Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Thelps and company!
) So you guys think that quran is full of instructions regarding gender neutral, and hardly any for normal people?
Salaam siki
I do not understand what you mean by "gender neutral". If they are a sub category of those unable to have sex for a reason or another, then I would not say that the qur?an is "full"of instructions regarding them, but is not ignoring them when there's a relevant context, in this case marriage. Otherwise, they are the same as the whole community.
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Peace Samia,
Please correct any mistakes you may find in my post above Thanks in advance.Salaam Tlepsh, all
you put it in a neat and precise way. I hope others, before attacking, would try to find any contradiction between this understanding and the other contexts/instances where these words (muhsan/MMA) are mentioned. So far, a lot of contradiction in these meanings
MMA slaves; captives; fiancees; being only females
Muhsans married; unmarried; chaste; free; only females -
peace,
Brother salam
Your recommended book contains a paragraph saying , "That quranic layal starts at last light, not at sun set" declaring, "practice of breaking fast at sun set wrong" .
Have you changed your understanding?peace
When a person links to a book/reference/website it does not mean they agree with everything in it, unless the person specifically says they do. Thus, the only question you need to ask is, did I say I agree with everything in it?
Like the free-minds translation, I am sure TNR has many mistakes.
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peace,
When a person links to a book/reference/website it does not mean they agree with everything in it, unless the person specifically says they do. Thus, the only question you need to ask is, did I say I agree with everything in it?
Like the free-minds translation, I am sure TNR has many mistakes.
) Exactly, hmm I thought so, yes same here.
siki
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Peace,
Nisa 23-24-25
Prohibited to you (for marriage) are
? your mothers,
? daughters,
? sisters;
? father's sisters,
? mother's sisters;
? brother's daughters,
? sister's daughters;
? foster mothers (who gave you suck),
? foster sisters;
? your wives' mothers;
? your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you
? the wives of your sons that are from your seed;
? that you join between two sisters except what has already been done
for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful;and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking
? with your money
? if you are immune (muhsan)
? not for illicit sex.
As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.Also women who are immune (muhsanat) are prohibited for you, except those whom your oaths possess (except those who agree voluntarily) if Allah has written on you so.
If any of you have not the physical ability to marry immune women, they may marry believing girls from among those whom your oaths possess(among from those who agree voluntarily) and Allah has full knowledge about your Faith. You are one from another You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their wage in kindness; They shall be
? immune (able to have sex),
? not wanting illicit sex
? not taking lovers.
If they become immune (wanting to have sex), then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is for the (normal) immune women of the retribution. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.The sentence order is flipped, should be
Nisa 23-24-25
Prohibited to you (for marriage) are
...? that you join between two sisters except what has already been done
for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful;Also women who are immune (muhsanat) are prohibited for you, except those whom your oaths possess (except those who agree voluntarily) if Allah has written on you so.
and permitted for you is what is beyond this...
- if address above in context is ONLY to those men NOT able to have sex; where is the guidance for normal people?
55 Today is permitted for you the goodness?s, and those who were given The Book's food is permitted for you, and your food is permitted for them, and from the believers, and from those who were given The Book from before you...
- are women (or men) who are NOT able to have sex permitted?
Salaam Samia,
you put it in a neat and precise way. I hope others, before attacking, would try to find any contradiction between this understanding and the other contexts/instances where these words (muhsan/MMA) are mentioned. So far, a lot of contradiction in these meanings
MMA slaves; captives; fiancees; being only females
Muhsans married; unmarried; chaste; free; only femalesChaste (married/single), MMA prior slaves, captives, free a neck, etc., where is the contradiction?
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Peace,
Salaam Samia
Chaste (married/single), MMA prior slaves, captives, free a neck, etc., where is the contradiction?
Salaam Eid
Chaste How do you define a chaste woman? All women are chaste unless you have 4 witnesses. After being punished, she can still return to the pool of chaste women.
Muhsanat = chaste and forbidden to you the chaste except MMA (therefore muhsanat are forbidden; contradicting verse 505)
Muhsanat= married and forbidden to you the married except MMA (MMA are married but are lawful. Verse 4 25 asks to seek the permission of the family. Husband included? MMA = married contradicts verse 2432.) They are not the believing women spoken about in verse 6010 either, they were not even described as muhsanat.
muhsanat= single and forbidden are the single , contradicting verse 2432
MMA= prior slaves what's a prior slave? Are they slaves or not?
MMA= captives How can you seek permission of the family of a captive as per verse 425? Same for slaves.
Plus, take into consideration that all these meanings apply to males too. -
I am a bit lost in this debate.
Now, if I understand muhsanat as females avowedly voluntarily refraining from sex or courtship, what I would understand from 4.23-24 is that you cannot court or offer yourself to all those women listed in aya 23 and 24, except mma, which I undderstand are those women which are already your spouses, and therefore you can offer yourself to them, obviously, or rather, reoffer. Now in order to court those you may court it says the way you should do it. Understood like that, the ayas to me make sense. I do not know whether they would clash with other ayas.
Can anyone tell me if they find anything wrong with this understanding?
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Yes, Samia, that is a way I can understand it. Somehow I am not very convinced by the Musanat = married women. However, I can easily see that mma could be = wife. (think in English "what is rightly yours", in spanish "la leg?tima" meaning the wife (legal and factual). But I would like to check whether there are not some other ayas in the Quran the contradict this understanding.
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Yes, Samia, that is a way I can understand it. Somehow I am not very convinced by the Musanat = married women. However, I can easily see that mma could be = wife. (think in English "what is rightly yours", in spanish "la leg?tima" meaning the wife (legal and factual). But I would like to check whether there are not some other ayas in the Quran the contradict this understanding.
Of course MMA is a wife or a husband, but in a special bond/marriage in which at least one of the couples is unable to have sex. They are both MMA of each other/zawj of each other..This is why if the one of them (not the one unable to have sex) committed adultry they will have half the punishment.
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Salaam,
Chaste How do you define a chaste woman? All women are chaste unless you have 4 witnesses. After being punished, she can still return to the pool of chaste women.
Muhsanat = chaste and forbidden to you the chaste except MMA (therefore muhsanat are forbidden; contradicting verse 505)
Muhsanat= married and forbidden to you the married except MMA (MMA are married but are lawful. Verse 4 25 asks to seek the permission of the family. Husband included? MMA = married contradicts verse 2432.) They are not the believing women spoken about in verse 6010 either, they were not even described as muhsanat.
muhsanat= single and forbidden are the single , contradicting verse 2432If they are punished they are labeled 243 Alzzanee la yankihu illa zaniyatan
Muhsanat chaste (either married/single) that was my whole point marital status neutral.
Forbidden sexually are married muhsanat exception of MMA category; no contradictions and they are believers.
425 ...so from MMA from your youths (girls) the believers (F)
MMA= prior slaves what's a prior slave? Are they slaves or not?
MMA= captives How can you seek permission of the family of a captive as per verse 425? Same for slaves.
Plus, take into consideration that all these meanings apply to males too.Yes, they were captives, runaways, perhaps prior slaves before Qur'an (feed the poor or free a neck). To be treated with kindness 436; needed permission to marry from their person in charge 2433 not equal 1671
3028 ...are for you from MMA from partners in what We provided for you? So you are (all) in it equal?
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=52497
Browse WordObviously read context for appropriate usage applicable to which gender.
Of course MMA is a wife or a husband, but in a special bond/marriage in which at least one of the couples is unable to have sex. They are both MMA of each other/zawj of each other..This is why if the one of them (not the one unable to have sex) committed adultry they will have half the punishment.
Thus according to earlier interpretation which you agreed with
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Muhsanat are sexual women prohibited from men who cannot have sex
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MMA are sexual women who agree to marry those men
Nisa 23-24-25
Prohibited to you (for marriage) are
...? that you join between two sisters except what has already been done
for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful;Also women who are immune (muhsanat) are prohibited for you, except those whom your oaths possess (except those who agree voluntarily) if Allah has written on you so.
Question
Address in context is ONLY to men not able to have sex; where is the guidance for normal people?
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Salaam,
If they are punished they are labeled 243 Alzzanee la yankihu illa zaniyatan
Muhsanat chaste (either married/single) that was my whole point marital status neutral.
Forbidden sexually are married muhsanat exception of MMA category; no contradictions and they are believers.
425 ...so from MMA from your youths (girls) the believers (F)
Yes, they were captives, runaways, perhaps prior slaves before Qur'an (feed the poor or free a neck). To be treated with kindness 436; needed permission to marry from their person in charge 2433 not equal 1671
3028 ...are for you from MMA from partners in what We provided for you? So you are (all) in it equal?
http//www.openburhan.net/ob_w.php?w=52497
Browse WordObviously read context for appropriate usage applicable to which gender.
Thus according to earlier interpretation which you agreed with
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Muhsanat are sexual women prohibited from men who cannot have sex
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MMA are sexual women who agree to marry those men
Question
Address in context is ONLY to men not able to have sex; where is the guidance for normal people?
Dear Eid
You saidIf they are punished they are labeled 243 Alzzanee la yankihu illa zaniyatan
This is not true.Quran has used these words before punishment is executed.
Once those are proved Zaani and Zaaniya ,then punished is applied. It is not other way round.Secondly ,would you label "redlight area " community as "Chaste" ?
Regards -
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Salaam Q_student,
You said
This is not true.Quran has used these words before punishment is executed.
Once those are proved Zaani and Zaaniya ,then punished is applied. It is not other way round.Secondly ,would you label "redlight area " community as "Chaste" ?
RegardsThanks I missed that and we are told to avoid such places.
Nor would consider them and their patrons marriageable except between themselves.
Regards,
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I will try to summarize my understanding again in a better way. No offence taken.
waiting.
siki
Ok, here it is...
IMHO
The topic of "marriage"
Allah commands(in 2/282) that transactions be written down and witnessed, *unless it is a tijaaratun haaziratun, where the wage has been given on the spot.
** There is no punishment for not following these orders.
Keeping that in mind...
4/25 mentions a transaction between a man and a woman. In case the wage is not paid on the spot, it should be written down and witnessed. If the wage was paid on the spot, i.e. it was a tijaaratun haaziratun, and writing down, or even witnessing, is not required. They are now zawj of each other, or "husband" and "wife".
Therefore if a man and a woman want to have such a tijaaratun haziratun between themselves, in which no writing or witnessing is required, they are not to be blamed. If it was not tijaaratun haaziratun, but they still did not have the transaction written down and witnessed, they still cannot be punished*.
Going by this understanding, no one can be logically be accused of pre-marital sex.
Sex between a man and a woman is punishable only when the woman had already been secured by another man. Let us understand that
Al-muhsanaat is a category of women which means secured, reserved, immune, fortified/impenetrable, inaccessible etc.
Acc. to 4/24, al-muhsanaat are forbidden for marriage except ONLY if they are from the "MMA" category. This verse has laid down the rule for the rest of the Quran.
***So wherever the Quran talks about marrying al-muhsanaat, they have to be from the MMA.
How does a woman become al-muhsana?
4/25 says if you cannot "marry" or do nikah with ***al-muhsanaat al-mominaat(who will be from the "MMA" of course, 4/24), so anyone from the "MMA" from your fatayaat al-mominaat. This makes al-muhsanaat and fatayaat two distinct categories of women.
Afterwards it says to do nikah with the fatayat(who are NOT al-muhsanaat ). But then it goes on to say "fa iza uhsinna(the same root as al-muhsanaat)/so when they have become secured/immune/fortified", which tells that NOW they have become al-muhsanaat, i.e. AFTER NIKAH.
We understand from this that
These women were referred to as fatayaat BEFORE NIKAH.
AFTER NIKAH, they became secured/reserved/immune/fortified/("fa iz uhsina". AFTER NIKAH they are al-muhsanaat.
****THEREFORE, a woman becomes al-muhsana after nikah.
(Btw, if we take it to mean chaste, then are fatayaat unchaste? Are chaste women forbidden for marriage(4/24)? That wouldn't make sense.)
Now who are those married women who are allowed for the momineen, we'll see later on,...
...First let us come to the topic of az-zina.
If we pay close attention to the context of 24/2(the verse ordaining punishment for the az-zina), we realize that for az-zina to occur, az-zaani can be any man, "married" or not, but az-zaaniya must be a "married" woman
Verse 24/4 talks about those who accuse ****al-muhsanaat of committing az-zina
24/4 And those who accuse al-muhsanaat, then do not bring four witnesses, therefore you shall lash them eighty lashes,....
Then again, in 24/6 it talks about husbands accusing their wives(i.e. women "married" to them)
24/6 And those who accuse their azwaaj, and have no witnesses for them except themselves,....
Both verses are about the accusation of women, and more importantly married women, and not about men. Why not about men? Because the man's role was secondary; the act could not have been az-zina, had the woman not been "married". Az-zina, therefore, is a polyandrous act.
I think this is why verse 24/2 mentions the zaainya first and the zaani second, as it could not have been az-zina without the polyandrous woman. Everywhere else that I can remember, the man is always mentioned first, and the woman second.
Even in the story of Yusuf, the woman who tried to force herself on him was married. Az-zina therefore, being a polyandrous act, betrays the trust of the husband, which of course she was unsucessful at(12/52, "...I have not akhnu-hu/betrayed him in the absence", she said referring to her husband). An unmarried woman has no husband to betray, hence she cannot be accused of az-zina. The Quran could have given the example of an unmarried women, which would have proven that "pre-marital sex" is also forbidden, but it did not.
Therefore the punishment of az-zina is neither for "pre-marital" sex nor for public sex(as we will see below), but only for the act of committing and assisting polyandry, i.e. for the woman betraying her husband, and for the man "accessing" the woman reserved for her husband.
Now coming to the topic that az-zina is pornography/public sex
Verse 24/4 is used to justify the understanding of az-zina as pornography/public sex. It is claimed that it requires four eye witnesses to occur.
That is incorrect. Four witnesses are necessary only when the accuser is someone other than the husband(24/4). When the husband accuses the wife, the other witnesses are not required(24/6). Then is is up to the wife to accept or reject the accusation of zina even without any other witnesses. Which disproves az-zina=public sex or that it requires eye witnesses to occur.
Coming back to the topic of marrying an already married woman, 60/10 tells us who those married women are(and so al-muhsanaat being married women does not contradict any part of the Quran)
The migrated al-mominaat who have come to the momineen, are not lawful for the kuffar anymore and vice versa. To keep these women, the momineen only have to pay the kuffar whatever they had spent on these women. If a momin man then intends to marry any of these women, the waiting and divorce are not required
60/10 ...There is no blame upon you if you marry them when you have given them their wages...
The 'al-mominaatu muhaajiraat' among these who were already married are *al-muhsanaat, and they are lawful for the momineen. This is the condition under which a momin can marry an already married woman. And since al-muhsanaat are allowed to be married only from the "MMA", this verse is about the MMA.
If anyone has any disagreements with anything in this post, please bring evidence form the Quran.
- A transaction needs to be written and witnessed only when it is not a tijaaratun haaziratun.
** There is no punishment for not writing and witnessing it.
*** Wherever the Quran talks about marrying al-muhsanaat, they have to be from the MMA.
**** A woman becomes al-muhsana after nikah.
- A transaction needs to be written and witnessed only when it is not a tijaaratun haaziratun.
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Forbidden sexually are married muhsanat exception of MMA category; no contradictions and they are believers.
425 ...so from MMA from your youths (girls) the believers (F)
Dear Eid,
My experience is , that The NISSA at this forum would grab any weird logic/understanding , but the appropriate. (right hand possession)
We are in total harmony on this issue ,except the above quote.
Where is this married word? This is the mistake which every translator has made,because it contradicts with all other usages of Mohsinnte in Quran .This was precisely the point which caught my attention some years ago, and I decided to work upon improving/resolving the issue.
No written document in any language can allocate a certain meaning to a word , and then , mean to convey only a sub set meaning at a specific place leaving it to the imagination of the reader, and we expect Quran to do so? (
(a) See 4-25 , It mentions Mohsinnate ul Mominnate, Meaning a specific subset, which is believing.
(b)Again in 4-25 , a specific sub set is being mentioned, which is a MMA who is believing, and young.You see, in 4-25, the words have been added along "Mohsinnate" for specifing a sub category. So how can some one imagine that Quran would not do that if it meant to covey the Married mohsinnte in 4-24? elektro This is the most ridiculas assumption that translators make and people go on accepting it. brickwall
Moreover, that also means , that MMA are not all "only the believing kind", that is why God had to specifically mention , and your understanding , as quoted above is wrong.
You are the only one who seems to grasp the issue, I am sure there are others, but have chosen to keep quite, I need to move forward to sort out /answer many important relevant questions and I would require your help in doing that, but we are being bogged down by rejectors on non issues.
peace
siki
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Yes, Samia, that is a way I can understand it. Somehow I am not very convinced by the Musanat = married women. However, I can easily see that mma could be = wife. (think in English "what is rightly yours", in spanish "la leg?tima" meaning the wife (legal and factual). But I would like to check whether there are not some other ayas in the Quran the contradict this understanding.
Yes , that contradicts here in 33-52.
It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses and Allah is Watchful over all things.
If the subject is wives , and MMA are wives , then it would make last part of the aya redundent. The aya meant to convey, NO more wife taking , no matter how much you like someone, however you can do that from among what your right hand possess.peace
siki
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waiting.
siki
Ok, here it is...
IMHO
The topic of "marriage"
Allah commands(in 2/282) that transactions be written down and witnessed, *unless it is a tijaaratun haaziratun, where the wage has been given on the spot.
** There is no punishment for not following these orders.
Keeping that in mind...
4/25 mentions a transaction between a man and a woman. In case the wage is not paid on the spot, it should be written down and witnessed. If the wage was paid on the spot, i.e. it was a tijaaratun haaziratun, and writing down, or even witnessing, is not required. They are now zawj of each other, or "husband" and "wife".
Therefore if a man and a woman want to have such a tijaaratun haziratun between themselves, in which no writing or witnessing is required, they are not to be blamed. If it was not tijaaratun haaziratun, but they still did not have the transaction written down and witnessed, they still cannot be punished*.
Going by this understanding, no one can be logically be accused of pre-marital sex.
To start with,
Going by this logic , if there is a child, and if the man wants/wanted , he can/could runway from the responsibility of fatherhood or supporting, leaving the two, all alone in this cruel world. Now you would come up with DNA genetic testing for paternity, but that is recent phenomena.
siki
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peace
This is going to be my 1000th post , yay and I am likely to be earning the 4th and final star. I thank HIM for choosing me to help his creation by improving understanding of his last and final scripture.
Keeping him as witness, I declare that to the best of my ability, I kept logic paramount and never let my ego or personal likes/dislikes come in the way of my understandings, which could have mislead others.
hail I pray, HE gives me time/interest/courage/wisdom and energy to go on doing this Divine duty.
And by doing this, I wish that my knowledge of his system develops to a stage , where I make my self worthy of his selection, and (just like so many others on this forum) go on being his servant in the next life.
God Bless you all handshake
siki
