Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!

Q_student

Peace everyone,

Mohsanat CANNOT mean chaste in the context of 425 because then it will lead to a NONSENSICAL interpretation. In 425 MOHSANAAT are contrasted with FATAYAAT. So if mohsanat are "chaste" then that would mean that "fatayaat" are unchaste.

In my understanding, mohsanat mean "protected" and according to the context they are those who are "self-protected and independent of guardian or family", and the fatayaat are those young women who are guardian/family dependent.

There are two kinds of mohsanaat

Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by their own maturity and they can financially support themselves.
Those who are independent of guardian/family and protected by marriage.

According to 424 a man cannot marry any of these women unless they are possessed by his oath. So you have to make an oath of marriage with her first and then you can get married. An already married woman (category 2 above) is already possessed by/committed to someone else's oath so we cannot make her our ma malakat aymanukum.

Dear Truth Seeker
You said

So you have to make an oath of marriage with her first and then you can get married.

Would you please explain this "Oath of Marriage' before marriage ?
Is marriage by itself not a Cotract (Oath) ? What is the reason of double oath ? Who are these ladies ?
Regards

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

Up to this point, do you agree that it is not compulsory to have a written marriage contract IF ajr was not a lump sum of money or something of financial value?

According to 2282, a written contract is for something you owe, so it is essential only if ajr (whatever it is) is not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. If ajr (whatever it is) is given on the spot AT THE TIME OF NIKAH then a written contract is not required although it is still preferred.

truthseeker11

Peace student,

Thank you for correcting me. I was writing in haste.

I meant OATH TO GET MARRIED/OATH OF ENGAGEMENT.

nimnimak_11

According to 2282 we are commanded to have a written document in case of any transaction (tijarat) in which you lend or borrow something (tadaayantum) for a fixed period of time. In other words, we are asked to have a written document in case of ANY kind of DEBT to be paid back over or after a certain time period.

The ajr due after nikah/marriage can be such a kind of debt which the husband owes to the wife after nikah/marriage. It can be either paid in full at the time of nikah/marriage, in which case The God says that there is no blame if we do not record it in writing, or it can be paid later over or after a fixed period of time, in which case a written contract is ESSENTIAL. It still does not say "do not write it if given on the spot". So my understanding is that it is still PREFERABLE to have a written document but it is NOT REQUIRED if ajr is paid on full on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. The two male witnesses are ALWAYS necessary.

I disagree with ajr relating to finance as no solid verse links ajr to financial transactions. Where does the Quran say that ajr is finance related or where does it say or imply that it is a FINANCIAL debt. In light of this i have come to think and change my mind that ajr is not just a present or gift but it is something else as it would not make sense for Ajr to be just what we understand as gift (flowers, rings....)

Hence where does the Quran require a written dowry or ajr (have i skimmed?)

Nikah/marriage itself is a form of Ba-Ya-Ayn (tabaaya3tum) so two male witnesses are ESSENTIAL for nikah/marriage.

Via this i accepted the need for witnesses.

Question remains

Written Ajr??

peace peace

Q_student

Peace student,

Thank you for correcting me. I was writing in haste.

I meant OATH TO GET MARRIED/OATH OF ENGAGEMENT.

Dear Brother
Again I have reservation about "Malaka" .Does it mean Engagement ? Are you sure ?
Regards

truthseeker11

Peace N,

Can you please refer me to the verses for your claim that 2 male witnesses are required.

Thank you for the correction. It has to be two RIJAAL/breadwinners according to 2282. Usually/mostly they are males but can be female too if the females are the RIJAAL.

nimnimak_11

Now i get you

You won't understand it until you can read the Arabic of that sign. In the first part it talks about witnesses and written contract for "tadaayantum"/you are indebted/you borrow or lend, and for "tijaarat"/trade or transaction. In the second part it talks about witnesses for "BA-YA-AYN".

Can you tell me why you link ajr to finance??

nimnimak_11

According to 2282, a written contract is for something you owe, so it is essential only if ajr (whatever it is) is not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. If ajr (whatever it is) is given on the spot AT THE TIME OF NIKAH then a written contract is not required although it is still preferred.

But if ajr is not financial, why are we linking it to 2282/// ??? ??? ???

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

Check your vision again please. Did I use the word "financial" ANYWHERE in that post?

Ajr is a reward/gift which could be anything of intrinsic value, and is mutually agreed by the two parties. It can include financial gift/reward too.

Whenever AJR is delayed and not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage, then A WRITTEN CONTRACT IS ESSENTIAL. 2282 talks about ANY DEBT "tadaayantum" during any "tijaarat"/transaction/trade. It could be a financial debt or otherwise in a financial or nonfinancial trade/transaction. Whenever you owe anyone ANYTHING OF INTRINSIC VALUE.

truthseeker11

Peace student,

Again I have reservation about "Malaka" .Does it mean Engagement ? Are you sure ?

Ma malakat aymanukum is "what possessed by your oath". What kind of oath is determined by the context. In the context of marriage, it can only be an oath to get married.

nimnimak_11

Peace Nyma,

Check your vision again please. Did I use the word "financial" ANYWHERE in that post?

Ajr is a reward/gift which could be anything of intrinsic value, and is mutually agreed by the two parties. It can include financial gift/reward too.

Whenever AJR is delayed and not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage, then A WRITTEN CONTRACT IS ESSENTIAL. 2282 talks about ANY DEBT "tadaayantum" during any "tijaarat"/transaction/trade. It could be a financial debt or otherwise in a financial trade or nonfinancial trade. Whenever you owe anyone ANYTHING OF INTRINSIC VALUE.

Thank you for making it clearer for me.

Am i write in guessing that Ajr has to be physical hence the verse 2237?
Are there any verses that say it has to be something of intrinsic value? In other words something of the attributes which can relate to 2282?

To this point i sincerely appreciate your patience. I feel that we are possibly coming to a mutual understanding hence i ask of you to be patient for A LITTLE longer.

Thanks,
peace

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

We are asked to GIVE THEM THEIR UJOOR wherever it is mentioned in the context of marriage. So it has to be something physical. The only way you can give her HALF as per 2237 also proves it has to be something physical and also something which can be divided in half. How can you reward someone with something that has no intrinsic value to that person?

2282 talks about anything that can be borrowed/lent/owed. When you don't give the ajr to the wife on the spot at the time of nikah, you owe it to her and hence comes under "tadaayantum".

nimnimak_11

Peace Truthseeker

How can you reward someone with something that has no intrinsic value to that person?

The current point i'm trying to make is that

If you offer or want an ajr that HAS intrinsic/financial value then as reason would also agree it is better to write it down so it is protected by law (government) this is typical in all things that have great intrinsic and financial value.

But there are 2 issues to this

what someone interprets as great enough intrinsic or financial value to write down to protect legally
2)wether they even want something like that

It might well be that a couple agree on two branches of rose.

Perhaps the concept of ajr is a completely different concept to a different generation or society. In the past someone may have wanted a valuable ajr to protect themselves. Hence to protect the ajr, it was essential for them to write it down. Today someone might be happy with something that is not valuable. Dosn't the Quran leave this up to them???

peace peace

nsws1988

Peace N,

Thank you for the correction. It has to be two RIJAAL/breadwinners according to 2282. Usually/mostly they are males but can be female too if the females are the RIJAAL.

Peace

Thanks for your explanation.
Rijaal means men. Why do you say that it can mean breadwinner? What has that got to do with being a witness?

Part of 2282 "And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one of the two erreth (through forgetfulness) the one of them will remind"

Why 2 women instead of 1? Because women are forgetful? Aren't men forgetful too?
If there are any gender differences at all, women are supposed to have better long-term memory than men.

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

Perhaps the concept of ajr is a completely different concept to a different generation or society. In the past someone may have wanted a valuable ajr hence to protect it, it was better for them to write it down. Today someone might be happy with something that is not valuable. Dosn't the Quran leave this up to them???

We have to go by what word has been used. The word used is "ajr" which has been used majority of time in the qur'aan for reward on the Last Day. SO IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS VALUABLE TO THE PERSON BEING AWARDED. Do you mean to say that The God will just give a bunch of roses to the believers on the Last Day and then say "aha I have given you the ajr that I promised". So one rose to the peacemaker and double that i.e. two roses for the believer. P

Therefore, ajr in the context of marriage has to be something valuable.

nimnimak_11

peace Truthseeker

The word used is "ajr" which has been used majority of time in the qur'aan for reward on the Last Day. SO IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS VALUABLE TO THE PERSON BEING AWARDED. Do you mean to say that The God will just give a bunch of roses to the believers on the Last Day and then say "aha I have given you the ajr that I promised". So one rose to the peacemaker and double that i.e. two roses for the believer.

;D

With regards to
SO IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS VALUABLE TO THE PERSON BEING AWARDED

Can we link a God given Ajr to a human given ajr? What i mean is that in many verses of the Quran, the God given ajr is described (so we know it to be valuable) the human given ajr or the ajr in marriage has not been described and thus left open to us from the looks of things.

Thus if the person who the ajr is being awarded to dosn't want anything valuable and asks for two roses. What then? Has anyone wronged themselves in this case? I see no restrictions nor can i imagine any wrongness in this.

Do you still think Ajr HAS to be valuable?

peace peace

nimnimak_11

By the way i apologise for saying that you said finance

Check your vision again please. Did I use the word "financial" ANYWHERE in that post?

peace

truthseeker11

Peace N,

Rijaal means men. Why do you say that it can mean breadwinner? What has that got to do with being a witness?

What does this mean

2282 .................waistashhidoo shaheedayni min rijalikum................
2282 .................bring two witnesses from among your men............

You are right. In the context of 2282 "rijaal" can only mean "men" because it is contrasted with "imra'at"/woman.

The primary meaning of "rajul" is "one who goes out on foot" and in some signs it is used with this meaning, and in those signs the context refers to the one who goes out on foot to earn livelihood i.e. breadwinner. "Man" is a secondary meaning, because usually men go out on foot to earn livelihood. Sister Samia can better educate you on this.

Part of 2282 "And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one of the two erreth (through forgetfulness) the one of them will remind"

The "through forgetfulness" is in brackets and is not there in Arabic.

Women can err/get confused because of premenstrual syndrome or PMS.

PMS (premenstrual syndrome) often includes both physical and emotional symptoms. Common symptoms are

acne
breast swelling and tenderness
feeling tired
having trouble sleeping
upset stomach, bloating, constipation, or diarrhea
headache or backache
appetite changes or food cravings
joint or muscle pain
trouble concentrating or remembering
tension, irritability, mood swings, or crying spells
anxiety or depression

http//www.womenshealth.gov/FAQ/premenstrual-syndrome.cfm

psychological symptoms of PMS

irritability
nervousness
lack of control
agitation
anger
insomnia
difficulty in concentrating
lethargy
depression
severe fatigue
anxiety
confusion
forgetfulness
decreased self-image
paranoia
emotional hypersensitivity
crying spells
moodiness
sleep disturbances

http//www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/uvahealth/adult_gyneonc/pms.cfm

The second woman witnesses just to remind the first woman in case she errs/gets confused because of PMS etc. So the actual testimony in court is only of one woman. If the first woman does not err then only she testifies and the second one does not testify. So testimony of one woman = one man.

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

By the way i apologise for saying that you said finance

No problem handshake

Can we link a God given Ajr to a human given ajr? What i mean is that in many verses of the Quran, the God given ajr is described (so we know it to be valuable) the human given ajr or the ajr in marriage has not been described and thus left open to us from the looks of things.

So when God gives it has to be valuable but when human gives it does not have to be valuable? In majority of the signs it just says that God will give them the ajr for their deeds and does not describe it. Ajr can only be something of intrinsic value and how much will depend on the deed.

262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; they will have their reward/ajruhum with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.

Where is the description in this sign?

There are many many other signs where AJR is mentioned with no description.

Actually the following signs prove it is valuable because what will be given on the Last Day will be equivalent to something valuable in this life

2262 Those who spend their money/wealth/property in the cause of God, then they do not follow what they have spent with either insult or harm; they will have their reward/ajruhum with their Lord, there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.

2274 Those who spend their money/wealth/property in the night and in the day, secretly and openly, they will have their reward with their Lord, there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.

Here "ajr" is directly equated with money/property/wealth (amwaal), which is something valuable.

Thus if the person who the ajr is being awarded to dosn't want anything valuable and asks for two roses. What then? Has anyone wronged themselves in this case? I see no restrictions nor can i imagine any wrongness in this.

Ajr is mutually agreed upon. So the wife can completely remit/forego it too if she wants.

Do you still think Ajr HAS to be valuable?

Yes, it HAS to be valuable (2262). Then it is up to the wife. It is something valuable which is mutually agreed upon. She can completely forego it too if she wants, in which case the husband doesn't have to give her anything. (424 and 2237)

nimnimak_11

Peace Truthseeker

In majority of the signs it just says that God will give them the ajr for their deeds and does not describe it. Ajr can only be something of intrinsic value and how much will depend on the deed

3136 To these the reward will be forgiveness from their Lord and gardens with rivers flowing underneath, eternally abiding in it. Excellent is the reward of the workers.

Actually the following signs prove it is valuable because what will be given on the Last Day will be equivalent to something valuable in this life

The verses you have quoted though are all God's ajr.

If it is to be called ajr(reward), then logically it must have some good intrinsic value. in 3136 God's ajr is descried as excellent.

But what i question is the level of intrinsic value a human ajr has to have. It must have intrinsic value but how valuable?? As valuable as a box of choclates where surely there is no need to write anything down in this case as the intrisic value is not that great.

Could this mean that ajr could be either one sum or something that you just give like gifts throughout a relationship?

You don't have to be married to give Ajr right? So it is possible that you may be giving ajr to someone whom you have not yet married. But once the proposal is in place (provided your intentions are pure) and it becomes official (not secret) then your married and in the light of the Quran it is acceptable to have sex angel

Ajr is mutually agreed upon. So the wife can completely remit/forego it too if she wants.

So you can be married without ajr if your partner is ok wihout an ajr

Now i conclude the minimum steps requiered to get married are

Propose (with pure intentions)
Make it known
Decide on ajr

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnd your married!!!!

Deciding on ajr in today's society however is different to the past. In the past women may have wanted an ajr agreed to before marriage. But today in the west, no one as far as i know asks for ajr thus automatically forgoing.

I think ajr in a relationship can be accepted as simple gifts like flowers as they do have intrinsic value. More serious marriages could have very valuable objects such as house deeds in which case there is a written contract.

Now am i write in saying that it is possible to get married without

A written marriage contract
A written Ajr contract

Provided other minimum criteria are met

I give you and others my thanks for all that i have learnt in this thread. I can safely discuss this with others using BETTER quranic evidence.

peace peace