Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Samia and some others
I fail to understand as to why are you not answering the basic contradiction which arises due to your falulty assumption of Mohsinnate as married in 4-24 and prohibited? I have asked/shown you nany a times that it 100%contradicts with what is being commanded in 4-25 and 5-6.
4-25--and if you are not able to marry a believing Mohsinna -- then
5-6--today all Good food---and Hallal for you are believing Mohsinnas as well as Mohsinnas from people of the book--It is like trying to play scrabble when you haven't learnt the ABC yet.
please move forward only when you are able to resolve this basic/major contradiction.
siki
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For all who are posting to resolve this issue
You have to come up with a complete package and show us as to how your understanding of the words (MMA, Mohsinnate) fit in all the relevant verses of Quran , and also discuss as to how/why they make sense.
You can not pick up just a single verse, scribble what you think as how it should be, and vanish.
Pop up again after a few days when the thread has moved forward, and people have forgotten. Write some more nonsense about how you interpret another aya, and go away distracting the sincere learners , who are eagerly waiting for an out come.
And to all those whom I have asked pertinent queries regarding their understandings; please come up with a satisfying answer before indulging into further discussion, and if you have not been able to, it is better to go back to the drawing board, rather than singing the same old song.
siki
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Salaam siki
Samia and some others
I fail to understand as to why are you not answering the basic contradiction which arises due to your falulty assumption of Mohsinnate as married in 4-24 and prohibited? I have asked/shown you nany a times that it 100%contradicts with what is being commanded in 4-25 and 5-6.
4-25--and if you are not able to marry a believing Mohsinna -- then
5-6--today all Good food---and Hallal for you are believing Mohsinnas as well as Mohsinnas from people of the book--It is like trying to play scrabble when you haven't learnt the ABC yet.
please move forward only when you are able to resolve this basic/major contradiction.
siki
First of all,as long as you consider my assumption as faulty without even reading with "an open mind ",to borrow your request, what I write, what's the point of asking questions?
Where did I say "muhsanat " are married women?
Where did you ask me and I refused to respond? This is the basis of my understanding of this issuehttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598241.msg201306#msg201306
and unless you get rid of this co-descending attitude towards others who debate with you and who you disagree with, there wont be any fruitful discussion
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I will start my post with congratulations to all participants. My head is spinning since a long time ago already. But we keep at it, and I am sure that we are grinding a lot of beans at this time, and surely it will show later on though now we may feel a bit frustrated. I particularly thank you all for your input.
Congratulations also to siki for his 1000th post, great achievement in trying to polish the unpolished, and also for his n-th "you women who suck to the feminist western brainwash" post which I find so funny, unlike the rest which are more serious.
Ok, to the point I see in 4.24 that it says
... illa mamalakat aymaanukum kitaabAllahi ...
gramatically what causes the kitaab to be marfu3? Usually I see it translated in this sentence as a subject. But a subject of what? To say merely that the scripture of God is on them? But then, why marfu3?
Please, grammarians, satisfy me on that and at least one of my thousands of confusions might be lifted.
Thanks and congratulations to all again.
Salaam
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Salaam siki
First of all,as long as you consider my assumption as faulty without even reading with "an open mind ",to borrow your request, what I write, what's the point of asking questions?
Where did I say "muhsanat " are married women?
Where did you ask me and I refused to respond? This is the basis of my understanding of this issuehttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598241.msg201306#msg201306
and unless you get rid of this co-descending attitude towards others who debate with you and who you disagree with, there wont be any fruitful discussion.
Samia , salam.
I get worked up when I find mature experienced members loose their bearing. Whatever, I will try and be more careful about my co descening attitude that you mentioned.
Trust me , when I say that I seriously evaluated your sexually disabled theory, but when I tried to fit that in some other ayas , It did not work out.
And I dont want to do your work, If you are so convinced about it, I think you have the talent to put it in one comprehensive form and show us all , as to how good it works in all the relevant ayas.
(Btw, my address was , samia and others, I am in knowledge of your disabled postulate since very long)
siki
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Congratulations also to siki for his 1000th post, great achievement in trying to polish the unpolished, and also for his n-th "you women who suck to the feminist western brainwash" post which I find so funny, unlike the rest which are more serious.
Thanks,
By the way ,"this western feminist brain wash" , Isn't this a fact? ;D Gone are the days when we men used to posses you with our right hands voodoo ,and add or change you at will, Now you rule the world, and poor us , we are just being utilised for providing food and seeds.
OK coming to some serious talk,
What are you trying to know regarding , Kitab allah he allukum, what is the confusion? and what is this Marfu3?
siki
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5.5 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them;
? and the muhsanat (immune) from the believing women,
? and the muhsanat (immune) from the people of the Scripture before you,
if
? you have given them their dowries,
? you are muhsinin (immune)
? you are chaste,
? and you are not seeking to take lovers.
And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.One should be immune (muhsan) (sexually able) to marry a muhsana (a lady who is sexually able)
As per verses 424-25 any one (who have any sexual defect) who is not able physically to marry muhsanat shall look for a lady who will voluntarily accept his condition and marry with her. This lady will be his MMA and he will be her MMA.
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One should be immune (muhsan) (sexually able) to marry a muhsana (a lady who is sexually able)
As per verses 424-25 any one (who have any sexual defect) who is not able physically to marry muhsanat shall look for a lady who will voluntarily accept his condition and marry with her. This lady will be his MMA and he will be her MMA.
rotfl Brother , i would be interested in finding out, as to how have you translated the words , Mohsann or mohsinnate , into sexually able Man or woman?
Moreover, where are the sexual defects mentioned in 4-24 or 4-25?
siki
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Thanks,
What are you trying to know regarding , Kitab allah he allukum, what is the confusion? and what is this Marfu3?
siki
I am trying to know what the Qur'an says exactly. Kitaaba marfu3 means roughly that it is in accusative form and therefore is not a subject unless it is modified by some particle, but if it is, which is that particle? That is, I want to know what is "kitaaba"'s function in the sentence, and where does the sentence end and where does it begin.
Salaam
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Peace Nyma,
I disagree. For example a branch of rose as ajr does not have to be written down as it is not of enough value to be written down. If it is not of enough value, then it does not come under the DYN in the context of 2282. If you lent a pen to a friend, would you have it written down or witnessed?? I wouldn?t unless the pen was of ENOUGH valuable to me.
ITS VALUE DOES NOT MATTER. 2282 does not say that record only those debts that have value. DAYN refers to ANYTHING OWED.
DYN in 2282 does not refer to "something owed that is of value" but refers to anything owed or any debt.
You would be right only if 2282 had said "if you owe anything of value", and then the god wiould have defined the value also to avoid confusion in 2282, but it does not say that.
It is not compulsory to my understanding. You don?t have to have an ?allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah?. 2237 does not say nor imply that there HAS to be an ?allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah? its implication is that there CAN be one.
2237 refers to when ajr has been specified/stipulated but not yet paid, which would automatically require a written contract. The "oqdat al-nikah" in this sign refers to this written contract. It is a written contract because ajr has been specified/stipulated but not yet paid, so it is owed and comes under DYN.
In my other post which you have not yet commented on, I mentioned the understanding that there is no written contract if AJR is paid on the spot at the time of nikah, but if it is not given at time of nikah, then the written contract is compulsory.
Yes. But I see no wrong in my understanding of You can propose publicly or secretly but until you agree to start a relationship it does not come under Ba-Ya-Ayn. Once it starts, THEN it may fall under Ba-Ya-Ayn thus 2 witnesses are required if this is considered as on the spot.
Proposal is called "khitbaat al-nisaa" according to 2235, and because it can be public or secret, no witnesses needed. I never said that "proposal" comes under Ba-Ya-Ayn. You are misquoting me here, and that is one thing which I really really really don't like.
Oath to get married is the next step after "proposal". Once you take an oath in front of the god to get married then she becomes your MMA. This oath to get married (not the proposal), will come under Ba-Ya-Ayn and will need one witness or two witnesses depending on condition of the husband (see my other post on 2282 that you haven't commented on for how many witnesses).
There can be three steps, out of which first is optional, but second and third are compulsory
- Proposal (KHITBAAT AL-NISA) ------> No witnesses necessary
- Oath to get married (MMA) ---------> one or two male witnesses required
- Nikah/marriage ---------------------> number of witnesses depends on condition of husband, written contract required only when AJR not given on the spot at the time of nikah.
I disagree as you have not backed this up. Verses?? I found none.
I cannot find a verse which says that ajr is mutually agreed. Thus no point in discussing this point until you provide evidence.424 ..................... As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
It clearly mentions "mutual agreement"/"tardaitum".
You can argue that the mutual agreement is AFTER ajr is given as obligation but the end result will be the same. For example, you give her some sand as ajr and AFTER you gave the sand she does not agree, so then "there is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation" as per 424.
Of course what you give depends upon your means as clearly mentioned in 2236
2236 There is no sin upon you if you divorce the women before having sexual intercourse with them, or before stipulating/specifying the stipulation/settlement for them. Let them have recompense, the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means. Recompense which is in goodness, a responsibility for those in kindness.
I repeat that just taking her out would not be ajr unless you also let her know that this will be her ajr for nikah, and then she agrees to it per 424. For example, you take her out and let her know that this is her ajr for marriage and then after you take her out she disagrees, then you can settle it with mutual agreement as per 424.
Everything related to nikah/marriage has to be with mutual agreement. This is common sense. For example, you cannot force your wife into having sex with you when she is not feeling like having sex, thereby raping her. You cannot also just give her a fistful of sand as ajr, even though she disagrees to it, and then think your obligation is fulfilled.
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Peace everyone,
Mohsanaat cannot mean "sexually able" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 425, which would make fatayaat "unable to have sex". Immune actually means "those with whom you are unable to have sex". I am immune to flu will mean that flu virus cannot infect me. I am immune to sex would mean that no one can have sex with me. So if "mohsanaat" are "immune" that would make "fatayaat" "non-immune" which is nonsensical.
Mohsanaat cannot mean "chaste" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 425, which would make fatayaat "unchaste" and will be slanderous to them.
Mohsanaat cannot mean "married" women, because then it will be ok to get married to a married women per 424 i.e. MMA from the mohsanaat.
Mohsanaat can only mean "independent" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 424, who are dependent on their guardian/family because we need to get permission from their guardian/family. So mohsanaat would be those women whom the men can marry without permission from anybody else except them. This would make them "independent".
Out of the mohsanaat/independent women and fatayaat, we can marry only those who are MMA. This would mean that the men have to first make mohsanaat or fatayaat their MMA, only then they can be married.
Once the dependent woman becomes MMA and then gets married, her marriage makes her "mohsana"/"independent" from her guardian/family per 425.
Mohsanaat/independent women will therefore include the following 3 categories
- Independent single women
- Independent married women
- Independent single women who you make an oath to get married to (MMA from mohsanaat)
Out of these 3 categories, only the third one is allowed to be married to per 424. This would mean that a man has to first make an oath to get married to the independent single woman, and only then he can get married to her. Therefore, oath to get married would be compulsory before marriage.
The already married women will not qualify for the allowed MMA from mohsanaat category, because they are not those whom YOU made an oath to, but they are already those whom SOMEONE ELSE made an oath to. So the married women cannot be YOUR MMA.
NO CONTRADICTIONS, NO CONFUSION.
MOHSANAAT = INDEPENDENT WOMEN
FATAYAAT = DEPENDENT WOMEN
MMA = Those with whom you made an oath to get married.It would make sense to be able to see each other's private parts before getting married to them but after making an oath to get married to them per 235-6 to make sure they don't have any STD's or deformities or impotence because that will have disastrous consequences if found after marriage. This oath is binding and will only be taken by believers so they will take it seriously and not make casual oaths just to check out someone's private parts. In addition to that, breaking this oath is not something casual but has a penalty
589 God will not hold you for your unintentional oaths, but He will hold you for what oaths you have made binding; its cancellation shall be the feeding of ten poor from the average of what you feed your family, or that you clothe them, or that you free a slave; whoever cannot find shall fast for three days; this is a cancellation for making your oaths when you swear. And be careful from making oaths. It is such that God clarifies for you His revelations that you may be thankful.
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Samia , salam.
I get worked up when I find mature experienced members loose their bearing. Whatever, I will try and be more careful about my co descening attitude that you mentioned.
Trust me , when I say that I seriously evaluated your sexually disabled theory, but when I tried to fit that in some other ayas , It did not work out.
And I dont want to do your work, If you are so convinced about it, I think you have the talent to put it in one comprehensive form and show us all , as to how good it works in all the relevant ayas.
(Btw, my address was , samia and others, I am in knowledge of your disabled postulate since very long)
siki
Salaam siki
I haven't seen so far any constructive criticism from you to my understanding of MMA and Muhsanat, let alone any serious evaluation. When Tlepsh and Rassulhamsa expressed similar understanding, you rediculed them. Now Tlepsh again tried to show how the meaning fits elsewhere, and what he gets? A lol from you!
I do not want you to do my homework, you do not even know what my homework is. You just keep saying this "sexually disabled theory" bla bla...What don't you like in it in principle? Do you think that sexually disabled/disinterested people are rare? Do you think that those sexually disabled do not cause suffering to women/ muhsanat when they marry them without disclosing their problem? I have seen such cases more than you can imagine, even as recently as a few weeks ago. Isn't such a "crime" worth mentioning by God? Isn't it worth being addressed? -
Ok, here it is...
IMHO
The topic of "marriage"
Allah commands(in 2/282) that transactions be written down and witnessed, *unless it is a tijaaratun haaziratun, where the wage has been given on the spot.
** There is no punishment for not following these orders.
Keeping that in mind...
4/25 mentions a transaction between a man and a woman. In case the wage is not paid on the spot, it should be written down and witnessed. If the wage was paid on the spot, i.e. it was a tijaaratun haaziratun, and writing down, or even witnessing, is not required. They are now zawj of each other, or "husband" and "wife".
Therefore if a man and a woman want to have such a tijaaratun haziratun between themselves, in which no writing or witnessing is required, they are not to be blamed. If it was not tijaaratun haaziratun, but they still did not have the transaction written down and witnessed, they still cannot be punished*.
Going by this understanding, no one can be logically be accused of pre-marital sex.
To start with,
Going by this logic , if there is a child, and if the man wants/wanted , he can/could runway from the responsibility of fatherhood or supporting, leaving the two, all alone in this cruel world.
Yes he could. Does that somehow show that my understanding is un-Quranic?
Now you would come up with DNA genetic testing for paternity, but that is recent phenomena.
Would I? Have you seen me using those kind of arguments before? )
(Bro, let's settle the above dispute the best we can before moving on to others)
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Salaam siki
I haven't seen so far any constructive criticism from you to my understanding of MMA and Muhsanat, let alone any serious evaluation. When Tlepsh and Rassulhamsa expressed similar understanding, you rediculed them. Now Tlepsh again tried to show how the meaning fits elsewhere, and what he gets? A lol from you!
I do not want you to do my homework, you do not even know what my homework is. You just keep saying this "sexually disabled theory" bla bla...What don't you like in it in principle? Do you think that sexually disabled/disinterested people are rare? Do you think that those sexually disabled do not cause suffering to women/ muhsanat when they marry them without disclosing their problem? I have seen such cases more than you can imagine, even as recently as a few weeks ago. Isn't such a "crime" worth mentioning by God? Isn't it worth being addressed?Dear Samia
To perform "sexually disabled marriage or sexless marriages" is a crime because right to have children and right for sexual gratification are forfeited on the part of the other partner.Which is definitely a CRIME in any civilized society.
If both partner know this fact and even then they agree to marry that is another issue.
Regards -
rotfl Brother , i would be interested in finding out, as to how have you translated the words , Mohsann or mohsinnate , into sexually able Man or woman?
Moreover, where are the sexual defects mentioned in 4-24 or 4-25?
siki
When you laugh out loud you loose ability to clearly listen to others, and that is not the behaviour of a person who really wants to learn. IMO Tlepsh's translation does make sense. We are advised to follow the best, we should not let our common sense to be polluted with preconceived notions. Tlepsh and Samia are making more sense so far.
Thanks
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To perform "sexually disabled marriage or sexless marriages" is a crime because right to have children and right for sexual gratification are forfeited on the part of the other partner.Which is definitely a CRIME in any civilized society.
If the people agree (willingly forfeit), there is no sin in not having sex in a marriage. Unless you have some evidence otherwise...I mean other than your personal opinion of what constitutes a "CRIME in a civilised society" where sex is apparently such a basic need.
If both partner know this fact and even then they agree to marry that is another issue.
Obviously quranic marriages are not forced.
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If the people agree (willingly forfeit), there is no sin in not having sex in a marriage. Unless you have some evidence otherwise...I mean other than your personal opinion of what constitutes a "CRIME in a civilised society" where sex is apparently such a basic need.
Obviously quranic marriages are not forced.Dear Savage
You have not read my post properly. I have talked about agreement. That is not the question.
The purpose of Nikah
1To produce progeny
2Sexual gratification
If someone is sexually disabled and gets married, the wife has the right to go to the court to get divorce. Because it is "Cheating" and Fraud.
Regards -
Dear Savage
You have not read my post properly. I have talked about agreement. That is not the question.
The purpose of Nikah
1To produce progeny
2Sexual gratification
If someone is sexually disabled and gets married, the wife has the right to go to the court to get divorce. Because it is "Cheating" and Fraud.
RegardsYes...and??? I mean are you bringing anything to the table to bolster or negate Samia's sexually disabled marriage concept? No...but that's alright.
edit for preciseness
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2432-33 And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants.
If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
And let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty.
And (from among these poor people) those who are seeking for MMA (those who are sexually disabled are seeking for MMA) then make with them the contract (ْ of marriage, if you find any good in them, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you.
And do not force your daughters to be MMA if they desire to have a marriage with sex, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.
(و Baghu = seeking what one should not seek
Normally a muhsana shall seek a marriage with sex so she should not be forced to sexless marriage.The word (ا is used for muhsans and the word (ْ is used for non-muhsans. Those who are non-muhsans can only write the marriage contract but they can not (ْ go into the women.