Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!

siki

Q_student's post reminded me of this thread.

Nadia!

salam,

D Good God, wasn't I pleasantly surprised (and a little ashamed) when I found you oldies much more civilised than what we are as a bunch today. You guys definitely had a higher threshold of tolerance for any non conforming understanding, and debated controversial issues with respect and open mind.

About the issue, what I found amazing was, "Not a single one of those few hundred posts" mentioned 4-24. Which in reality, is the commandment packed with evidence in favour of paid sex. On the other hand every one hoping over 24-33, which instead, cautions the guardian to desist forcing a young one for it, in case she doesn't want to.

peace

siki

siki

Thelps,

In your explanation of 24-33,

you say , "and the sexually disabled , out of these are seeking MMA".

where is the sexually disabled word in aya 24-33? Or as you have imagined MMA to be sexually disabled, so any one looking for them , would automatically be sexually disabled one?
Where is the daughter word in 24-33?
And if they(fatayat) are forced for a sexless marriage, then why would be god forgiving most merciful?
siki

Thelps!

I am expecting answers for my above queries, please! apecially for the 3rd one.

siki

savage_carrot

Salam siki,

There are highs and lows on this forum.

I haven't studied the "prostitution is ok" scenario in the quran yet, but when I do, I'll def add my two bits.

Fahad1

Yes he could. Does that somehow show that my understanding is un-Quranic?

Not at all, Bro, It must be God who could not fore see the repercussions arising from his commandment.

Ok, so you agree that my understanding is Quranic and you have no Quranic evidence against it. If so, we will move on to the rest of my summary, ok?

How about reading an even closer Koranic version ?.... ... recently posted by me,,,, stating ," Quran encourages prostitution"

We will come to that afterward.

Q_student

Salam siki,

There are highs and lows on this forum.

I haven't studied the "prostitution is ok" scenario in the quran yet, but when I do, I'll def add my two bits.

Peace
Probably Prostituites will be "rewarded " for high virtue job on the Day of Judgement.
Siki will also get share out of it.
Regards

almarh0m

Peace Q_s

Peace
Probably Prostituites will be "rewarded " for high virtue job on the Day of Judgement.
Siki will also get share out of it.
Regards

I thought the "prostitutes" are well rewarded already in this world , do you think they will be sentenced to "Heaven" as well ? By the way , after 30 pages of discussions , are we any closer to " The Definition of Marriage and whether sex is permitted prior to it " ?

Peace

almarh0m

Q_student

Peace Q_s

I thought the "prostitutes" are well rewarded already in this world , do you think they will be sentenced to "Heaven" as well ? By the way , after 30 pages of discussions , are we any closer to " The Definition of Marriage and whether sex is permitted prior to it " ?

Peace

almarh0m

Peace dear
After 30 pages Siki's conclusion is well placed above. He has issued Quranic certificate for Prostitution.
Regards

almarh0m

Peace Q_s

Peace dear
After 30 pages Siki's conclusion is well placed above. He has issued Quranic certificate for Prostitution.
Regards

Just when I thought Bukhari , Muslim , Abu Dawood et al have been discarded , no wonder that "Mu'tah Marriage" is alive and well in Saudi Arabia . When I was in Saudi , I was offered to marry up to 4 women at once at defferent "Rate of Dowry/AJR" , each woman I could have married from one week to a few months or forever . The differences in 'Rates of AJR' depends on where the women came from , Egyptian commanded 3000 Saudi Riyal , various south Asian women and South East Asian women range from 600 SA Riyal to 2500 . curiously , some African women are as cheap as some Indonesian from certain parts , so are the women from the Philippines . I was told by my local guides and friends that the different rates are determined by " How Much it cost " these women to get to Saudi Arabia and back to their countries . As for the Egyptian women and othe Arab women , they cost 3000 SAR purely because they are Arabs . ( These women can be found at the many supposedly "secret refuges" for Umrah'Hajj Overstayers or Illegal Migrants ) .

Peace

almarhom

huruf

So would I be right to undderstand that it qualifies the "ma malakat aymanukum" and it would means something like "those your are rightfully entitled to by virtue of God's scripture"?

Thanks.

Salaam

Yes, it's about MMA and I believe your understanding is similar to what I understand too.

This quote refers to the mention of mma at the beginning of 4.24.

So what would this "God's scripture" (kitaaba-llahi) be?

I think some of you have been talking about this aspect or something akin in a number of posts. Excuse me if I ask this now concerning this particular phrase.

Salaam

raedsalah

Peace

I've been thinking about sex before marriage for a while in terms of whether it is morally acceptable in my mind/heart.
I concluded yes.

I looked into the Quran and past discussions in the free-minds forum and conlcuded that that which the Quran lables as married would pretty much conform to a relationship between a couple. Meaning that the couple can have sex. Basically i think most of today's societie's defenition of "couple" would be pretty much the same as the Quran's defenition of "marriage".

My understanding of fornication (sex between unmarried people) is something like a one night stand.

I would be very interested in your views.

If i have missed anything please let me know.

Thanks,
peace

Q_student

Peace Q_s

Just when I thought Bukhari , Muslim , Abu Dawood et al have been discarded , no wonder that "Mu'tah Marriage" is alive and well in Saudi Arabia . When I was in Saudi , I was offered to marry up to 4 women at once at defferent "Rate of Dowry/AJR" , each woman I could have married from one week to a few months or forever . The differences in 'Rates of AJR' depends on where the women came from , Egyptian commanded 3000 Saudi Riyal , various south Asian women and South East Asian women range from 600 SA Riyal to 2500 . curiously , some African women are as cheap as some Indonesian from certain parts , so are the women from the Philippines . I was told by my local guides and friends that the different rates are determined by " How Much it cost " these women to get to Saudi Arabia and back to their countries . As for the Egyptian women and othe Arab women , they cost 3000 SAR purely because they are Arabs . ( These women can be found at the many supposedly "secret refuges" for Umrah'Hajj Overstayers or Illegal Migrants ) .

Peace

almarhom

Peace
What has this story to do with Quran ?
Regards

almarh0m

Peace Q_s

Peace
What has this story to do with Quran ?
Regards

Please read 'The Topic' of the thread , where do you think those"Muslims" in Saudi Arabia got the idea from , if not from their interpretation of the Qur'an regarding paying "The AJR" and having sex with the women of their choice ?

Peace

almarh0m

p.s . I was shocked too when I first found out the goings on in the " Holy Land " and the vices there .

Q_student

Peace Q_s

Please read 'The Topic' of the thread , where do you think those"Muslims" in Saudi Arabia got the idea from , if not from their interpretation of the Qur'an regarding paying "The AJR" and having sex with the women of their choice ?

Peace

almarh0m

p.s . I was shocked too when I first found out the goings on in the " Holy Land " and the vices there .

Peace Brother
Everyone knows those are Hadithi group. What we have to do with them? Why should not quote them in interpretation of the Quran.
Secondly if someone is doing wrong ,he is answerable for his deeds ,not we. We are answerable only for what we do. No??

Regards

Samia

This quote refers to the mention of mma at the beginning of 4.24.

So what would this "God's scripture" (kitaaba-llahi) be?

I think some of you have been talking about this aspect or something akin in a number of posts. Excuse me if I ask this now concerning this particular phrase.

Salaam

As far as I know, kitaab does not mean book in the sense we know. It means a compilation of related rules/issues concerning a specific topic, for example (kitabul mawt) contains everything related to death. In the hadith compiled by Muslim, you find that it's organized in "utub" kitabul 3uqood (saying on contracts), kitabul 7aiD (sayings on menustration)..etc,and it's thus compiled because of the belief that those sayings/hadiths are rules and regulations. Kitabullah in a context is the the compilation of God's laws concerning this context.
In this verse, my understanding is that kitaballah is not just about MMA, but about the case from the beginning of the verse prohibited are the sexually enabled except those whom you possess by your oath/ agree to wed you; this is in accordance with the law of God concerning marriage in this context.

Samia

Peace Q_s

Just when I thought Bukhari , Muslim , Abu Dawood et al have been discarded , no wonder that "Mu'tah Marriage" is alive and well in Saudi Arabia . When I was in Saudi , I was offered to marry up to 4 women at once at defferent "Rate of Dowry/AJR" , each woman I could have married from one week to a few months or forever . The differences in 'Rates of AJR' depends on where the women came from , Egyptian commanded 3000 Saudi Riyal , various south Asian women and South East Asian women range from 600 SA Riyal to 2500 . curiously , some African women are as cheap as some Indonesian from certain parts , so are the women from the Philippines . I was told by my local guides and friends that the different rates are determined by " How Much it cost " these women to get to Saudi Arabia and back to their countries . As for the Egyptian women and othe Arab women , they cost 3000 SAR purely because they are Arabs . ( These women can be found at the many supposedly "secret refuges" for Umrah'Hajj Overstayers or Illegal Migrants ) .

Peace

almarhom

This is what you expect when ajr is understood as a payment for sexual services. Not only that, but the shari3a law does not oblige the husband to take care of the sick wife who cannot render this service, nor would he be blamed if he returns the "goods" to the "seller" in such circumstances. The society is so accustomed to this that even her family will not blame the husband if he decides to marry another wife. And forget about sakeena (safety), mawadda or ra7ma (love and compassion).

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

Normally no one will accuse a sexually disabled person for zina, therefore here the term muhsanat (sexually able women) is used.

"SEXUALLY IMMUNE" CANNOT MEAN "SEXUALLY ABLE" brickwall brickwall brickwall

Sexually immune can only mean "those whom you cannot have sex with".

If you are immune from flu, it cannot mean that you are able to get flu, but it will mean that you cannot get flu.

Mohsanaat cannot mean immune, because then it would mean that "fatayaat" in 425 are non-immune because mohsanaat are contrasted with fatayaat in that sign. This would result in a nonsensical interpretation.

We have to figure out the meaning according to the context of the god's words.

THE ONLY THING DIFFERENT BETWEEN MOHSANAAT AND FATAYAAT ACCORDING TO CONTEXT OF 425 IS PERMISSION OF GUARDIAN.

Therefore, the only possible meaning would be

Mohsanaat = independent women (not requiring permission of guardian)
Fatayaat = dependent women (requiring permission of guardian)

All other meanings will result in contradiction in the god's words or a nonsensical interpretation.

nimnimak_11

Peace Q_s

Just when I thought Bukhari , Muslim , Abu Dawood et al have been discarded , no wonder that "Mu'tah Marriage" is alive and well in Saudi Arabia . When I was in Saudi , I was offered to marry up to 4 women at once at defferent "Rate of Dowry/AJR" , each woman I could have married from one week to a few months or forever . The differences in 'Rates of AJR' depends on where the women came from , Egyptian commanded 3000 Saudi Riyal , various south Asian women and South East Asian women range from 600 SA Riyal to 2500 . curiously , some African women are as cheap as some Indonesian from certain parts , so are the women from the Philippines . I was told by my local guides and friends that the different rates are determined by " How Much it cost " these women to get to Saudi Arabia and back to their countries . As for the Egyptian women and othe Arab women , they cost 3000 SAR purely because they are Arabs . ( These women can be found at the many supposedly "secret refuges" for Umrah'Hajj Overstayers or Illegal Migrants ) .

Peace

almarhom

peace

Thanks for sharing. I did not expect it to be that bad over there (

It annoys when they put a financial price on women. Even more annoying when the criteria is where the women is from brickwall
It's obvious that the purpose of this ajr and so called marriage is to just have illicite sex. They might as well go after protitutes if they can't be bothered to go after love and affection

3021 From His signs is that He created for you mates from yourselves that you may reside with them, and He placed between you affection and compassion. In that are signs for a people who reflect.

brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall

nimnimak_11

This is what you expect when ajr is understood as a payment for sexual services. Not only that, but the shari3a law does not oblige the husband to take care of the sick wife who cannot render this service, nor would he be blamed if he returns the "goods" to the "seller" in such circumstances. The society is so accustomed to this that even her family will not blame the husband if he decides to marry another wife. And forget about sakeena (safety), mawadda or ra7ma (love and compassion).

Do they not have hearts???
Are the majority like this.
nope nope nope

nimnimak_11

Mmmmmmm I'll give you a summary of my understanding so far (excluding the fatayaat category)

Nikah contract Starting a relationship (dating/going out etc.) with a believer*. This contract does not have to be written but at least 2 people must know about this relationship (2 men or 1 man and 2 women)

Ajr This is delibrately left open for interpretation by God (IMO) thus it can be money as almarh0m pointed to in his story or even a box of chocolates.

*You must have a good intention for this relationship (nikah)

424 The women who are already married, except those whom you have contractual rights, God's book is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex

Thus in Almarh0m's story, the way the women are offered is to my understanding purely a sexual one which is quranically wrong for nikah i think. I think that this is clear in our hearts also.

peace

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

Samia's and Tlepsh's definition of mohsanaat = "sexually able" or "sexually immune" (which are actually opposite terms) will result in utter/total/complete/absolute nonsense. Here is how it will become utter nonsense

Firstly, "sexually immune" does not mean "sexually able" but means "unable to have sex".

Secondly, according to 425, mohsanaat are contrasted with fatayaat so if mohsanaat = sexually able, then fatayaat = unable to have sex, and the MMA from the fatayaat will also be unable to have sex. But it goes on to say that once MMA from fatayaat get married after permission of their guardians and they are given their ujoor, then they become mohsanaat. Now if we use the definition of "sexually able" for mohsanaat here, it would mean that "the women who are unable to have sex" will MAGICALLY become "sexually able" once they get married and given ujoor.

WOW, CURE OF SEXUAL IMPOTENCE/FRIGIDITY IS "GET MARRIED AND GET AJR". brickwall brickwall brickwall

Deserves Nobel Prize, doesn't it?