Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Salam siki,
There are highs and lows on this forum.
I haven't studied the "prostitution is ok" scenario in the quran yet, but when I do, I'll def add my two bits.
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Yes he could. Does that somehow show that my understanding is un-Quranic?
Not at all, Bro, It must be God who could not fore see the repercussions arising from his commandment.
Ok, so you agree that my understanding is Quranic and you have no Quranic evidence against it. If so, we will move on to the rest of my summary, ok?
How about reading an even closer Koranic version ?.... ... recently posted by me,,,, stating ," Quran encourages prostitution"
We will come to that afterward.
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Salam siki,
There are highs and lows on this forum.
I haven't studied the "prostitution is ok" scenario in the quran yet, but when I do, I'll def add my two bits.
Peace
Probably Prostituites will be "rewarded " for high virtue job on the Day of Judgement.
Siki will also get share out of it.
Regards -
Peace Q_s
Peace
Probably Prostituites will be "rewarded " for high virtue job on the Day of Judgement.
Siki will also get share out of it.
RegardsI thought the "prostitutes" are well rewarded already in this world , do you think they will be sentenced to "Heaven" as well ? By the way , after 30 pages of discussions , are we any closer to " The Definition of Marriage and whether sex is permitted prior to it " ?
Peace
almarh0m
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Peace Q_s
I thought the "prostitutes" are well rewarded already in this world , do you think they will be sentenced to "Heaven" as well ? By the way , after 30 pages of discussions , are we any closer to " The Definition of Marriage and whether sex is permitted prior to it " ?
Peace
almarh0m
Peace dear
After 30 pages Siki's conclusion is well placed above. He has issued Quranic certificate for Prostitution.
Regards -
Peace Q_s
Peace dear
After 30 pages Siki's conclusion is well placed above. He has issued Quranic certificate for Prostitution.
RegardsJust when I thought Bukhari , Muslim , Abu Dawood et al have been discarded , no wonder that "Mu'tah Marriage" is alive and well in Saudi Arabia . When I was in Saudi , I was offered to marry up to 4 women at once at defferent "Rate of Dowry/AJR" , each woman I could have married from one week to a few months or forever . The differences in 'Rates of AJR' depends on where the women came from , Egyptian commanded 3000 Saudi Riyal , various south Asian women and South East Asian women range from 600 SA Riyal to 2500 . curiously , some African women are as cheap as some Indonesian from certain parts , so are the women from the Philippines . I was told by my local guides and friends that the different rates are determined by " How Much it cost " these women to get to Saudi Arabia and back to their countries . As for the Egyptian women and othe Arab women , they cost 3000 SAR purely because they are Arabs . ( These women can be found at the many supposedly "secret refuges" for Umrah'Hajj Overstayers or Illegal Migrants ) .
Peace
almarhom
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So would I be right to undderstand that it qualifies the "ma malakat aymanukum" and it would means something like "those your are rightfully entitled to by virtue of God's scripture"?
Thanks.
Salaam
Yes, it's about MMA and I believe your understanding is similar to what I understand too.
This quote refers to the mention of mma at the beginning of 4.24.
So what would this "God's scripture" (kitaaba-llahi) be?
I think some of you have been talking about this aspect or something akin in a number of posts. Excuse me if I ask this now concerning this particular phrase.
Salaam
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Peace
I've been thinking about sex before marriage for a while in terms of whether it is morally acceptable in my mind/heart.
I concluded yes.I looked into the Quran and past discussions in the free-minds forum and conlcuded that that which the Quran lables as married would pretty much conform to a relationship between a couple. Meaning that the couple can have sex. Basically i think most of today's societie's defenition of "couple" would be pretty much the same as the Quran's defenition of "marriage".
My understanding of fornication (sex between unmarried people) is something like a one night stand.
I would be very interested in your views.
If i have missed anything please let me know.
Thanks,
peace -
Peace Q_s
Just when I thought Bukhari , Muslim , Abu Dawood et al have been discarded , no wonder that "Mu'tah Marriage" is alive and well in Saudi Arabia . When I was in Saudi , I was offered to marry up to 4 women at once at defferent "Rate of Dowry/AJR" , each woman I could have married from one week to a few months or forever . The differences in 'Rates of AJR' depends on where the women came from , Egyptian commanded 3000 Saudi Riyal , various south Asian women and South East Asian women range from 600 SA Riyal to 2500 . curiously , some African women are as cheap as some Indonesian from certain parts , so are the women from the Philippines . I was told by my local guides and friends that the different rates are determined by " How Much it cost " these women to get to Saudi Arabia and back to their countries . As for the Egyptian women and othe Arab women , they cost 3000 SAR purely because they are Arabs . ( These women can be found at the many supposedly "secret refuges" for Umrah'Hajj Overstayers or Illegal Migrants ) .
Peace
almarhom
Peace
What has this story to do with Quran ?
Regards -
Peace Q_s
Peace
What has this story to do with Quran ?
RegardsPlease read 'The Topic' of the thread , where do you think those"Muslims" in Saudi Arabia got the idea from , if not from their interpretation of the Qur'an regarding paying "The AJR" and having sex with the women of their choice ?
Peace
almarh0m
p.s . I was shocked too when I first found out the goings on in the " Holy Land " and the vices there .
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Peace Q_s
Please read 'The Topic' of the thread , where do you think those"Muslims" in Saudi Arabia got the idea from , if not from their interpretation of the Qur'an regarding paying "The AJR" and having sex with the women of their choice ?
Peace
almarh0m
p.s . I was shocked too when I first found out the goings on in the " Holy Land " and the vices there .
Peace Brother
Everyone knows those are Hadithi group. What we have to do with them? Why should not quote them in interpretation of the Quran.
Secondly if someone is doing wrong ,he is answerable for his deeds ,not we. We are answerable only for what we do. No??Regards
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This quote refers to the mention of mma at the beginning of 4.24.
So what would this "God's scripture" (kitaaba-llahi) be?
I think some of you have been talking about this aspect or something akin in a number of posts. Excuse me if I ask this now concerning this particular phrase.
Salaam
As far as I know, kitaab does not mean book in the sense we know. It means a compilation of related rules/issues concerning a specific topic, for example (kitabul mawt) contains everything related to death. In the hadith compiled by Muslim, you find that it's organized in "utub" kitabul 3uqood (saying on contracts), kitabul 7aiD (sayings on menustration)..etc,and it's thus compiled because of the belief that those sayings/hadiths are rules and regulations. Kitabullah in a context is the the compilation of God's laws concerning this context.
In this verse, my understanding is that kitaballah is not just about MMA, but about the case from the beginning of the verse prohibited are the sexually enabled except those whom you possess by your oath/ agree to wed you; this is in accordance with the law of God concerning marriage in this context. -
Peace Q_s
Just when I thought Bukhari , Muslim , Abu Dawood et al have been discarded , no wonder that "Mu'tah Marriage" is alive and well in Saudi Arabia . When I was in Saudi , I was offered to marry up to 4 women at once at defferent "Rate of Dowry/AJR" , each woman I could have married from one week to a few months or forever . The differences in 'Rates of AJR' depends on where the women came from , Egyptian commanded 3000 Saudi Riyal , various south Asian women and South East Asian women range from 600 SA Riyal to 2500 . curiously , some African women are as cheap as some Indonesian from certain parts , so are the women from the Philippines . I was told by my local guides and friends that the different rates are determined by " How Much it cost " these women to get to Saudi Arabia and back to their countries . As for the Egyptian women and othe Arab women , they cost 3000 SAR purely because they are Arabs . ( These women can be found at the many supposedly "secret refuges" for Umrah'Hajj Overstayers or Illegal Migrants ) .
Peace
almarhom
This is what you expect when ajr is understood as a payment for sexual services. Not only that, but the shari3a law does not oblige the husband to take care of the sick wife who cannot render this service, nor would he be blamed if he returns the "goods" to the "seller" in such circumstances. The society is so accustomed to this that even her family will not blame the husband if he decides to marry another wife. And forget about sakeena (safety), mawadda or ra7ma (love and compassion).
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Peace everyone,
Normally no one will accuse a sexually disabled person for zina, therefore here the term muhsanat (sexually able women) is used.
"SEXUALLY IMMUNE" CANNOT MEAN "SEXUALLY ABLE" brickwall brickwall brickwall
Sexually immune can only mean "those whom you cannot have sex with".
If you are immune from flu, it cannot mean that you are able to get flu, but it will mean that you cannot get flu.
Mohsanaat cannot mean immune, because then it would mean that "fatayaat" in 425 are non-immune because mohsanaat are contrasted with fatayaat in that sign. This would result in a nonsensical interpretation.
We have to figure out the meaning according to the context of the god's words.
THE ONLY THING DIFFERENT BETWEEN MOHSANAAT AND FATAYAAT ACCORDING TO CONTEXT OF 425 IS PERMISSION OF GUARDIAN.
Therefore, the only possible meaning would be
Mohsanaat = independent women (not requiring permission of guardian)
Fatayaat = dependent women (requiring permission of guardian)All other meanings will result in contradiction in the god's words or a nonsensical interpretation.
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Peace Q_s
Just when I thought Bukhari , Muslim , Abu Dawood et al have been discarded , no wonder that "Mu'tah Marriage" is alive and well in Saudi Arabia . When I was in Saudi , I was offered to marry up to 4 women at once at defferent "Rate of Dowry/AJR" , each woman I could have married from one week to a few months or forever . The differences in 'Rates of AJR' depends on where the women came from , Egyptian commanded 3000 Saudi Riyal , various south Asian women and South East Asian women range from 600 SA Riyal to 2500 . curiously , some African women are as cheap as some Indonesian from certain parts , so are the women from the Philippines . I was told by my local guides and friends that the different rates are determined by " How Much it cost " these women to get to Saudi Arabia and back to their countries . As for the Egyptian women and othe Arab women , they cost 3000 SAR purely because they are Arabs . ( These women can be found at the many supposedly "secret refuges" for Umrah'Hajj Overstayers or Illegal Migrants ) .
Peace
almarhom
peace
Thanks for sharing. I did not expect it to be that bad over there (
It annoys when they put a financial price on women. Even more annoying when the criteria is where the women is from brickwall
It's obvious that the purpose of this ajr and so called marriage is to just have illicite sex. They might as well go after protitutes if they can't be bothered to go after love and affection3021 From His signs is that He created for you mates from yourselves that you may reside with them, and He placed between you affection and compassion. In that are signs for a people who reflect.
brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall
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This is what you expect when ajr is understood as a payment for sexual services. Not only that, but the shari3a law does not oblige the husband to take care of the sick wife who cannot render this service, nor would he be blamed if he returns the "goods" to the "seller" in such circumstances. The society is so accustomed to this that even her family will not blame the husband if he decides to marry another wife. And forget about sakeena (safety), mawadda or ra7ma (love and compassion).
Do they not have hearts???
Are the majority like this.
nope nope nope -
Mmmmmmm I'll give you a summary of my understanding so far (excluding the fatayaat category)
Nikah contract Starting a relationship (dating/going out etc.) with a believer*. This contract does not have to be written but at least 2 people must know about this relationship (2 men or 1 man and 2 women)
Ajr This is delibrately left open for interpretation by God (IMO) thus it can be money as almarh0m pointed to in his story or even a box of chocolates.
*You must have a good intention for this relationship (nikah)
424 The women who are already married, except those whom you have contractual rights, God's book is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex
Thus in Almarh0m's story, the way the women are offered is to my understanding purely a sexual one which is quranically wrong for nikah i think. I think that this is clear in our hearts also.
peace
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Peace everyone,
Samia's and Tlepsh's definition of mohsanaat = "sexually able" or "sexually immune" (which are actually opposite terms) will result in utter/total/complete/absolute nonsense. Here is how it will become utter nonsense
Firstly, "sexually immune" does not mean "sexually able" but means "unable to have sex".
Secondly, according to 425, mohsanaat are contrasted with fatayaat so if mohsanaat = sexually able, then fatayaat = unable to have sex, and the MMA from the fatayaat will also be unable to have sex. But it goes on to say that once MMA from fatayaat get married after permission of their guardians and they are given their ujoor, then they become mohsanaat. Now if we use the definition of "sexually able" for mohsanaat here, it would mean that "the women who are unable to have sex" will MAGICALLY become "sexually able" once they get married and given ujoor.
WOW, CURE OF SEXUAL IMPOTENCE/FRIGIDITY IS "GET MARRIED AND GET AJR". brickwall brickwall brickwall
Deserves Nobel Prize, doesn't it?
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Peace truthseeker
I almost missed this post (I'm glad i went back and looked for it)ITS VALUE DOES NOT MATTER. 2282 does not say that record only those debts that have value. DAYN refers to ANYTHING OWED.
DYN in 2282 does not refer to "something owed that is of value" but refers to anything owed or any debt.
You would be right only if 2282 had said "if you owe anything of value", and then the god wiould have defined the value also to avoid confusion in 2282, but it does not say that.
Interesting
But consider this
If my friend lent a pen to me and i say do you want me to write this down and he says no, surely there is no sin upon me or him. Equally if i lent him a pen and i don't ask of him to write this down then....Interestingly though this might mean that If my friend lent me a pen, I should at least ask him if he wants this to be written down or not as i don't know how important the pen is to him or how important it is for him to have it back. But would he not say so himself??? thus making no sin for me to assume that he is ok wihout it written or EVEN witnessed?
What do you think?
2237 refers to when ajr has been specified/stipulated but not yet paid, which would automatically require a written contract. The "oqdat al-nikah" in this sign refers to this written contract. It is a written contract because ajr has been specified/stipulated but not yet paid, so it is owed and comes under DYN.
In my other post which you have not yet commented on, I mentioned the understanding that there is no written contract if AJR is paid on the spot at the time of nikah, but if it is not given at time of nikah, then the written contract is compulsory.
Mmmmm
I sort of agree.If i miss anything from your posts, i am honestly sorry. I will look after this post and address anything i may have missed. If i still fail to do so, please let me know.
Proposal is called "khitbaat al-nisaa" according to 2235, and because it can be public or secret, no witnesses needed. I never said that "proposal" comes under Ba-Ya-Ayn. You are misquoting me here, and that is one thing which I really really really don't like.
I apologise and thank you for not lashing out as some might do
3134 The ones who spend in prosperity and adversity, repress anger, and pardon the people; God loves the good doers
bravo peaceOath to get married is the next step after "proposal". Once you take an oath in front of the god to get married then she becomes your MMA. This oath to get married (not the proposal), will come under Ba-Ya-Ayn and will need one witness or two witnesses depending on condition of the husband (see my other post on 2282 that you haven't commented on for how many witnesses).
But once the proposal is agreed, the oath follows automatically. If i propose and she agrees, i automatically have commited my self thus an oath before God as God is aware of my mind. It does not specify how you have to take the oath to my knowledge.
I did not comment on the number of witnesses because my intention was to say that when people know that your in a relationship, it's usually more than 4 or 5 if you don't plan on keeping it a secret. But i agree with what you say on this issue at the moment based on 2282
424 ..................... As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
It clearly mentions "mutual agreement"/"tardaitum".
You can argue that the mutual agreement is AFTER ajr is given as obligation but the end result will be the same. For example, you give her some sand as ajr and AFTER you gave the sand she does not agree, so then "there is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation" as per 424
Ok
If i give her sand and she accepts it, then i could say that i have given her her ajr as nothing in the Quran refutes this to my knowledge. But this is wrong in the heart thus ??? hmm
However, I can buy her a box of chocolates which she happily accepts and call this ajr and this would be ok in my heart knowing that my intention is pure when proposing nikah. Thus a box of chocolates as ajr is ok to me.
Can you refute this with reason truthseeker?
Of course what you give depends upon your means as clearly mentioned in 2236
2236 There is no sin upon you if you divorce the women before having sexual intercourse with them, or before stipulating/specifying the stipulation/settlement for them. Let them have recompense, the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means. Recompense which is in goodness, a responsibility for those in kindness.
I'm not sure if it's refering to ajr here. It talks of recompense which could be other than ajr
I repeat that just taking her out would not be ajr unless you also let her know that this will be her ajr for nikah, and then she agrees to it per 424. For example, you take her out and let her know that this is her ajr for marriage and then after you take her out she disagrees, then you can settle it with mutual agreement as per 424
Everything related to nikah/marriage has to be with mutual agreement. This is common sense. For example, you cannot force your wife into having sex with you when she is not feeling like having sex, thereby raping her. You cannot also just give her a fistful of sand as ajr, even though she disagrees to it, and then think your obligation is fulfilled
As the Quran has left ajr open to interpretation and IMO makes clear in 424 that ajr is not something you mutually agree to before you give it, i get the feeling that you don't have to discuss ajr with the person you intend to be with. Thus you can give her a gift (box of chocolates) and that's ajr.
Can you disprove this through a scenario or the Quran via the heart and reason?
I look forward to your reply
peace
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peace
Just wanted to add that
I don't think that giving a girl a gift (chocolates) or even (?1000000) as ajr should mean that she can now have sex with me. This just dosn't make sense and my heart disagrees.
Something else must click in a relationship before both sides are comfortable enough to have sex.
I keep thinking that ajr is something completely different to what we are discussing and understanding it to be.