Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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One should be immune (muhsan) (sexually able) to marry a muhsana (a lady who is sexually able)
As per verses 424-25 any one (who have any sexual defect) who is not able physically to marry muhsanat shall look for a lady who will voluntarily accept his condition and marry with her. This lady will be his MMA and he will be her MMA.
rotfl Brother , i would be interested in finding out, as to how have you translated the words , Mohsann or mohsinnate , into sexually able Man or woman?
Moreover, where are the sexual defects mentioned in 4-24 or 4-25?
siki
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Thanks,
What are you trying to know regarding , Kitab allah he allukum, what is the confusion? and what is this Marfu3?
siki
I am trying to know what the Qur'an says exactly. Kitaaba marfu3 means roughly that it is in accusative form and therefore is not a subject unless it is modified by some particle, but if it is, which is that particle? That is, I want to know what is "kitaaba"'s function in the sentence, and where does the sentence end and where does it begin.
Salaam
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Peace Nyma,
I disagree. For example a branch of rose as ajr does not have to be written down as it is not of enough value to be written down. If it is not of enough value, then it does not come under the DYN in the context of 2282. If you lent a pen to a friend, would you have it written down or witnessed?? I wouldn?t unless the pen was of ENOUGH valuable to me.
ITS VALUE DOES NOT MATTER. 2282 does not say that record only those debts that have value. DAYN refers to ANYTHING OWED.
DYN in 2282 does not refer to "something owed that is of value" but refers to anything owed or any debt.
You would be right only if 2282 had said "if you owe anything of value", and then the god wiould have defined the value also to avoid confusion in 2282, but it does not say that.
It is not compulsory to my understanding. You don?t have to have an ?allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah?. 2237 does not say nor imply that there HAS to be an ?allathee biyadihi oqdat al-nikah? its implication is that there CAN be one.
2237 refers to when ajr has been specified/stipulated but not yet paid, which would automatically require a written contract. The "oqdat al-nikah" in this sign refers to this written contract. It is a written contract because ajr has been specified/stipulated but not yet paid, so it is owed and comes under DYN.
In my other post which you have not yet commented on, I mentioned the understanding that there is no written contract if AJR is paid on the spot at the time of nikah, but if it is not given at time of nikah, then the written contract is compulsory.
Yes. But I see no wrong in my understanding of You can propose publicly or secretly but until you agree to start a relationship it does not come under Ba-Ya-Ayn. Once it starts, THEN it may fall under Ba-Ya-Ayn thus 2 witnesses are required if this is considered as on the spot.
Proposal is called "khitbaat al-nisaa" according to 2235, and because it can be public or secret, no witnesses needed. I never said that "proposal" comes under Ba-Ya-Ayn. You are misquoting me here, and that is one thing which I really really really don't like.
Oath to get married is the next step after "proposal". Once you take an oath in front of the god to get married then she becomes your MMA. This oath to get married (not the proposal), will come under Ba-Ya-Ayn and will need one witness or two witnesses depending on condition of the husband (see my other post on 2282 that you haven't commented on for how many witnesses).
There can be three steps, out of which first is optional, but second and third are compulsory
- Proposal (KHITBAAT AL-NISA) ------> No witnesses necessary
- Oath to get married (MMA) ---------> one or two male witnesses required
- Nikah/marriage ---------------------> number of witnesses depends on condition of husband, written contract required only when AJR not given on the spot at the time of nikah.
I disagree as you have not backed this up. Verses?? I found none.
I cannot find a verse which says that ajr is mutually agreed. Thus no point in discussing this point until you provide evidence.424 ..................... As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
It clearly mentions "mutual agreement"/"tardaitum".
You can argue that the mutual agreement is AFTER ajr is given as obligation but the end result will be the same. For example, you give her some sand as ajr and AFTER you gave the sand she does not agree, so then "there is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation" as per 424.
Of course what you give depends upon your means as clearly mentioned in 2236
2236 There is no sin upon you if you divorce the women before having sexual intercourse with them, or before stipulating/specifying the stipulation/settlement for them. Let them have recompense, the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means. Recompense which is in goodness, a responsibility for those in kindness.
I repeat that just taking her out would not be ajr unless you also let her know that this will be her ajr for nikah, and then she agrees to it per 424. For example, you take her out and let her know that this is her ajr for marriage and then after you take her out she disagrees, then you can settle it with mutual agreement as per 424.
Everything related to nikah/marriage has to be with mutual agreement. This is common sense. For example, you cannot force your wife into having sex with you when she is not feeling like having sex, thereby raping her. You cannot also just give her a fistful of sand as ajr, even though she disagrees to it, and then think your obligation is fulfilled.
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Peace everyone,
Mohsanaat cannot mean "sexually able" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 425, which would make fatayaat "unable to have sex". Immune actually means "those with whom you are unable to have sex". I am immune to flu will mean that flu virus cannot infect me. I am immune to sex would mean that no one can have sex with me. So if "mohsanaat" are "immune" that would make "fatayaat" "non-immune" which is nonsensical.
Mohsanaat cannot mean "chaste" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 425, which would make fatayaat "unchaste" and will be slanderous to them.
Mohsanaat cannot mean "married" women, because then it will be ok to get married to a married women per 424 i.e. MMA from the mohsanaat.
Mohsanaat can only mean "independent" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 424, who are dependent on their guardian/family because we need to get permission from their guardian/family. So mohsanaat would be those women whom the men can marry without permission from anybody else except them. This would make them "independent".
Out of the mohsanaat/independent women and fatayaat, we can marry only those who are MMA. This would mean that the men have to first make mohsanaat or fatayaat their MMA, only then they can be married.
Once the dependent woman becomes MMA and then gets married, her marriage makes her "mohsana"/"independent" from her guardian/family per 425.
Mohsanaat/independent women will therefore include the following 3 categories
- Independent single women
- Independent married women
- Independent single women who you make an oath to get married to (MMA from mohsanaat)
Out of these 3 categories, only the third one is allowed to be married to per 424. This would mean that a man has to first make an oath to get married to the independent single woman, and only then he can get married to her. Therefore, oath to get married would be compulsory before marriage.
The already married women will not qualify for the allowed MMA from mohsanaat category, because they are not those whom YOU made an oath to, but they are already those whom SOMEONE ELSE made an oath to. So the married women cannot be YOUR MMA.
NO CONTRADICTIONS, NO CONFUSION.
MOHSANAAT = INDEPENDENT WOMEN
FATAYAAT = DEPENDENT WOMEN
MMA = Those with whom you made an oath to get married.It would make sense to be able to see each other's private parts before getting married to them but after making an oath to get married to them per 235-6 to make sure they don't have any STD's or deformities or impotence because that will have disastrous consequences if found after marriage. This oath is binding and will only be taken by believers so they will take it seriously and not make casual oaths just to check out someone's private parts. In addition to that, breaking this oath is not something casual but has a penalty
589 God will not hold you for your unintentional oaths, but He will hold you for what oaths you have made binding; its cancellation shall be the feeding of ten poor from the average of what you feed your family, or that you clothe them, or that you free a slave; whoever cannot find shall fast for three days; this is a cancellation for making your oaths when you swear. And be careful from making oaths. It is such that God clarifies for you His revelations that you may be thankful.
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Samia , salam.
I get worked up when I find mature experienced members loose their bearing. Whatever, I will try and be more careful about my co descening attitude that you mentioned.
Trust me , when I say that I seriously evaluated your sexually disabled theory, but when I tried to fit that in some other ayas , It did not work out.
And I dont want to do your work, If you are so convinced about it, I think you have the talent to put it in one comprehensive form and show us all , as to how good it works in all the relevant ayas.
(Btw, my address was , samia and others, I am in knowledge of your disabled postulate since very long)
siki
Salaam siki
I haven't seen so far any constructive criticism from you to my understanding of MMA and Muhsanat, let alone any serious evaluation. When Tlepsh and Rassulhamsa expressed similar understanding, you rediculed them. Now Tlepsh again tried to show how the meaning fits elsewhere, and what he gets? A lol from you!
I do not want you to do my homework, you do not even know what my homework is. You just keep saying this "sexually disabled theory" bla bla...What don't you like in it in principle? Do you think that sexually disabled/disinterested people are rare? Do you think that those sexually disabled do not cause suffering to women/ muhsanat when they marry them without disclosing their problem? I have seen such cases more than you can imagine, even as recently as a few weeks ago. Isn't such a "crime" worth mentioning by God? Isn't it worth being addressed? -
Ok, here it is...
IMHO
The topic of "marriage"
Allah commands(in 2/282) that transactions be written down and witnessed, *unless it is a tijaaratun haaziratun, where the wage has been given on the spot.
** There is no punishment for not following these orders.
Keeping that in mind...
4/25 mentions a transaction between a man and a woman. In case the wage is not paid on the spot, it should be written down and witnessed. If the wage was paid on the spot, i.e. it was a tijaaratun haaziratun, and writing down, or even witnessing, is not required. They are now zawj of each other, or "husband" and "wife".
Therefore if a man and a woman want to have such a tijaaratun haziratun between themselves, in which no writing or witnessing is required, they are not to be blamed. If it was not tijaaratun haaziratun, but they still did not have the transaction written down and witnessed, they still cannot be punished*.
Going by this understanding, no one can be logically be accused of pre-marital sex.
To start with,
Going by this logic , if there is a child, and if the man wants/wanted , he can/could runway from the responsibility of fatherhood or supporting, leaving the two, all alone in this cruel world.
Yes he could. Does that somehow show that my understanding is un-Quranic?
Now you would come up with DNA genetic testing for paternity, but that is recent phenomena.
Would I? Have you seen me using those kind of arguments before? )
(Bro, let's settle the above dispute the best we can before moving on to others)
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Salaam siki
I haven't seen so far any constructive criticism from you to my understanding of MMA and Muhsanat, let alone any serious evaluation. When Tlepsh and Rassulhamsa expressed similar understanding, you rediculed them. Now Tlepsh again tried to show how the meaning fits elsewhere, and what he gets? A lol from you!
I do not want you to do my homework, you do not even know what my homework is. You just keep saying this "sexually disabled theory" bla bla...What don't you like in it in principle? Do you think that sexually disabled/disinterested people are rare? Do you think that those sexually disabled do not cause suffering to women/ muhsanat when they marry them without disclosing their problem? I have seen such cases more than you can imagine, even as recently as a few weeks ago. Isn't such a "crime" worth mentioning by God? Isn't it worth being addressed?Dear Samia
To perform "sexually disabled marriage or sexless marriages" is a crime because right to have children and right for sexual gratification are forfeited on the part of the other partner.Which is definitely a CRIME in any civilized society.
If both partner know this fact and even then they agree to marry that is another issue.
Regards -
rotfl Brother , i would be interested in finding out, as to how have you translated the words , Mohsann or mohsinnate , into sexually able Man or woman?
Moreover, where are the sexual defects mentioned in 4-24 or 4-25?
siki
When you laugh out loud you loose ability to clearly listen to others, and that is not the behaviour of a person who really wants to learn. IMO Tlepsh's translation does make sense. We are advised to follow the best, we should not let our common sense to be polluted with preconceived notions. Tlepsh and Samia are making more sense so far.
Thanks
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To perform "sexually disabled marriage or sexless marriages" is a crime because right to have children and right for sexual gratification are forfeited on the part of the other partner.Which is definitely a CRIME in any civilized society.
If the people agree (willingly forfeit), there is no sin in not having sex in a marriage. Unless you have some evidence otherwise...I mean other than your personal opinion of what constitutes a "CRIME in a civilised society" where sex is apparently such a basic need.
If both partner know this fact and even then they agree to marry that is another issue.
Obviously quranic marriages are not forced.
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If the people agree (willingly forfeit), there is no sin in not having sex in a marriage. Unless you have some evidence otherwise...I mean other than your personal opinion of what constitutes a "CRIME in a civilised society" where sex is apparently such a basic need.
Obviously quranic marriages are not forced.Dear Savage
You have not read my post properly. I have talked about agreement. That is not the question.
The purpose of Nikah
1To produce progeny
2Sexual gratification
If someone is sexually disabled and gets married, the wife has the right to go to the court to get divorce. Because it is "Cheating" and Fraud.
Regards -
Dear Savage
You have not read my post properly. I have talked about agreement. That is not the question.
The purpose of Nikah
1To produce progeny
2Sexual gratification
If someone is sexually disabled and gets married, the wife has the right to go to the court to get divorce. Because it is "Cheating" and Fraud.
RegardsYes...and??? I mean are you bringing anything to the table to bolster or negate Samia's sexually disabled marriage concept? No...but that's alright.
edit for preciseness
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2432-33 And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants.
If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
And let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty.
And (from among these poor people) those who are seeking for MMA (those who are sexually disabled are seeking for MMA) then make with them the contract (ْ of marriage, if you find any good in them, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you.
And do not force your daughters to be MMA if they desire to have a marriage with sex, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.
(و Baghu = seeking what one should not seek
Normally a muhsana shall seek a marriage with sex so she should not be forced to sexless marriage.The word (ا is used for muhsans and the word (ْ is used for non-muhsans. Those who are non-muhsans can only write the marriage contract but they can not (ْ go into the women.
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244 And those who accuse the immune women (muhsanat) and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers.
Normally no one will accuse a sexually disabled person for zina, therefore here the term muhsanat (sexually able women) is used.
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Peace truthseeker11
{quote}
"Mohsanaat can only mean "independent" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 424, who are dependent on their guardian/family because we need to get permission from their guardian/family. So mohsanaat would be those women whom the men can marry without permission from anybody else except them. This would make them "independent".
Out of the mohsanaat/independent women and fatayaat, we can marry only those who are MMA. This would mean that the men have to first make mohsanaat or fatayaat their MMA, only then they can be married.
Once the dependent woman becomes MMA and then gets married, her marriage makes her "mohsana"/"independent" from her guardian/family per 425.
Mohsanaat/independent women will therefore include the following 3 categories
- Independent single women
- Independent married women
- Independent single women who you make an oath to get married to (MMA from mohsanaat)
Out of these 3 categories, only the third one is allowed to be married to per 424. This would mean that a man has to first make an oath to get married to the independent single woman, and only then he can get married to her. Therefore, oath to get married would be compulsory before marriage " { quote}
The only class of women who do not require anyone's permission to get married in a Muslim country such as Indonesia are 'Widows' and 'Divorcees' , can this be what "MMA from Mohsanaat" is ?
Peace almarh0m
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2432-33 And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants.
If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
And let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty.
And (from among these poor people) those who are seeking for MMA (those who are sexually disabled are seeking for MMA) then make with them the contract (ْ of marriage, if you find any good in them, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you.
And do not force your daughters to be MMA if they desire to have a marriage with sex, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.
(و Baghu = seeking what one should not seek
Normally a muhsana shall seek a marriage with sex so she should not be forced to sexless marriage.The word (ا is used for muhsans and the word (ْ is used for non-muhsans. Those who are non-muhsans can only write the marriage contract but they can not (ْ go into the women.
Salaam
Exposition by G A Pervaiz
- And let those who cannot afford to marry, live in continence (and protect their chastity6) till the Divine System makes suitable arrangements for them.
And for your male and female slaves who desire to obtain a release, write it out for them, provided you think that they are quite capable of looking after themselves. (In other words, you have to ensure that they are not dull or weak in understanding, or are capable of looking after themselves on their own ~ 45-6.) For that purpose give them something from yourself, out of the wealth that Allah has provided to you. Do not stop your young girls (maid servants or slave girls) who are desirous of marriage, from marrying in order to gain some worldly benefit. They may otherwise resort to illicit relations. If anyone of you forces them to do so, there exists a provision in the Divine Law for their protection against this coercion and for their nourishment. (It certainly is incumbent on the Divine System to protect their rights.)
Muhammad Asad
(2433) And as for those who are unable to marry,44 let them live in continence until God grants them sufficiency out of His bounty.And if any of those whom you rightfully possess45 desire a deed of freedom, write it out for them if you are aware of any good in them46 and give them of the wealth of God which He has given you.47
And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage;49 and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled [to submit in their helplessness), God will be much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!
024.033
YUSUFALI Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),PICKTHAL And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Regards
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Peace everyone,
Mohsanaat cannot mean "sexually able" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 425, which would make fatayaat "unable to have sex". Immune actually means "those with whom you are unable to have sex". I am immune to flu will mean that flu virus cannot infect me. I am immune to sex would mean that no one can have sex with me. So if "mohsanaat" are "immune" that would make "fatayaat" "non-immune" which is nonsensical.
Mohsanaat cannot mean "chaste" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 425, which would make fatayaat "unchaste" and will be slanderous to them.
Mohsanaat cannot mean "married" women, because then it will be ok to get married to a married women per 424 i.e. MMA from the mohsanaat.
Mohsanaat can only mean "independent" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 424, who are dependent on their guardian/family because we need to get permission from their guardian/family. So mohsanaat would be those women whom the men can marry without permission from anybody else except them. This would make them "independent".
Out of the mohsanaat/independent women and fatayaat, we can marry only those who are MMA. This would mean that the men have to first make mohsanaat or fatayaat their MMA, only then they can be married.
Once the dependent woman becomes MMA and then gets married, her marriage makes her "mohsana"/"independent" from her guardian/family per 425.
Mohsanaat/independent women will therefore include the following 3 categories
- Independent single women
- Independent married women
- Independent single women who you make an oath to get married to (MMA from mohsanaat)
Out of these 3 categories, only the third one is allowed to be married to per 424. This would mean that a man has to first make an oath to get married to the independent single woman, and only then he can get married to her. Therefore, oath to get married would be compulsory before marriage.
The already married women will not qualify for the allowed MMA from mohsanaat category, because they are not those whom YOU made an oath to, but they are already those whom SOMEONE ELSE made an oath to. So the married women cannot be YOUR MMA.
NO CONTRADICTIONS, NO CONFUSION.
MOHSANAAT = INDEPENDENT WOMEN
FATAYAAT = DEPENDENT WOMEN
MMA = Those with whom you made an oath to get married.It would make sense to be able to see each other's private parts before getting married to them but after making an oath to get married to them per 235-6 to make sure they don't have any STD's or deformities or impotence because that will have disastrous consequences if found after marriage. This oath is binding and will only be taken by believers so they will take it seriously and not make casual oaths just to check out someone's private parts. In addition to that, breaking this oath is not something casual but has a penalty
589 God will not hold you for your unintentional oaths, but He will hold you for what oaths you have made binding; its cancellation shall be the feeding of ten poor from the average of what you feed your family, or that you clothe them, or that you free a slave; whoever cannot find shall fast for three days; this is a cancellation for making your oaths when you swear. And be careful from making oaths. It is such that God clarifies for you His revelations that you may be thankful.
TS,
That is a good job done , presenting your understanding as one package, let me evaluate it , and then i shall come up with questions.
siki
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Salaam siki
I haven't seen so far any constructive criticism from you to my understanding of MMA and Muhsanat, let alone any serious evaluation. When Tlepsh and Rassulhamsa expressed similar understanding, you rediculed them. Now Tlepsh again tried to show how the meaning fits elsewhere, and what he gets? A lol from you!
I do not want you to do my homework, you do not even know what my homework is. You just keep saying this "sexually disabled theory" bla bla...What don't you like in it in principle? Do you think that sexually disabled/disinterested people are rare? Do you think that those sexually disabled do not cause suffering to women/ muhsanat when they marry them without disclosing their problem? I have seen such cases more than you can imagine, even as recently as a few weeks ago. Isn't such a "crime" worth mentioning by God? Isn't it worth being addressed?Samia,salam.
kindly define, the words, Mohsinnats, and MMA, and if possible, elobrate as to how they work out in all relevant ayas.
peace
siki
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4-24 ----------seek them with your money , with an aim to maintain chastity, not fornicating, you must pay them their wages before you touch them , and when you have enjoyed them, there is no sin upon you what you both agree to. God is knowledgeable wise.
What I understand out of this is that "Prostitution is allowed" because,
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The "marriage/Nikah" word is missing from this very important commandment.
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You are to seek her with your money (in a normal relationship you dont seek the woman with your money, you seek them with your luv)
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You must pay her agreed wage before you derive sexual benefit, (so that you dont runaway after sex)
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You are doing it to maintain chastity ( by doing this you will be reducing your sexual tension, if you dont, you might end up out pouring at thy neighbor's wife/girl. And that would be Fornication , which God has strictly prohibited)
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After the act there is no obligation for any one (you part ways or you both agree to go for a cup of coffee)
And who are these women that one can hire for this job? That is covered in first part of aya, and I have no idea about it , all it says, "Wal mohsinnate, ILLa Ma maalakat emnakum"
IS my understanding UN Quranic?
siki
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When you laugh out loud you loose ability to clearly listen to others, and that is not the behaviour of a person who really wants to learn. IMO Tlepsh's translation does make sense. We are advised to follow the best, we should not let our common sense to be polluted with preconceived notions. Tlepsh and Samia are making more sense so far.
Thanks
hail Yes sir.....
;D How about changing your username to "Globocop" ?
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Thelps,
In your explantion of 24-33,
you say , "and the sexually disabled , out of these are seeking MMA".
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where is the sexually disabled word in aya 24-33? Or as you have imagined MMA to be sexually disabled, so any one looking for them , would automatically be sexually disabled one?
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Where is the daughter word in 24-33?
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And if they(fatayat) are forced for a sexless marriage, then why would be god forgiving most merciful?
siki
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