Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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You ask too many questions brother, sometimes people don't have any answer so you need to be patient with them and give them some more time. Discussion is going very well MashaAllah, we have many answers so far, and will have even more just give everyone some time to think.
Thanks
Salaam
No problem ,go ahead without establishing Quranic meanings of MMA.
Regards -
Salaam
No problem ,go ahead without establishing Quranic meanings of MMA.
RegardsBrother I am sure you must be carrying out salat regularly. So have you established the Koranic procedure of your salat? If not, then why are you carrying it out that way.
please ponder over what Rasulhamsa said.
regards
siki -
Brother I am sure you must be carrying out salat regularly. So have you established the Koranic procedure of your salat? If not, then why are you carrying it out that way.
please ponder over what Rasulhamsa said.
regards
sikiSalaam Brother
I am still confused about timings of salaat and its exact method.This thread has nothing to do with it.
Still my Question is
What is the Quranic meaning of MMA ?
Otherwise accept that you are using "Hadithi" meanings and go ahead.
Regards -
Salaam Brother
I am still confused about timings of salaat and its exact method.This thread has nothing to do with it.
Still my Question is
What is the Quranic meaning of MMA ?
Otherwise accept that you are using "Hadithi" meanings and go ahead.
Regardsso is that quran which tells you that there should be a method of salaat or you are just try to find a method using "hadithi" meanings of salaat?
Thanks
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so is that quran which tells you that there should be a method of salaat or you are just try to find a method using "hadithi" meanings of salaat?
Thanks
Salaam
I am not obsessed by
1Hadiths
2Code 19
3Inscriptions
Alhamdulillahi ,I am a Quran student. If you can provide some information I will appreciate.Note I think because you have no Quranic meanings of MMA ,go ahead with the concept ,the thread should not be derailed.
Regards -
Salaam
I am not obsessed by
1Hadiths
2Code 19
3Inscriptions
Alhamdulillahi ,I am a Quran student. If you can provide some information I will appreciate.Note I think because you have no Quranic meanings of MMA ,go ahead with the concept ,the thread should not be derailed.
RegardsI have no definite idea about MMA yet, if you have any please share your understanding with us.
Thanks
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I believe this issue is covered in 'The Natural Republic' book
http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/TNR.pdfMy copy is the 2004 edition, not the updated one.
Brother salam
Your recommended book contains a paragraph saying , "That quranic layal starts at last light, not at sun set" declaring, "practice of breaking fast at sun set wrong" .
Have you changed your understanding?peace
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So what is opposite of Mohasana?
A 'Baghyia' or a prostitute?
So what is a 'Zanyia' -adulteress- then?
And what is a 'Fata' and why is they are sometimes used as the opposite group to 'Mohasanat'?
Can be 'fatayat' be prostitutes?!!
My mind is spinning!
Bigha means, wrong, Any wrong that one commits, the context would decide what it actually means at a certain place,
Bigha in sexual context, would mean, sexual wrongs, like fornication, adultery etc. Calling some one Baghia when the subject is her sexuality, would convey a meaning opposite to Mohsinna.
Bigha, in sexual context, to gain worldly means , would lock the meaning specific as "prostitution".
Zania , is most probably , A fahisha woman , confirmed by 4 witnesses, and hence Declared as Zania.
Adulterous, English meaning, "a woman who gets involved in extramarital sexual adventures", we do not have an Arabic equivalent in quran.
Fata, means young, 12-36 uses Fatayan , meaning two young men.
Fatayat means , "young females" nothing more, nothing less, and they are a sub set of Nissa. She could be a mohsinna or may be not, she could be a believing Mohsinna , or may be not, you could find her in every MMA sub categories. I fail to understand as to what is so difficult about it?
It is not being used as an opposite to mohsinnats, but being recommended as a specific alternate. lets see if God would not have used this word in 4-25,
We would have picked up any Mohsinna from MMA , Not necessarily a young and a believing one.Your last inquiry, weather a fatyat can be a prostitute?
Why not she can be , any woman can be a prostitute, this is her choice, but 4-25 , specifically talks about the young ones under your guardian ship, that you should not do that for worldly gains. And if they are forced against their will, "God is telling them "Don'T worry babies", I understand your situation. I am forgiving most merciful.siki
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Thelps and company!
) So you guys think that quran is full of instructions regarding gender neutral, and hardly any for normal people?
Salaam siki
I do not understand what you mean by "gender neutral". If they are a sub category of those unable to have sex for a reason or another, then I would not say that the qur?an is "full"of instructions regarding them, but is not ignoring them when there's a relevant context, in this case marriage. Otherwise, they are the same as the whole community.
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Peace Samia,
Please correct any mistakes you may find in my post above Thanks in advance.Salaam Tlepsh, all
you put it in a neat and precise way. I hope others, before attacking, would try to find any contradiction between this understanding and the other contexts/instances where these words (muhsan/MMA) are mentioned. So far, a lot of contradiction in these meanings
MMA slaves; captives; fiancees; being only females
Muhsans married; unmarried; chaste; free; only females -
peace,
Brother salam
Your recommended book contains a paragraph saying , "That quranic layal starts at last light, not at sun set" declaring, "practice of breaking fast at sun set wrong" .
Have you changed your understanding?peace
When a person links to a book/reference/website it does not mean they agree with everything in it, unless the person specifically says they do. Thus, the only question you need to ask is, did I say I agree with everything in it?
Like the free-minds translation, I am sure TNR has many mistakes.
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peace,
When a person links to a book/reference/website it does not mean they agree with everything in it, unless the person specifically says they do. Thus, the only question you need to ask is, did I say I agree with everything in it?
Like the free-minds translation, I am sure TNR has many mistakes.
) Exactly, hmm I thought so, yes same here.
siki
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Peace,
Nisa 23-24-25
Prohibited to you (for marriage) are
? your mothers,
? daughters,
? sisters;
? father's sisters,
? mother's sisters;
? brother's daughters,
? sister's daughters;
? foster mothers (who gave you suck),
? foster sisters;
? your wives' mothers;
? your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you
? the wives of your sons that are from your seed;
? that you join between two sisters except what has already been done
for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful;and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking
? with your money
? if you are immune (muhsan)
? not for illicit sex.
As for those whom you have already had joy with them, then you shall give them their wage as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.Also women who are immune (muhsanat) are prohibited for you, except those whom your oaths possess (except those who agree voluntarily) if Allah has written on you so.
If any of you have not the physical ability to marry immune women, they may marry believing girls from among those whom your oaths possess(among from those who agree voluntarily) and Allah has full knowledge about your Faith. You are one from another You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their wage in kindness; They shall be
? immune (able to have sex),
? not wanting illicit sex
? not taking lovers.
If they become immune (wanting to have sex), then any of them who comes with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is for the (normal) immune women of the retribution. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.The sentence order is flipped, should be
Nisa 23-24-25
Prohibited to you (for marriage) are
...? that you join between two sisters except what has already been done
for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful;Also women who are immune (muhsanat) are prohibited for you, except those whom your oaths possess (except those who agree voluntarily) if Allah has written on you so.
and permitted for you is what is beyond this...
- if address above in context is ONLY to those men NOT able to have sex; where is the guidance for normal people?
55 Today is permitted for you the goodness?s, and those who were given The Book's food is permitted for you, and your food is permitted for them, and from the believers, and from those who were given The Book from before you...
- are women (or men) who are NOT able to have sex permitted?
Salaam Samia,
you put it in a neat and precise way. I hope others, before attacking, would try to find any contradiction between this understanding and the other contexts/instances where these words (muhsan/MMA) are mentioned. So far, a lot of contradiction in these meanings
MMA slaves; captives; fiancees; being only females
Muhsans married; unmarried; chaste; free; only femalesChaste (married/single), MMA prior slaves, captives, free a neck, etc., where is the contradiction?
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Peace,
Salaam Samia
Chaste (married/single), MMA prior slaves, captives, free a neck, etc., where is the contradiction?
Salaam Eid
Chaste How do you define a chaste woman? All women are chaste unless you have 4 witnesses. After being punished, she can still return to the pool of chaste women.
Muhsanat = chaste and forbidden to you the chaste except MMA (therefore muhsanat are forbidden; contradicting verse 505)
Muhsanat= married and forbidden to you the married except MMA (MMA are married but are lawful. Verse 4 25 asks to seek the permission of the family. Husband included? MMA = married contradicts verse 2432.) They are not the believing women spoken about in verse 6010 either, they were not even described as muhsanat.
muhsanat= single and forbidden are the single , contradicting verse 2432
MMA= prior slaves what's a prior slave? Are they slaves or not?
MMA= captives How can you seek permission of the family of a captive as per verse 425? Same for slaves.
Plus, take into consideration that all these meanings apply to males too. -
I am a bit lost in this debate.
Now, if I understand muhsanat as females avowedly voluntarily refraining from sex or courtship, what I would understand from 4.23-24 is that you cannot court or offer yourself to all those women listed in aya 23 and 24, except mma, which I undderstand are those women which are already your spouses, and therefore you can offer yourself to them, obviously, or rather, reoffer. Now in order to court those you may court it says the way you should do it. Understood like that, the ayas to me make sense. I do not know whether they would clash with other ayas.
Can anyone tell me if they find anything wrong with this understanding?
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Yes, Samia, that is a way I can understand it. Somehow I am not very convinced by the Musanat = married women. However, I can easily see that mma could be = wife. (think in English "what is rightly yours", in spanish "la leg?tima" meaning the wife (legal and factual). But I would like to check whether there are not some other ayas in the Quran the contradict this understanding.
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Yes, Samia, that is a way I can understand it. Somehow I am not very convinced by the Musanat = married women. However, I can easily see that mma could be = wife. (think in English "what is rightly yours", in spanish "la leg?tima" meaning the wife (legal and factual). But I would like to check whether there are not some other ayas in the Quran the contradict this understanding.
Of course MMA is a wife or a husband, but in a special bond/marriage in which at least one of the couples is unable to have sex. They are both MMA of each other/zawj of each other..This is why if the one of them (not the one unable to have sex) committed adultry they will have half the punishment.
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