Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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I have put it in three colors
1Red it is the Protasis of the conditional sentence
2Green color is the apodosis of the conditional sentenceBlue color does not seem to be a part this conditional sentence because there is suddenly a change of address from 3rd person singular male to 2nd person plural males
RegardsSalaam Student
There's no address to the third person. Address is usuaully to the second person, male or female, singular, plural or dual.
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Hence the only mohsanaat eligible to become your MMA would be the protected independent single women.
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If a man cannot find such a protected independent single woman who can be possessed by his oath, then he is asked to marry a guardian dependent young woman with her guardian's permission, but first he has to possess her by his oath to get married.
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How does a woman become , "protected independent single woman"?
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So the priority goes to finding an above category, and if somehow you are unable to, only then, one can ask parents of a young maiden for an engagement and marriage. ( (I guess 95% marriages are not happening this way and hence defying the order in 4-25.
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4-25 is also warning about this fatayat nikah , by saying, " This is for those who fear falling in sin ( last resort only) , and preferably you should abstain from doing this , because God knows what is better for you( so according to God, this is not the best course of action for us)
Most of the first timers are going in , only and only for these so called "parents protected young females" , isn't it? ;D
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hmm and marrying her direct is not possible , an engagement oath is a must , so that both of you can explore each others sexual organs. caution, caution, NO fornication please , that is strictly prohibited and is punishable with 100 lashes.
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D personally I would luv this arrangement. Posses a young female with a promise, explore her sexual organs thoroughly, declare her parts undesirable, reverse your oath, move on to the next young female, and of course no fear, as all this is happening with the parents permission. yuck I guess this is the Norm in the western societies these days.
siki
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Peace siki, truthseeker et al,
That's all cool, I'm open to find the non contradicting meaning which is always the best.
The subtle transition from 423 (Forbidden to marry) ?to 424 And almuhsana needs closer scrutiny and will take a look time permitting -- still busy pondering inheritance verses and few other things.
Salaam Eid
You just put your finger on the most important point. Any interpretation of muhsanaat as chaste/free/ dependent/independent...etc will make these categories forbidden; that's why some interpreters came up with "married", but quickly fell in contradiction with the exception ?lla except" that follows it, which makes "some" married women lawful.
To find the correct meaning of muhaanaat, we have to reconsider the address. In my opinion, the address in this verse has changed from the address in the previous verse. The addressee are a special category of people, and this verse and the verses that follow concern this category.
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Exactly!
Salaam Eid
I do not understand this Eactly! Do you mean that these " chaste hallal/permissible ladies"are forbidden as per 424?!
Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste, be strongly fortified, difficult to access, be preserved, be protected (against attack), abstain from what is not lawful nor decorous, preserve or guard a thing in places inaccessible/unapproachable, make or render a thing inaccessible or unapproachable or difficult to access, make/render a thing unattainable by reason of its height, to fortify oneself.
husun n.m. (pl. of husn) 592
hassana vb. (2) pcple. pass. 5914
ahsana vb. (4)
perf. act. 2191, 6612
impf. act. 1248, 2180
impf. pass. 425
pcple. act. 424, 55
pcple. pass. f. 424, 425, 425, 425, 55, 55, 244, 2423
tahassana vb. (5) n.vb. 2433
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 222, 223How about "immune" as a meaning for muhsan? In fact it's more correct than "protected/fortified" since this second meaning is a derivative of the form II
of the verb and means fortified "muhaSSan"5914 They will not fight you (even) together, except in fortified townships, or from behind walls. Strong is their fighting (spirit) amongst themselves thou wouldst think they were united, but their hearts are divided that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom.
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Salaam Eid
You just put your finger on the most important point. Any interpretation of muhsanaat as chaste/free/ dependent/independent...etc will make these categories forbidden; that's why some interpreters came up with "married", but quickly fell in contradiction with the exception ?lla except" that follows it, which makes "some" married women lawful.
For God sake, "There is NO forbidden in this verse any where"
Forbiden word is there in 4-22, and again forbidden word is there in 4-23, seeing this precedence it had to be in the 4-24 , for mohsinnats?
But it is not .
This is precisely what everybody is taking for granted NOT realizing that it is causing 100% contradiction right in the next verse, 4-25
siki
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For God sake, "There is NO forbidden in this verse any where"
Forbiden word is there in 4-22, and again forbidden word is there in 4-23, seeing this precedence it had to be in the 4-24 , for mohsinnats?
But it is not .
siki
What's the function of the conjugating article "wau" in the beginning of the verse? What about these "muhsanaat" in this context?
Moreover, verse numbering is not part of the revelation. -
Ermmm thanks for the advice! LOL
I wasn't questioning God's words but rather the practical implications ie why would they need to see each other naked.
It is best to keep the translation as 'right hands possess' as people have different views on what it means. I'm still new to all this so I haven't yet studied the Quran, but I respect your opinion.
SalamI still believe MMA is the Katb al Kitab. That is where you make on oath of marriage and everything but the ceremony did not take place. Its an oath(vows) and its considered a legal marraige although usually a house is need for the marraige to be made official.
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I still believe MMA is the Katb al Kitab. That is where you make on oath of marriage and everything but the ceremony did not take place. Its an oath(vows) and its considered a legal marraige although usually a house is need for the marraige to be made official.
Do you mean that th only difference between MMA and a zawj is a house?
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Salaam Student
There's no address to the third person. Address is usuaully to the second person, male or female, singular, plural or dual.
Salaam Samia
I will appreciate if you could throw some light on this verbWhat is the "person" of this verb?
Regards -
Dear Samia
I am talking about this verb
Is this not third person singular masculine imperative ?
RegardsYes it is.
I just realized that you are referring to my post, sorry.
This person is not being addressed, and so there is no sudden change of address. Look at the beginning of the verse the address to the 2nd person plural masculine did not change. -
Yes it is.
I just realized that you are referring to my post, sorry.
This person is not being addressed, and so there is no sudden change of address. Look at the beginning of the verse the address to the 2nd person plural masculine did not change.Dear Samia
Thanks you accepted it
Now look at this sentenceIt is a conditional sentence in which 3rd person masculine singular is the addressee (he is being talked about and he is being "COMMANDED).
In the second partNow here nature of address regarding number and person is changed. TS was thinking that it is part of apodosis of the first part ,but my opinion based on the logic which I have just mentioned was different.
Regards
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Peace all,
I guess the 'mohasanat' are women LOCKED by a dowry. Mohasanat are divided into 'Mohasanat from the women' which is forbidden to marry because they are married to believers and 'the believing Mohasanat' which are women who were married to disbelieving men but left them(during peace or war) due to their belief. Now, what your right hand possess will include believing free woman 'fatayat mominat' and believing married women 'mohasanat mominat'. Who is harder to marry?? The believing married women because you will have to return the dowry to their husbands and so we understand the following verse.
425 If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for married women. This is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
Peace,
Rami
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If 'moahasant' mean married. How does is affect our understanding of the very controversial verse of prostitution.
2433 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),
Any ideas?
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For God sake, "There is NO forbidden in this verse any where"
Forbiden word is there in 4-22, and again forbidden word is there in 4-23, seeing this precedence it had to be in the 4-24 , for mohsinnats?
But it is not .
But isn't "wal muhsanaatu minan nisa" a continuation of the forbidden categories from the previous verse? Please tell me more. Thanks.
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Dear Samia
Thanks you accepted it
Now look at this sentenceIt is a conditional sentence in which 3rd person masculine singular is the addressee (he is being talked about and he is being "COMMANDED).
Salaam Student!
He cannot be "talked about" and be the "addressee" at the same time. You are confusing between a command to the third person and an address (which cannot be to a third person). This is clear from this translationO YOU who have attained to faith! Whenever you give or take credit for a stated term, set it down in writing. And let a scribe write it down equitably between you; and no scribe shall refuse to write as God has taught him thus shall he write. And let him who contracts the debt dictate; and let him be conscious of God, his Sustainer, and not weaken anything of his undertaking. And if he who contracts the debt is weak of mind or body, or, is not able to dictate himself, then let him who watches over his interests dictate equitably
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Salaam Student!
He cannot be "talked about" and be the "addressee" at the same time. You are confusing between a command to the third person and an address (which cannot be to a third person). This is clear from this translationO YOU who have attained to faith! Whenever you give or take credit for a stated term, set it down in writing. And let a scribe write it down equitably between you; and no scribe shall refuse to write as God has taught him thus shall he write. And let him who contracts the debt dictate; and let him be conscious of God, his Sustainer, and not weaken anything of his undertaking. And if he who contracts the debt is weak of mind or body, or, is not able to dictate himself, then let him who watches over his interests dictate equitably
Dear sister
Commandment cannot be without address.Even then if you think so I cannot say any thing more than this.
Regards -
Salaam Samia,
You just put your finger on the most important point. Any interpretation of muhsanaat as chaste/free/ dependent/independent...etc will make these categories forbidden; that's why some interpreters came up with "married", but quickly fell in contradiction with the exception ?lla except" that follows it, which makes "some" married women lawful.
To find the correct meaning of muhaanaat, we have to reconsider the address. In my opinion, the address in this verse has changed from the address in the previous verse. The addressee are a special category of people, and this verse and the verses that follow concern this category.
I believe the address is universal as with food.
55 Today is permitted for you the goodness?s, and those who were given The Book's food is permitted for you, and your food is permitted for them, and from the believers, and from those who were given The Book from before you...
Special category is ma malakat aymanukum; not equal (302, half (425) the punishment.
Peace siki,
For God sake, "There is NO forbidden in this verse any where"
Forbiden word is there in 4-22, and again forbidden word is there in 4-23, seeing this precedence it had to be in the 4-24 , for mohsinnats?
But it is not .
This is precisely what everybody is taking for granted NOT realizing that it is causing 100% contradiction right in the next verse, 4-25
From context...
423 (forbidden are?)
424 And from the women except ma malakat aymanukum, God?s decree on you, and is permitted for you, what (is) behind that...425 And who is not able, from you capability that he marries , the believing, so from ma malakat aymanukum from your youths (girls) the believers...
Married no mention in 423 "and" they are in 424; only permissible married are those of the mma category.
No contradiction with 425, about character general address not marital status.
Salaam Samia,
I do not understand this Eactly! Do you mean that these " chaste hallal/permissible ladies"are forbidden as per 424?!
How about "immune" as a meaning for muhsan? In fact it's more correct than "protected/fortified" since this second meaning is a derivative of the form II
of the verb and means fortified "muhaSSan"5914 They will not fight you (even) together, except in fortified townships, or from behind walls. Strong is their fighting (spirit) amongst themselves thou wouldst think they were united, but their hearts are divided that is because they are a people devoid of wisdom.
By exactly, Victorian Etiquette comes to mind as in "the honorable lady Samia" or as in writing the formal Dear Madam which can refer to married or single chaste/good as Qur'an calls them in context?
2423-26 That truly those who blame and accuse ?
The wicked (F) to the wicked (M), and the wicked (M) to the wicked (F), and the good (F) to good (M), and the good (M) to the good (F), those are being made innocent from what they are saying, for them forgiveness and kind (reimbursement).