Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!

siki

Thelps,

In your explantion of 24-33,

you say , "and the sexually disabled , out of these are seeking MMA".

where is the sexually disabled word in aya 24-33? Or as you have imagined MMA to be sexually disabled, so any one looking for them , would automatically be sexually disabled one?
Where is the daughter word in 24-33?
And if they(fatayat) are forced for a sexless marriage, then why would be god forgiving most merciful?

siki

huruf

4-24 ----------seek them with your money , with an aim to maintain chastity, not fornicating, you must pay them their wages before you touch them , and when you have enjoyed them, there is no sin upon you what you both agree to. God is knowledgeable wise.

What I understand out of this is that "Prostitution is allowed" because,

The "marriage/Nikah" word is missing from this very important commandment.
You are to seek her with your money (in a normal relationship you dont seek the woman with your money, you seek them with your luv)
You must pay her agreed wage before you derive sexual benefit, (so that you dont runaway after sex)
You are doing it to maintain chastity ( by doing this you will be reducing your sexual tension, if you dont, you might end up out pouring at thy neighbor's wife/girl. And that would be Fornication , which God has strictly prohibited)
After the act there is no obligation for any one (you part ways or you both agree to go for a cup of coffee)

And who are these women that one can hire for this job? That is covered in first part of aya, and I have no idea about it , all it says, "Wal mohsinnate, ILLa Ma maalakat emnakum"

IS my understanding UN Quranic?

siki

To mee what you say amounts to, in order to keep chaste, you hasten to be unchaste, so that afterwards you start counting your chastity and so till the next crunch.... That would be good if what the Qur'an was about was cheating the rules, but I do not think that it is. And if money is for that then there would be no sin in any woman to seek to make money that way and she would still be chaste.

By the way what about my previous message? Nobody would like to answer my request?

I see in 4.24 that it says

... illa mamalakat aymaanukum kitaabAllahi ...

gramatically what causes the kitaab to be marfu3? Usually I see it translated in this sentence as a subject. But a subject of what? To say merely that the scripture of God is on them? But then, why marfu3?

Please, grammarians, satisfy me on that and at least one of my thousands of confusions might be lifted.

Salaam

siki

Does that somehow show that my understanding is un-Quranic?

(Bro, let's settle the above dispute the best we can before moving on to others)

Not at all, Bro, It must be God who could not fore see the repercussions arising from his commandment.

How about reading an even closer Koranic version ?.... ... recently posted by me,,,, stating ," Quran encourages prostitution"

siki

Tlepsh

4-24 ----------seek them with your money , with an aim to maintain chastity, not fornicating, you must pay them their wages before you touch them , and when you have enjoyed them, there is no sin upon you what you both agree to. God is knowledgeable wise.

What I understand out of this is that "Prostitution is allowed" because,

siki

443 O you who believe, do not come near the sala---------------
Shall we understand out of this that ?God commends us not to make sala? !!!!!!!!?????

Samia

Ok, to the point I see in 4.24 that it says

... illa mamalakat aymaanukum kitaabAllahi ...

gramatically what causes the kitaab to be marfu3? Usually I see it translated in this sentence as a subject. But a subject of what? To say merely that the scripture of God is on them? But then, why marfu3?

Salaam

Salaam huruf

In my opinion, kitaballahi (in the accusative/ ) is an absolute accusative serving a purpose ( ). It's like the word "revenge/ in the following sentence He killed him in revenge (qatalahu-n-tiqaman/ ).

siki

443 O you who believe, do not come near the sala---------------
Shall we understand out of this that ?God commends us not to make sala? !!!!!!!!?????

Do you want me to fill in those lines as to what you understand of Mohsinnat and MMA?

That would mean , paid sex allowed with only sexually abled ones, the sexually disabled are not to take part in any such activity. ..... or is it otherwise... I am still confused. confused

siki

huruf

Salaam huruf

In my opinion, kitaballahi (in the accusative/ ) is an absolute accusative serving a purpose ( ). It's like the word "revenge/ in the following sentence He killed him in revenge (qatalahu-n-tiqaman/ ).

So would I be right to undderstand that it qualifies the "ma malakat aymanukum" and it would means something like "those your are rightfully entitled to by virtue of God's scripture"?

Thanks.

Salaam

Q_student

4-24 ----------seek them with your money , with an aim to maintain chastity, not fornicating, you must pay them their wages before you touch them , and when you have enjoyed them, there is no sin upon you what you both agree to. God is knowledgeable wise.

What I understand out of this is that "Prostitution is allowed" because,

commandment.

You are to seek her with your money[/size

CONGRATULATIONS TO RED LIGHT AREA COMMUNITY FOR THIS QURANIC CERTIFICATE.
Regards

savage_carrot

Q_student's post reminded me of this thread.

Samia

So would I be right to undderstand that it qualifies the "ma malakat aymanukum" and it would means something like "those your are rightfully entitled to by virtue of God's scripture"?

Thanks.

Salaam

Yes, it's about MMA and I believe your understanding is similar to what I understand too.

siki

Q_student's post reminded me of this thread.

Nadia!

salam,

D Good God, wasn't I pleasantly surprised (and a little ashamed) when I found you oldies much more civilised than what we are as a bunch today. You guys definitely had a higher threshold of tolerance for any non conforming understanding, and debated controversial issues with respect and open mind.

About the issue, what I found amazing was, "Not a single one of those few hundred posts" mentioned 4-24. Which in reality, is the commandment packed with evidence in favour of paid sex. On the other hand every one hoping over 24-33, which instead, cautions the guardian to desist forcing a young one for it, in case she doesn't want to.

peace

siki

siki

Thelps,

In your explanation of 24-33,

you say , "and the sexually disabled , out of these are seeking MMA".

where is the sexually disabled word in aya 24-33? Or as you have imagined MMA to be sexually disabled, so any one looking for them , would automatically be sexually disabled one?
Where is the daughter word in 24-33?
And if they(fatayat) are forced for a sexless marriage, then why would be god forgiving most merciful?
siki

Thelps!

I am expecting answers for my above queries, please! apecially for the 3rd one.

siki

savage_carrot

Salam siki,

There are highs and lows on this forum.

I haven't studied the "prostitution is ok" scenario in the quran yet, but when I do, I'll def add my two bits.

Fahad1

Yes he could. Does that somehow show that my understanding is un-Quranic?

Not at all, Bro, It must be God who could not fore see the repercussions arising from his commandment.

Ok, so you agree that my understanding is Quranic and you have no Quranic evidence against it. If so, we will move on to the rest of my summary, ok?

How about reading an even closer Koranic version ?.... ... recently posted by me,,,, stating ," Quran encourages prostitution"

We will come to that afterward.

Q_student

Salam siki,

There are highs and lows on this forum.

I haven't studied the "prostitution is ok" scenario in the quran yet, but when I do, I'll def add my two bits.

Peace
Probably Prostituites will be "rewarded " for high virtue job on the Day of Judgement.
Siki will also get share out of it.
Regards

almarh0m

Peace Q_s

Peace
Probably Prostituites will be "rewarded " for high virtue job on the Day of Judgement.
Siki will also get share out of it.
Regards

I thought the "prostitutes" are well rewarded already in this world , do you think they will be sentenced to "Heaven" as well ? By the way , after 30 pages of discussions , are we any closer to " The Definition of Marriage and whether sex is permitted prior to it " ?

Peace

almarh0m

Q_student

Peace Q_s

I thought the "prostitutes" are well rewarded already in this world , do you think they will be sentenced to "Heaven" as well ? By the way , after 30 pages of discussions , are we any closer to " The Definition of Marriage and whether sex is permitted prior to it " ?

Peace

almarh0m

Peace dear
After 30 pages Siki's conclusion is well placed above. He has issued Quranic certificate for Prostitution.
Regards

almarh0m

Peace Q_s

Peace dear
After 30 pages Siki's conclusion is well placed above. He has issued Quranic certificate for Prostitution.
Regards

Just when I thought Bukhari , Muslim , Abu Dawood et al have been discarded , no wonder that "Mu'tah Marriage" is alive and well in Saudi Arabia . When I was in Saudi , I was offered to marry up to 4 women at once at defferent "Rate of Dowry/AJR" , each woman I could have married from one week to a few months or forever . The differences in 'Rates of AJR' depends on where the women came from , Egyptian commanded 3000 Saudi Riyal , various south Asian women and South East Asian women range from 600 SA Riyal to 2500 . curiously , some African women are as cheap as some Indonesian from certain parts , so are the women from the Philippines . I was told by my local guides and friends that the different rates are determined by " How Much it cost " these women to get to Saudi Arabia and back to their countries . As for the Egyptian women and othe Arab women , they cost 3000 SAR purely because they are Arabs . ( These women can be found at the many supposedly "secret refuges" for Umrah'Hajj Overstayers or Illegal Migrants ) .

Peace

almarhom

huruf

So would I be right to undderstand that it qualifies the "ma malakat aymanukum" and it would means something like "those your are rightfully entitled to by virtue of God's scripture"?

Thanks.

Salaam

Yes, it's about MMA and I believe your understanding is similar to what I understand too.

This quote refers to the mention of mma at the beginning of 4.24.

So what would this "God's scripture" (kitaaba-llahi) be?

I think some of you have been talking about this aspect or something akin in a number of posts. Excuse me if I ask this now concerning this particular phrase.

Salaam

raedsalah

Peace

I've been thinking about sex before marriage for a while in terms of whether it is morally acceptable in my mind/heart.
I concluded yes.

I looked into the Quran and past discussions in the free-minds forum and conlcuded that that which the Quran lables as married would pretty much conform to a relationship between a couple. Meaning that the couple can have sex. Basically i think most of today's societie's defenition of "couple" would be pretty much the same as the Quran's defenition of "marriage".

My understanding of fornication (sex between unmarried people) is something like a one night stand.

I would be very interested in your views.

If i have missed anything please let me know.

Thanks,
peace