Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!

Q_student

Peace student,

Thank you for correcting me. I was writing in haste.

I meant OATH TO GET MARRIED/OATH OF ENGAGEMENT.

Dear Brother
Again I have reservation about "Malaka" .Does it mean Engagement ? Are you sure ?
Regards

truthseeker11

Peace N,

Can you please refer me to the verses for your claim that 2 male witnesses are required.

Thank you for the correction. It has to be two RIJAAL/breadwinners according to 2282. Usually/mostly they are males but can be female too if the females are the RIJAAL.

nimnimak_11

Now i get you

You won't understand it until you can read the Arabic of that sign. In the first part it talks about witnesses and written contract for "tadaayantum"/you are indebted/you borrow or lend, and for "tijaarat"/trade or transaction. In the second part it talks about witnesses for "BA-YA-AYN".

Can you tell me why you link ajr to finance??

nimnimak_11

According to 2282, a written contract is for something you owe, so it is essential only if ajr (whatever it is) is not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. If ajr (whatever it is) is given on the spot AT THE TIME OF NIKAH then a written contract is not required although it is still preferred.

But if ajr is not financial, why are we linking it to 2282/// ??? ??? ???

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

Check your vision again please. Did I use the word "financial" ANYWHERE in that post?

Ajr is a reward/gift which could be anything of intrinsic value, and is mutually agreed by the two parties. It can include financial gift/reward too.

Whenever AJR is delayed and not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage, then A WRITTEN CONTRACT IS ESSENTIAL. 2282 talks about ANY DEBT "tadaayantum" during any "tijaarat"/transaction/trade. It could be a financial debt or otherwise in a financial or nonfinancial trade/transaction. Whenever you owe anyone ANYTHING OF INTRINSIC VALUE.

truthseeker11

Peace student,

Again I have reservation about "Malaka" .Does it mean Engagement ? Are you sure ?

Ma malakat aymanukum is "what possessed by your oath". What kind of oath is determined by the context. In the context of marriage, it can only be an oath to get married.

nimnimak_11

Peace Nyma,

Check your vision again please. Did I use the word "financial" ANYWHERE in that post?

Ajr is a reward/gift which could be anything of intrinsic value, and is mutually agreed by the two parties. It can include financial gift/reward too.

Whenever AJR is delayed and not given on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage, then A WRITTEN CONTRACT IS ESSENTIAL. 2282 talks about ANY DEBT "tadaayantum" during any "tijaarat"/transaction/trade. It could be a financial debt or otherwise in a financial trade or nonfinancial trade. Whenever you owe anyone ANYTHING OF INTRINSIC VALUE.

Thank you for making it clearer for me.

Am i write in guessing that Ajr has to be physical hence the verse 2237?
Are there any verses that say it has to be something of intrinsic value? In other words something of the attributes which can relate to 2282?

To this point i sincerely appreciate your patience. I feel that we are possibly coming to a mutual understanding hence i ask of you to be patient for A LITTLE longer.

Thanks,
peace

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

We are asked to GIVE THEM THEIR UJOOR wherever it is mentioned in the context of marriage. So it has to be something physical. The only way you can give her HALF as per 2237 also proves it has to be something physical and also something which can be divided in half. How can you reward someone with something that has no intrinsic value to that person?

2282 talks about anything that can be borrowed/lent/owed. When you don't give the ajr to the wife on the spot at the time of nikah, you owe it to her and hence comes under "tadaayantum".

nimnimak_11

Peace Truthseeker

How can you reward someone with something that has no intrinsic value to that person?

The current point i'm trying to make is that

If you offer or want an ajr that HAS intrinsic/financial value then as reason would also agree it is better to write it down so it is protected by law (government) this is typical in all things that have great intrinsic and financial value.

But there are 2 issues to this

what someone interprets as great enough intrinsic or financial value to write down to protect legally
2)wether they even want something like that

It might well be that a couple agree on two branches of rose.

Perhaps the concept of ajr is a completely different concept to a different generation or society. In the past someone may have wanted a valuable ajr to protect themselves. Hence to protect the ajr, it was essential for them to write it down. Today someone might be happy with something that is not valuable. Dosn't the Quran leave this up to them???

peace peace

nsws1988

Peace N,

Thank you for the correction. It has to be two RIJAAL/breadwinners according to 2282. Usually/mostly they are males but can be female too if the females are the RIJAAL.

Peace

Thanks for your explanation.
Rijaal means men. Why do you say that it can mean breadwinner? What has that got to do with being a witness?

Part of 2282 "And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one of the two erreth (through forgetfulness) the one of them will remind"

Why 2 women instead of 1? Because women are forgetful? Aren't men forgetful too?
If there are any gender differences at all, women are supposed to have better long-term memory than men.

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

Perhaps the concept of ajr is a completely different concept to a different generation or society. In the past someone may have wanted a valuable ajr hence to protect it, it was better for them to write it down. Today someone might be happy with something that is not valuable. Dosn't the Quran leave this up to them???

We have to go by what word has been used. The word used is "ajr" which has been used majority of time in the qur'aan for reward on the Last Day. SO IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS VALUABLE TO THE PERSON BEING AWARDED. Do you mean to say that The God will just give a bunch of roses to the believers on the Last Day and then say "aha I have given you the ajr that I promised". So one rose to the peacemaker and double that i.e. two roses for the believer. P

Therefore, ajr in the context of marriage has to be something valuable.

nimnimak_11

peace Truthseeker

The word used is "ajr" which has been used majority of time in the qur'aan for reward on the Last Day. SO IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS VALUABLE TO THE PERSON BEING AWARDED. Do you mean to say that The God will just give a bunch of roses to the believers on the Last Day and then say "aha I have given you the ajr that I promised". So one rose to the peacemaker and double that i.e. two roses for the believer.

;D

With regards to
SO IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING THAT IS VALUABLE TO THE PERSON BEING AWARDED

Can we link a God given Ajr to a human given ajr? What i mean is that in many verses of the Quran, the God given ajr is described (so we know it to be valuable) the human given ajr or the ajr in marriage has not been described and thus left open to us from the looks of things.

Thus if the person who the ajr is being awarded to dosn't want anything valuable and asks for two roses. What then? Has anyone wronged themselves in this case? I see no restrictions nor can i imagine any wrongness in this.

Do you still think Ajr HAS to be valuable?

peace peace

nimnimak_11

By the way i apologise for saying that you said finance

Check your vision again please. Did I use the word "financial" ANYWHERE in that post?

peace

truthseeker11

Peace N,

Rijaal means men. Why do you say that it can mean breadwinner? What has that got to do with being a witness?

What does this mean

2282 .................waistashhidoo shaheedayni min rijalikum................
2282 .................bring two witnesses from among your men............

You are right. In the context of 2282 "rijaal" can only mean "men" because it is contrasted with "imra'at"/woman.

The primary meaning of "rajul" is "one who goes out on foot" and in some signs it is used with this meaning, and in those signs the context refers to the one who goes out on foot to earn livelihood i.e. breadwinner. "Man" is a secondary meaning, because usually men go out on foot to earn livelihood. Sister Samia can better educate you on this.

Part of 2282 "And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one of the two erreth (through forgetfulness) the one of them will remind"

The "through forgetfulness" is in brackets and is not there in Arabic.

Women can err/get confused because of premenstrual syndrome or PMS.

PMS (premenstrual syndrome) often includes both physical and emotional symptoms. Common symptoms are

acne
breast swelling and tenderness
feeling tired
having trouble sleeping
upset stomach, bloating, constipation, or diarrhea
headache or backache
appetite changes or food cravings
joint or muscle pain
trouble concentrating or remembering
tension, irritability, mood swings, or crying spells
anxiety or depression

http//www.womenshealth.gov/FAQ/premenstrual-syndrome.cfm

psychological symptoms of PMS

irritability
nervousness
lack of control
agitation
anger
insomnia
difficulty in concentrating
lethargy
depression
severe fatigue
anxiety
confusion
forgetfulness
decreased self-image
paranoia
emotional hypersensitivity
crying spells
moodiness
sleep disturbances

http//www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/uvahealth/adult_gyneonc/pms.cfm

The second woman witnesses just to remind the first woman in case she errs/gets confused because of PMS etc. So the actual testimony in court is only of one woman. If the first woman does not err then only she testifies and the second one does not testify. So testimony of one woman = one man.

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

By the way i apologise for saying that you said finance

No problem handshake

Can we link a God given Ajr to a human given ajr? What i mean is that in many verses of the Quran, the God given ajr is described (so we know it to be valuable) the human given ajr or the ajr in marriage has not been described and thus left open to us from the looks of things.

So when God gives it has to be valuable but when human gives it does not have to be valuable? In majority of the signs it just says that God will give them the ajr for their deeds and does not describe it. Ajr can only be something of intrinsic value and how much will depend on the deed.

262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; they will have their reward/ajruhum with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.

Where is the description in this sign?

There are many many other signs where AJR is mentioned with no description.

Actually the following signs prove it is valuable because what will be given on the Last Day will be equivalent to something valuable in this life

2262 Those who spend their money/wealth/property in the cause of God, then they do not follow what they have spent with either insult or harm; they will have their reward/ajruhum with their Lord, there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.

2274 Those who spend their money/wealth/property in the night and in the day, secretly and openly, they will have their reward with their Lord, there is no fear over them nor will they grieve.

Here "ajr" is directly equated with money/property/wealth (amwaal), which is something valuable.

Thus if the person who the ajr is being awarded to dosn't want anything valuable and asks for two roses. What then? Has anyone wronged themselves in this case? I see no restrictions nor can i imagine any wrongness in this.

Ajr is mutually agreed upon. So the wife can completely remit/forego it too if she wants.

Do you still think Ajr HAS to be valuable?

Yes, it HAS to be valuable (2262). Then it is up to the wife. It is something valuable which is mutually agreed upon. She can completely forego it too if she wants, in which case the husband doesn't have to give her anything. (424 and 2237)

nimnimak_11

Peace Truthseeker

In majority of the signs it just says that God will give them the ajr for their deeds and does not describe it. Ajr can only be something of intrinsic value and how much will depend on the deed

3136 To these the reward will be forgiveness from their Lord and gardens with rivers flowing underneath, eternally abiding in it. Excellent is the reward of the workers.

Actually the following signs prove it is valuable because what will be given on the Last Day will be equivalent to something valuable in this life

The verses you have quoted though are all God's ajr.

If it is to be called ajr(reward), then logically it must have some good intrinsic value. in 3136 God's ajr is descried as excellent.

But what i question is the level of intrinsic value a human ajr has to have. It must have intrinsic value but how valuable?? As valuable as a box of choclates where surely there is no need to write anything down in this case as the intrisic value is not that great.

Could this mean that ajr could be either one sum or something that you just give like gifts throughout a relationship?

You don't have to be married to give Ajr right? So it is possible that you may be giving ajr to someone whom you have not yet married. But once the proposal is in place (provided your intentions are pure) and it becomes official (not secret) then your married and in the light of the Quran it is acceptable to have sex angel

Ajr is mutually agreed upon. So the wife can completely remit/forego it too if she wants.

So you can be married without ajr if your partner is ok wihout an ajr

Now i conclude the minimum steps requiered to get married are

Propose (with pure intentions)
Make it known
Decide on ajr

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnd your married!!!!

Deciding on ajr in today's society however is different to the past. In the past women may have wanted an ajr agreed to before marriage. But today in the west, no one as far as i know asks for ajr thus automatically forgoing.

I think ajr in a relationship can be accepted as simple gifts like flowers as they do have intrinsic value. More serious marriages could have very valuable objects such as house deeds in which case there is a written contract.

Now am i write in saying that it is possible to get married without

A written marriage contract
A written Ajr contract

Provided other minimum criteria are met

I give you and others my thanks for all that i have learnt in this thread. I can safely discuss this with others using BETTER quranic evidence.

peace peace

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

If it is to be called ajr(reward), then logically it must have some good intrinsic value. in 3136 God's ajr is descried as excellent.

Agreed

But what i question is the level of intrinsic value a human ajr has to have. It must have intrinsic value but how valuable?? As valuable as a box of choclates where surely there is no need to write anything down in this case as the intrisic value is not that great.

The level of intrinsic value does not matter as long as it is of intrinsic value to the wife and she agrees to it. No matter what the intrinsic value, if it is given on the spot at time of nikah/marriage then no written contract required but if it is delayed then written contract necessary.

Could this mean that ajr could be either one sum or something that you just give like gifts throughout a relationship?

It can be a lump sum or given over or after a fixed period of time after nikah/marriage but it is not ongoing throughout a marriage. What is ongoing throughout the marriage is the obligation of the husband to support the wife by spending from his wealth/money/property (434) which is in addition to AJR.

In 3350 we hear about the prophet having already paid the ujoor of his wives, so it cannot be an ongoing thing throughout marriage.

You don't have to be married to give Ajr right? So it is possible that you may be giving ajr to someone whom you have not yet married. But once the proposal is in place (provided your intentions are pure) and it becomes official (not secret) then your married and in the light of the Quran it is acceptable to have sex

That is incorrect. In the qur'aan, we are commanded to give AJR only after nikah/marriage, so you have to be married to give AJR to your wife. The proposal has to be accompanied or followed by an oath in front of The God and just "will you marry me" is not sufficient. It could be something like "I take an oath before The God that I will marry you". I now think that this oath should also have two witnesses because it is also a form of BA-YA-AYN. The initial proposal (khitbaat al-nisaa 2235) can be public or secret but the oath of engagement (ma malakat aymanukum) should be public in front of at least two witnesses.

You are also forgetting permission of the guardian/family in case of FATAYAAT/guardian/family protected young women (425). Once the engaged couple take an oath of nikah/marriage in front of at least two witnesses and sign a written marriage contract, and the husband takes an oath to fulfil his marital responsibilities (strong covenant/promise 421), and gets the permission of her guardian/family if she is dependent on them before marriage, then they are married and can have sex.

After marriage the husband is obligated to give the ajr, unless the wife forgoes, and to spend on her from his wealth/property. Such a marriage can be terminated only by two divorces and after waiting for the prescribed interim of 3 menstruations after each divorce. In case of separation there is an additional wait for four full-moons before the first divorce.

Now i conclude the minimum steps requiered to get married are

Propose (with pure intentions)
Make it known
Decide on ajr

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnd your married!!!!

Not so fast. Along with proposal the man also has to take an oath before The God to get married to her. Permission from her guardian/family is also required if she is guardian/family dependent. A written marriage contract is required too. The value of ajr can be decided after nikah/marriage (2236-7).

Deciding on ajr in today's society however is different to the past. In the past women may have wanted an ajr agreed to before marriage. But today in the west, no one as far as i know asks for ajr thus automatically forgoing.

Today in the west no one asks for ajr BECAUSE THE WOMEN ARE NOT AWARE THAT THEY HAVE THIS RIGHT AFTER MARRIAGE. If they don't ask because they are not made aware of this right then IT IS NOT AUTOMATICALLY FOREGOING.

IMO if the women knew about this right of ajr, an overwhelming majority will ask for it after marriage, and very few will forego it.

I think ajr in a relationship can be accepted as simple gifts like flowers as they do have intrinsic value. More serious marriages could have very valuable objects such as house deeds in which case there is a written contract.

A written contract is required no matter what the intrinsic value is, if the ajr is delayed after marriage.

Now am i write in saying that it is possible to get married without

A written marriage contract
A written Ajr contract

Provided other minimum criteria are met

A written ajr contract is not required if the ajr is given at the time of nikah but is required if its payment is delayed. The marriage contract/knot mentioned in 2237 is compulsory because the phrase "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" can only be referring to the husband. Whether it is written or verbal depends on what this phrase implies. This phrase translates to "the one with/in his hand the marriage contract/knot" which makes me think that it is talking about a written marriage contract because of the wording "with/in his hand". If it had said "the one who entered the marriage contract/knot" then it could have been verbal.

In my understanding, the whole process can have the following steps out of which the bold ones are required for sexual intercourse

Proposal (khitbaat al-nisaa) which can be public or secret (2235).
Oath to get married in front of witnesses (424-25, 2282)
Permission from guardian/family if she is dependent on them (425)
Strong/solemn oath/covenant of marriage in front of witnesses (421, 2282)
Written marriage contract (2237)
Written ajr contract with witnesses (only if ajr not paid at the time of nikah/marriage) (2282)
Payment of AJR in front of witnesses (2282).
Spending from one's wealth on the wife throughout marriage (434).

I give you and others my thanks for all that i have learnt in this thread. I can safely discuss this with others using BETTER quranic evidence.

You are welcome. I thank you also because this discussion has clarified certain things for me too and I also have learnt from it handshake

Peace and regards.

Samia

You wrongly infer from 2282 that it is talking about the marriage/nikah when it mentions a written contract and then you start making silly statements about how marriage can be for a fixed period of time. A written contract is for AJR/reward/gift and not nikah/marriage. According to 2282 we are commanded to have a written document in case of any transaction (tijarat) in which you lend or borrow something (tadaayantum) for a fixed period of time. In other words, we are asked to have a written document in case of ANY kind of DEBT to be paid back over or after a certain time period.

The ajr due after nikah/marriage can be such a kind of debt which the husband owes to the wife after nikah/marriage. It can be either paid in full at the time of nikah/marriage, in which case The God says that there is no blame if we do not record it in writing, or it can be paid later over or after a fixed period of time, in which case a written contract is ESSENTIAL. It still does not say "do not write it if given on the spot". So my understanding is that it is still PREFERABLE to have a written document but it is NOT REQUIRED if ajr is paid on full on the spot at the time of nikah/marriage. The two male witnesses are ALWAYS necessary.

Nikah/marriage itself is a form of Ba-Ya-Ayn (tabaaya3tum) so two male witnesses are ESSENTIAL for nikah/marriage.

In summary

Nikah/marriage performed and ajr paid in full at the time of nikah ------> two male witnesses essential but written contract not necessary but preferable.
Nikah/marriage performed but ajr to be paid over or after a fixed period of time -------> two male witnesses essential + written contract essential.

Salaam Truthseeker1

I do not know if I am misunderstanding this post, because I see contradictions
-You blame your interlocutor for considering that verse 2282 is about marriage, but then you adopt it in your expalnation of the two witnesses.
You also take ajr/rward and gift as synonymes. You do not need witnesses for a gift; as for a reward or an ajr, witnesses are only essential in case it's denied that the ajr has been paid. For marriage, witnesses are not mentioned anywhere, so the mere fact that these people are kown by otheres to be living as husband and wife is enough testimony, and ajr here is not necessarily to be paid at the time of nikah (if there's a point in time for that).
You also equate ajr with dayn /debt . Is there any verse that tells us that this "debt" will be repaid? And you equate it to bay3 Is there anyway this "ajr" might not be justly " weighed and measured" as per 6151, for example a too much ajr being asked for an old ugly wife? Is it a price? In fact it has to do with the wealth of the "buyer" and not the quality of the "goods".
Ajr for marriage is neither trade nor debt. It's a wage. No witnesses for that matter.

Samia

Peace Nyma,

We are asked to GIVE THEM THEIR UJOOR wherever it is mentioned in the context of marriage. So it has to be something physical. The only way you can give her HALF as per 2237 also proves it has to be something physical and also something which can be divided in half. How can you reward someone with something that has no intrinsic value to that person?

2282 talks about anything that can be borrowed/lent/owed. When you don't give the ajr to the wife on the spot at the time of nikah, you owe it to her and hence comes under "tadaayantum".

Salaam Truthseeker1
What's mentioned in 237 is not an ajr, but "fareeda", a pay-off or something like a divorce settlement to be paid in case of divorce. The verse says it would be half as much if the marriage was not yet consumated.

nimnimak_11

Peace truthseeker

First of all
You are welcome. I thank you also because this discussion has clarified certain things for me too and I also have learnt from it
bravo handshake peace

The level of intrinsic value does not matter as long as it is of intrinsic value to the wife and she agrees to it. No matter what the intrinsic value, if it is given on the spot at time of nikah/marriage then no written contract required but if it is delayed then written contract necessary.

Once agreed, if the ajr isn't of great enough intrinsic value in the married people's judgement, then how can it be in anyway related to 2282?
If it was of enough intrinsic value in their sight, then if would fall under tejarat. If the ajr is not of enough value in the couple's judgement, i don't see how it can be related to either the root Ba-Ya-Ayn or tejarat in verse 2282

In 3350 we hear about the prophet having already paid the ujoor of his wives, so it cannot be an ongoing thing throughout marriage.

I will get back to you on the ongoing thing after i look into it properly.

That is incorrect. In the qur'aan, we are commanded to give AJR only after nikah/marriage, so you have to be married to give AJR to your wife

I agree. This dosn't however mean that i am restricted to giving ajr to someone right? I could be giving ajr to someone before i propose to them. Then i propose to them (in the manner which fulfills Quranic criteria) and i continue to give them ajr. Difference is we are now married.

You are also forgetting permission of the guardian/family in case of FATAYAAT/guardian/family protected young women (425).

I havn't forgotten. It's just i'm trying to first understand this on the bases of two free believing individuals.

just "will you marry me" is not sufficient

Why? This proposal is serious. It is an invitation to an important commitment (if you are believers, it is implied that you will take faithfulness and other responsibilities in a relationship seriously) It is the same as
I take an oath before The God that I will marry you
because by proposing you are taking an oath before God as God is witness to everything and encompasses all things.

I now think that this oath should also have two witnesses because it is also a form of BA-YA-AYN

I currently agree.

Today in the west no one asks for ajr BECAUSE THE WOMEN ARE NOT AWARE THAT THEY HAVE THIS RIGHT AFTER MARRIAGE. If they don't ask because they are not made aware of this right then IT IS NOT AUTOMATICALLY FOREGOING.

Makes sense.

A written ajr contract is not required if the ajr is given at the time of nikah but is required if its payment is delayed. The marriage contract/knot mentioned in 2237 is compulsory because the phrase "allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah" can only be referring to the husband. Whether it is written or verbal depends on what this phrase implies. This phrase translates to "the one with/in his hand the marriage contract/knot" which makes me think that it is talking about a written marriage contract because of the wording "with/in his hand". If it had said "the one who entered the marriage contract/knot" then it could have been verbal.

2237 does not imply or say that you HAVE to have a
allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah
. It only says that if one exists then they can forgive.

peace peace