanding hence i ask of you to be patient for A LITTLE longer.

Thanks,
peace

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

We are asked to GIVE THEM THEIR UJOOR wherever it is mentioned in the context of marriage. So it has to be something physical. The only way you can give her HALF as per 2237 also proves it has to be something physical and also something which can be divided in half. How can you reward someone with something that has no intrinsic value to that person?

2282 talks about anything that can be borrowed/lent/owed. When you don't give the ajr to the wife on the spot at the time of nikah, you owe it to her and hence comes under "tadaayantum".

nimnimak_11

Peace Truthseeker

How can you reward someone with something that has no intrinsic value to that person?

The current point i'm trying to make is that

If you offer or want an ajr that HAS intrinsic/financial value then as reason would also agree it is better to write it down so it is protected by law (government) this is typical in all things that have great intrinsic and financial value.

But there are 2 issues to this

what someone interprets as great enough intrinsic or financial value to write down to protect legally
2)wether they even want something like that

It might well be that a couple agree on two branches of rose.

Perhaps the concept of ajr is a completely different concept to a different generation or society. In the past someone may have wanted a valuable ajr to protect themselves. Hence to protect the ajr, it was essential for them to write it down. Today someone might be happy with something that is not valuable. Dosn't the Quran leave this up to them???

peace peace