Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Dear Savage
You have not read my post properly. I have talked about agreement. That is not the question.
The purpose of Nikah
1To produce progeny
2Sexual gratification
If someone is sexually disabled and gets married, the wife has the right to go to the court to get divorce. Because it is "Cheating" and Fraud.
RegardsYes...and??? I mean are you bringing anything to the table to bolster or negate Samia's sexually disabled marriage concept? No...but that's alright.
edit for preciseness
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2432-33 And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants.
If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
And let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty.
And (from among these poor people) those who are seeking for MMA (those who are sexually disabled are seeking for MMA) then make with them the contract (ْ of marriage, if you find any good in them, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you.
And do not force your daughters to be MMA if they desire to have a marriage with sex, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.
(و Baghu = seeking what one should not seek
Normally a muhsana shall seek a marriage with sex so she should not be forced to sexless marriage.The word (ا is used for muhsans and the word (ْ is used for non-muhsans. Those who are non-muhsans can only write the marriage contract but they can not (ْ go into the women.
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244 And those who accuse the immune women (muhsanat) and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers.
Normally no one will accuse a sexually disabled person for zina, therefore here the term muhsanat (sexually able women) is used.
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Peace truthseeker11
{quote}
"Mohsanaat can only mean "independent" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 424, who are dependent on their guardian/family because we need to get permission from their guardian/family. So mohsanaat would be those women whom the men can marry without permission from anybody else except them. This would make them "independent".
Out of the mohsanaat/independent women and fatayaat, we can marry only those who are MMA. This would mean that the men have to first make mohsanaat or fatayaat their MMA, only then they can be married.
Once the dependent woman becomes MMA and then gets married, her marriage makes her "mohsana"/"independent" from her guardian/family per 425.
Mohsanaat/independent women will therefore include the following 3 categories
- Independent single women
- Independent married women
- Independent single women who you make an oath to get married to (MMA from mohsanaat)
Out of these 3 categories, only the third one is allowed to be married to per 424. This would mean that a man has to first make an oath to get married to the independent single woman, and only then he can get married to her. Therefore, oath to get married would be compulsory before marriage " { quote}
The only class of women who do not require anyone's permission to get married in a Muslim country such as Indonesia are 'Widows' and 'Divorcees' , can this be what "MMA from Mohsanaat" is ?
Peace almarh0m
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2432-33 And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants.
If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.
And let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty.
And (from among these poor people) those who are seeking for MMA (those who are sexually disabled are seeking for MMA) then make with them the contract (ْ of marriage, if you find any good in them, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you.
And do not force your daughters to be MMA if they desire to have a marriage with sex, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. But if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.
(و Baghu = seeking what one should not seek
Normally a muhsana shall seek a marriage with sex so she should not be forced to sexless marriage.The word (ا is used for muhsans and the word (ْ is used for non-muhsans. Those who are non-muhsans can only write the marriage contract but they can not (ْ go into the women.
Salaam
Exposition by G A Pervaiz
- And let those who cannot afford to marry, live in continence (and protect their chastity6) till the Divine System makes suitable arrangements for them.
And for your male and female slaves who desire to obtain a release, write it out for them, provided you think that they are quite capable of looking after themselves. (In other words, you have to ensure that they are not dull or weak in understanding, or are capable of looking after themselves on their own ~ 45-6.) For that purpose give them something from yourself, out of the wealth that Allah has provided to you. Do not stop your young girls (maid servants or slave girls) who are desirous of marriage, from marrying in order to gain some worldly benefit. They may otherwise resort to illicit relations. If anyone of you forces them to do so, there exists a provision in the Divine Law for their protection against this coercion and for their nourishment. (It certainly is incumbent on the Divine System to protect their rights.)
Muhammad Asad
(2433) And as for those who are unable to marry,44 let them live in continence until God grants them sufficiency out of His bounty.And if any of those whom you rightfully possess45 desire a deed of freedom, write it out for them if you are aware of any good in them46 and give them of the wealth of God which He has given you.47
And do not, in order to gain some of the fleeting pleasures of this worldly life, coerce your maidens into whoredom if they happen to be desirous of marriage;49 and if anyone should coerce them, then, verily, after they have been compelled [to submit in their helplessness), God will be much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!
024.033
YUSUFALI Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),PICKTHAL And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Regards
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Peace everyone,
Mohsanaat cannot mean "sexually able" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 425, which would make fatayaat "unable to have sex". Immune actually means "those with whom you are unable to have sex". I am immune to flu will mean that flu virus cannot infect me. I am immune to sex would mean that no one can have sex with me. So if "mohsanaat" are "immune" that would make "fatayaat" "non-immune" which is nonsensical.
Mohsanaat cannot mean "chaste" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 425, which would make fatayaat "unchaste" and will be slanderous to them.
Mohsanaat cannot mean "married" women, because then it will be ok to get married to a married women per 424 i.e. MMA from the mohsanaat.
Mohsanaat can only mean "independent" women, because they are contrasted with fatayaat in 424, who are dependent on their guardian/family because we need to get permission from their guardian/family. So mohsanaat would be those women whom the men can marry without permission from anybody else except them. This would make them "independent".
Out of the mohsanaat/independent women and fatayaat, we can marry only those who are MMA. This would mean that the men have to first make mohsanaat or fatayaat their MMA, only then they can be married.
Once the dependent woman becomes MMA and then gets married, her marriage makes her "mohsana"/"independent" from her guardian/family per 425.
Mohsanaat/independent women will therefore include the following 3 categories
- Independent single women
- Independent married women
- Independent single women who you make an oath to get married to (MMA from mohsanaat)
Out of these 3 categories, only the third one is allowed to be married to per 424. This would mean that a man has to first make an oath to get married to the independent single woman, and only then he can get married to her. Therefore, oath to get married would be compulsory before marriage.
The already married women will not qualify for the allowed MMA from mohsanaat category, because they are not those whom YOU made an oath to, but they are already those whom SOMEONE ELSE made an oath to. So the married women cannot be YOUR MMA.
NO CONTRADICTIONS, NO CONFUSION.
MOHSANAAT = INDEPENDENT WOMEN
FATAYAAT = DEPENDENT WOMEN
MMA = Those with whom you made an oath to get married.It would make sense to be able to see each other's private parts before getting married to them but after making an oath to get married to them per 235-6 to make sure they don't have any STD's or deformities or impotence because that will have disastrous consequences if found after marriage. This oath is binding and will only be taken by believers so they will take it seriously and not make casual oaths just to check out someone's private parts. In addition to that, breaking this oath is not something casual but has a penalty
589 God will not hold you for your unintentional oaths, but He will hold you for what oaths you have made binding; its cancellation shall be the feeding of ten poor from the average of what you feed your family, or that you clothe them, or that you free a slave; whoever cannot find shall fast for three days; this is a cancellation for making your oaths when you swear. And be careful from making oaths. It is such that God clarifies for you His revelations that you may be thankful.
TS,
That is a good job done , presenting your understanding as one package, let me evaluate it , and then i shall come up with questions.
siki
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Salaam siki
I haven't seen so far any constructive criticism from you to my understanding of MMA and Muhsanat, let alone any serious evaluation. When Tlepsh and Rassulhamsa expressed similar understanding, you rediculed them. Now Tlepsh again tried to show how the meaning fits elsewhere, and what he gets? A lol from you!
I do not want you to do my homework, you do not even know what my homework is. You just keep saying this "sexually disabled theory" bla bla...What don't you like in it in principle? Do you think that sexually disabled/disinterested people are rare? Do you think that those sexually disabled do not cause suffering to women/ muhsanat when they marry them without disclosing their problem? I have seen such cases more than you can imagine, even as recently as a few weeks ago. Isn't such a "crime" worth mentioning by God? Isn't it worth being addressed?Samia,salam.
kindly define, the words, Mohsinnats, and MMA, and if possible, elobrate as to how they work out in all relevant ayas.
peace
siki
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4-24 ----------seek them with your money , with an aim to maintain chastity, not fornicating, you must pay them their wages before you touch them , and when you have enjoyed them, there is no sin upon you what you both agree to. God is knowledgeable wise.
What I understand out of this is that "Prostitution is allowed" because,
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The "marriage/Nikah" word is missing from this very important commandment.
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You are to seek her with your money (in a normal relationship you dont seek the woman with your money, you seek them with your luv)
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You must pay her agreed wage before you derive sexual benefit, (so that you dont runaway after sex)
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You are doing it to maintain chastity ( by doing this you will be reducing your sexual tension, if you dont, you might end up out pouring at thy neighbor's wife/girl. And that would be Fornication , which God has strictly prohibited)
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After the act there is no obligation for any one (you part ways or you both agree to go for a cup of coffee)
And who are these women that one can hire for this job? That is covered in first part of aya, and I have no idea about it , all it says, "Wal mohsinnate, ILLa Ma maalakat emnakum"
IS my understanding UN Quranic?
siki
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When you laugh out loud you loose ability to clearly listen to others, and that is not the behaviour of a person who really wants to learn. IMO Tlepsh's translation does make sense. We are advised to follow the best, we should not let our common sense to be polluted with preconceived notions. Tlepsh and Samia are making more sense so far.
Thanks
hail Yes sir.....
;D How about changing your username to "Globocop" ?
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Thelps,
In your explantion of 24-33,
you say , "and the sexually disabled , out of these are seeking MMA".
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where is the sexually disabled word in aya 24-33? Or as you have imagined MMA to be sexually disabled, so any one looking for them , would automatically be sexually disabled one?
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Where is the daughter word in 24-33?
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And if they(fatayat) are forced for a sexless marriage, then why would be god forgiving most merciful?
siki
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4-24 ----------seek them with your money , with an aim to maintain chastity, not fornicating, you must pay them their wages before you touch them , and when you have enjoyed them, there is no sin upon you what you both agree to. God is knowledgeable wise.
What I understand out of this is that "Prostitution is allowed" because,
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The "marriage/Nikah" word is missing from this very important commandment.
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You are to seek her with your money (in a normal relationship you dont seek the woman with your money, you seek them with your luv)
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You must pay her agreed wage before you derive sexual benefit, (so that you dont runaway after sex)
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You are doing it to maintain chastity ( by doing this you will be reducing your sexual tension, if you dont, you might end up out pouring at thy neighbor's wife/girl. And that would be Fornication , which God has strictly prohibited)
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After the act there is no obligation for any one (you part ways or you both agree to go for a cup of coffee)
And who are these women that one can hire for this job? That is covered in first part of aya, and I have no idea about it , all it says, "Wal mohsinnate, ILLa Ma maalakat emnakum"
IS my understanding UN Quranic?
siki
To mee what you say amounts to, in order to keep chaste, you hasten to be unchaste, so that afterwards you start counting your chastity and so till the next crunch.... That would be good if what the Qur'an was about was cheating the rules, but I do not think that it is. And if money is for that then there would be no sin in any woman to seek to make money that way and she would still be chaste.
By the way what about my previous message? Nobody would like to answer my request?
I see in 4.24 that it says
... illa mamalakat aymaanukum kitaabAllahi ...
gramatically what causes the kitaab to be marfu3? Usually I see it translated in this sentence as a subject. But a subject of what? To say merely that the scripture of God is on them? But then, why marfu3?
Please, grammarians, satisfy me on that and at least one of my thousands of confusions might be lifted.
Salaam
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Does that somehow show that my understanding is un-Quranic?
(Bro, let's settle the above dispute the best we can before moving on to others)
Not at all, Bro, It must be God who could not fore see the repercussions arising from his commandment.
How about reading an even closer Koranic version ?.... ... recently posted by me,,,, stating ," Quran encourages prostitution"
siki
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4-24 ----------seek them with your money , with an aim to maintain chastity, not fornicating, you must pay them their wages before you touch them , and when you have enjoyed them, there is no sin upon you what you both agree to. God is knowledgeable wise.
What I understand out of this is that "Prostitution is allowed" because,
siki
443 O you who believe, do not come near the sala---------------
Shall we understand out of this that ?God commends us not to make sala? !!!!!!!!????? -
Ok, to the point I see in 4.24 that it says
... illa mamalakat aymaanukum kitaabAllahi ...
gramatically what causes the kitaab to be marfu3? Usually I see it translated in this sentence as a subject. But a subject of what? To say merely that the scripture of God is on them? But then, why marfu3?
Salaam
Salaam huruf
In my opinion, kitaballahi (in the accusative/ ) is an absolute accusative serving a purpose ( ). It's like the word "revenge/ in the following sentence He killed him in revenge (qatalahu-n-tiqaman/ ).
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443 O you who believe, do not come near the sala---------------
Shall we understand out of this that ?God commends us not to make sala? !!!!!!!!?????Do you want me to fill in those lines as to what you understand of Mohsinnat and MMA?
That would mean , paid sex allowed with only sexually abled ones, the sexually disabled are not to take part in any such activity. ..... or is it otherwise... I am still confused. confused
siki
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Salaam huruf
In my opinion, kitaballahi (in the accusative/ ) is an absolute accusative serving a purpose ( ). It's like the word "revenge/ in the following sentence He killed him in revenge (qatalahu-n-tiqaman/ ).
So would I be right to undderstand that it qualifies the "ma malakat aymanukum" and it would means something like "those your are rightfully entitled to by virtue of God's scripture"?
Thanks.
Salaam
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4-24 ----------seek them with your money , with an aim to maintain chastity, not fornicating, you must pay them their wages before you touch them , and when you have enjoyed them, there is no sin upon you what you both agree to. God is knowledgeable wise.
What I understand out of this is that "Prostitution is allowed" because,
commandment.
- You are to seek her with your money[/size
CONGRATULATIONS TO RED LIGHT AREA COMMUNITY FOR THIS QURANIC CERTIFICATE.
Regards -
Q_student's post reminded me of this thread.
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So would I be right to undderstand that it qualifies the "ma malakat aymanukum" and it would means something like "those your are rightfully entitled to by virtue of God's scripture"?
Thanks.
Salaam
Yes, it's about MMA and I believe your understanding is similar to what I understand too.
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Q_student's post reminded me of this thread.
Nadia!
salam,
D Good God, wasn't I pleasantly surprised (and a little ashamed) when I found you oldies much more civilised than what we are as a bunch today. You guys definitely had a higher threshold of tolerance for any non conforming understanding, and debated controversial issues with respect and open mind.
About the issue, what I found amazing was, "Not a single one of those few hundred posts" mentioned 4-24. Which in reality, is the commandment packed with evidence in favour of paid sex. On the other hand every one hoping over 24-33, which instead, cautions the guardian to desist forcing a young one for it, in case she doesn't want to.
peace
siki