Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!

huruf

So would I be right to undderstand that it qualifies the "ma malakat aymanukum" and it would means something like "those your are rightfully entitled to by virtue of God's scripture"?

Thanks.

Salaam

Yes, it's about MMA and I believe your understanding is similar to what I understand too.

This quote refers to the mention of mma at the beginning of 4.24.

So what would this "God's scripture" (kitaaba-llahi) be?

I think some of you have been talking about this aspect or something akin in a number of posts. Excuse me if I ask this now concerning this particular phrase.

Salaam

raedsalah

Peace

I've been thinking about sex before marriage for a while in terms of whether it is morally acceptable in my mind/heart.
I concluded yes.

I looked into the Quran and past discussions in the free-minds forum and conlcuded that that which the Quran lables as married would pretty much conform to a relationship between a couple. Meaning that the couple can have sex. Basically i think most of today's societie's defenition of "couple" would be pretty much the same as the Quran's defenition of "marriage".

My understanding of fornication (sex between unmarried people) is something like a one night stand.

I would be very interested in your views.

If i have missed anything please let me know.

Thanks,
peace

Q_student

Peace Q_s

Just when I thought Bukhari , Muslim , Abu Dawood et al have been discarded , no wonder that "Mu'tah Marriage" is alive and well in Saudi Arabia . When I was in Saudi , I was offered to marry up to 4 women at once at defferent "Rate of Dowry/AJR" , each woman I could have married from one week to a few months or forever . The differences in 'Rates of AJR' depends on where the women came from , Egyptian commanded 3000 Saudi Riyal , various south Asian women and South East Asian women range from 600 SA Riyal to 2500 . curiously , some African women are as cheap as some Indonesian from certain parts , so are the women from the Philippines . I was told by my local guides and friends that the different rates are determined by " How Much it cost " these women to get to Saudi Arabia and back to their countries . As for the Egyptian women and othe Arab women , they cost 3000 SAR purely because they are Arabs . ( These women can be found at the many supposedly "secret refuges" for Umrah'Hajj Overstayers or Illegal Migrants ) .

Peace

almarhom

Peace
What has this story to do with Quran ?
Regards

almarh0m

Peace Q_s

Peace
What has this story to do with Quran ?
Regards

Please read 'The Topic' of the thread , where do you think those"Muslims" in Saudi Arabia got the idea from , if not from their interpretation of the Qur'an regarding paying "The AJR" and having sex with the women of their choice ?

Peace

almarh0m

p.s . I was shocked too when I first found out the goings on in the " Holy Land " and the vices there .

Q_student

Peace Q_s

Please read 'The Topic' of the thread , where do you think those"Muslims" in Saudi Arabia got the idea from , if not from their interpretation of the Qur'an regarding paying "The AJR" and having sex with the women of their choice ?

Peace

almarh0m

p.s . I was shocked too when I first found out the goings on in the " Holy Land " and the vices there .

Peace Brother
Everyone knows those are Hadithi group. What we have to do with them? Why should not quote them in interpretation of the Quran.
Secondly if someone is doing wrong ,he is answerable for his deeds ,not we. We are answerable only for what we do. No??

Regards

Samia

This quote refers to the mention of mma at the beginning of 4.24.

So what would this "God's scripture" (kitaaba-llahi) be?

I think some of you have been talking about this aspect or something akin in a number of posts. Excuse me if I ask this now concerning this particular phrase.

Salaam

As far as I know, kitaab does not mean book in the sense we know. It means a compilation of related rules/issues concerning a specific topic, for example (kitabul mawt) contains everything related to death. In the hadith compiled by Muslim, you find that it's organized in "utub" kitabul 3uqood (saying on contracts), kitabul 7aiD (sayings on menustration)..etc,and it's thus compiled because of the belief that those sayings/hadiths are rules and regulations. Kitabullah in a context is the the compilation of God's laws concerning this context.
In this verse, my understanding is that kitaballah is not just about MMA, but about the case from the beginning of the verse prohibited are the sexually enabled except those whom you possess by your oath/ agree to wed you; this is in accordance with the law of God concerning marriage in this context.

Samia

Peace Q_s

Just when I thought Bukhari , Muslim , Abu Dawood et al have been discarded , no wonder that "Mu'tah Marriage" is alive and well in Saudi Arabia . When I was in Saudi , I was offered to marry up to 4 women at once at defferent "Rate of Dowry/AJR" , each woman I could have married from one week to a few months or forever . The differences in 'Rates of AJR' depends on where the women came from , Egyptian commanded 3000 Saudi Riyal , various south Asian women and South East Asian women range from 600 SA Riyal to 2500 . curiously , some African women are as cheap as some Indonesian from certain parts , so are the women from the Philippines . I was told by my local guides and friends that the different rates are determined by " How Much it cost " these women to get to Saudi Arabia and back to their countries . As for the Egyptian women and othe Arab women , they cost 3000 SAR purely because they are Arabs . ( These women can be found at the many supposedly "secret refuges" for Umrah'Hajj Overstayers or Illegal Migrants ) .

Peace

almarhom

This is what you expect when ajr is understood as a payment for sexual services. Not only that, but the shari3a law does not oblige the husband to take care of the sick wife who cannot render this service, nor would he be blamed if he returns the "goods" to the "seller" in such circumstances. The society is so accustomed to this that even her family will not blame the husband if he decides to marry another wife. And forget about sakeena (safety), mawadda or ra7ma (love and compassion).

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

Normally no one will accuse a sexually disabled person for zina, therefore here the term muhsanat (sexually able women) is used.

"SEXUALLY IMMUNE" CANNOT MEAN "SEXUALLY ABLE" brickwall brickwall brickwall

Sexually immune can only mean "those whom you cannot have sex with".

If you are immune from flu, it cannot mean that you are able to get flu, but it will mean that you cannot get flu.

Mohsanaat cannot mean immune, because then it would mean that "fatayaat" in 425 are non-immune because mohsanaat are contrasted with fatayaat in that sign. This would result in a nonsensical interpretation.

We have to figure out the meaning according to the context of the god's words.

THE ONLY THING DIFFERENT BETWEEN MOHSANAAT AND FATAYAAT ACCORDING TO CONTEXT OF 425 IS PERMISSION OF GUARDIAN.

Therefore, the only possible meaning would be

Mohsanaat = independent women (not requiring permission of guardian)
Fatayaat = dependent women (requiring permission of guardian)

All other meanings will result in contradiction in the god's words or a nonsensical interpretation.

nimnimak_11

Peace Q_s

Just when I thought Bukhari , Muslim , Abu Dawood et al have been discarded , no wonder that "Mu'tah Marriage" is alive and well in Saudi Arabia . When I was in Saudi , I was offered to marry up to 4 women at once at defferent "Rate of Dowry/AJR" , each woman I could have married from one week to a few months or forever . The differences in 'Rates of AJR' depends on where the women came from , Egyptian commanded 3000 Saudi Riyal , various south Asian women and South East Asian women range from 600 SA Riyal to 2500 . curiously , some African women are as cheap as some Indonesian from certain parts , so are the women from the Philippines . I was told by my local guides and friends that the different rates are determined by " How Much it cost " these women to get to Saudi Arabia and back to their countries . As for the Egyptian women and othe Arab women , they cost 3000 SAR purely because they are Arabs . ( These women can be found at the many supposedly "secret refuges" for Umrah'Hajj Overstayers or Illegal Migrants ) .

Peace

almarhom

peace

Thanks for sharing. I did not expect it to be that bad over there (

It annoys when they put a financial price on women. Even more annoying when the criteria is where the women is from brickwall
It's obvious that the purpose of this ajr and so called marriage is to just have illicite sex. They might as well go after protitutes if they can't be bothered to go after love and affection

3021 From His signs is that He created for you mates from yourselves that you may reside with them, and He placed between you affection and compassion. In that are signs for a people who reflect.

brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall

nimnimak_11

This is what you expect when ajr is understood as a payment for sexual services. Not only that, but the shari3a law does not oblige the husband to take care of the sick wife who cannot render this service, nor would he be blamed if he returns the "goods" to the "seller" in such circumstances. The society is so accustomed to this that even her family will not blame the husband if he decides to marry another wife. And forget about sakeena (safety), mawadda or ra7ma (love and compassion).

Do they not have hearts???
Are the majority like this.
nope nope nope

nimnimak_11

Mmmmmmm I'll give you a summary of my understanding so far (excluding the fatayaat category)

Nikah contract Starting a relationship (dating/going out etc.) with a believer*. This contract does not have to be written but at least 2 people must know about this relationship (2 men or 1 man and 2 women)

Ajr This is delibrately left open for interpretation by God (IMO) thus it can be money as almarh0m pointed to in his story or even a box of chocolates.

*You must have a good intention for this relationship (nikah)

424 The women who are already married, except those whom you have contractual rights, God's book is over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be protected and not for illicit sex

Thus in Almarh0m's story, the way the women are offered is to my understanding purely a sexual one which is quranically wrong for nikah i think. I think that this is clear in our hearts also.

peace

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

Samia's and Tlepsh's definition of mohsanaat = "sexually able" or "sexually immune" (which are actually opposite terms) will result in utter/total/complete/absolute nonsense. Here is how it will become utter nonsense

Firstly, "sexually immune" does not mean "sexually able" but means "unable to have sex".

Secondly, according to 425, mohsanaat are contrasted with fatayaat so if mohsanaat = sexually able, then fatayaat = unable to have sex, and the MMA from the fatayaat will also be unable to have sex. But it goes on to say that once MMA from fatayaat get married after permission of their guardians and they are given their ujoor, then they become mohsanaat. Now if we use the definition of "sexually able" for mohsanaat here, it would mean that "the women who are unable to have sex" will MAGICALLY become "sexually able" once they get married and given ujoor.

WOW, CURE OF SEXUAL IMPOTENCE/FRIGIDITY IS "GET MARRIED AND GET AJR". brickwall brickwall brickwall

Deserves Nobel Prize, doesn't it?

nimnimak_11

Peace truthseeker
I almost missed this post (I'm glad i went back and looked for it)

ITS VALUE DOES NOT MATTER. 2282 does not say that record only those debts that have value. DAYN refers to ANYTHING OWED.

DYN in 2282 does not refer to "something owed that is of value" but refers to anything owed or any debt.

You would be right only if 2282 had said "if you owe anything of value", and then the god wiould have defined the value also to avoid confusion in 2282, but it does not say that.

Interesting

But consider this
If my friend lent a pen to me and i say do you want me to write this down and he says no, surely there is no sin upon me or him. Equally if i lent him a pen and i don't ask of him to write this down then....

Interestingly though this might mean that If my friend lent me a pen, I should at least ask him if he wants this to be written down or not as i don't know how important the pen is to him or how important it is for him to have it back. But would he not say so himself??? thus making no sin for me to assume that he is ok wihout it written or EVEN witnessed?

What do you think?

2237 refers to when ajr has been specified/stipulated but not yet paid, which would automatically require a written contract. The "oqdat al-nikah" in this sign refers to this written contract. It is a written contract because ajr has been specified/stipulated but not yet paid, so it is owed and comes under DYN.

In my other post which you have not yet commented on, I mentioned the understanding that there is no written contract if AJR is paid on the spot at the time of nikah, but if it is not given at time of nikah, then the written contract is compulsory.

Mmmmm
I sort of agree.

If i miss anything from your posts, i am honestly sorry. I will look after this post and address anything i may have missed. If i still fail to do so, please let me know.

Proposal is called "khitbaat al-nisaa" according to 2235, and because it can be public or secret, no witnesses needed. I never said that "proposal" comes under Ba-Ya-Ayn. You are misquoting me here, and that is one thing which I really really really don't like.

I apologise and thank you for not lashing out as some might do
3134 The ones who spend in prosperity and adversity, repress anger, and pardon the people; God loves the good doers
bravo peace

Oath to get married is the next step after "proposal". Once you take an oath in front of the god to get married then she becomes your MMA. This oath to get married (not the proposal), will come under Ba-Ya-Ayn and will need one witness or two witnesses depending on condition of the husband (see my other post on 2282 that you haven't commented on for how many witnesses).

But once the proposal is agreed, the oath follows automatically. If i propose and she agrees, i automatically have commited my self thus an oath before God as God is aware of my mind. It does not specify how you have to take the oath to my knowledge.

I did not comment on the number of witnesses because my intention was to say that when people know that your in a relationship, it's usually more than 4 or 5 if you don't plan on keeping it a secret. But i agree with what you say on this issue at the moment based on 2282

424 ..................... As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

It clearly mentions "mutual agreement"/"tardaitum".

You can argue that the mutual agreement is AFTER ajr is given as obligation but the end result will be the same. For example, you give her some sand as ajr and AFTER you gave the sand she does not agree, so then "there is no sin upon you for what you agree to after the obligation" as per 424

Ok

If i give her sand and she accepts it, then i could say that i have given her her ajr as nothing in the Quran refutes this to my knowledge. But this is wrong in the heart thus ??? hmm

However, I can buy her a box of chocolates which she happily accepts and call this ajr and this would be ok in my heart knowing that my intention is pure when proposing nikah. Thus a box of chocolates as ajr is ok to me.

Can you refute this with reason truthseeker?

Of course what you give depends upon your means as clearly mentioned in 2236

2236 There is no sin upon you if you divorce the women before having sexual intercourse with them, or before stipulating/specifying the stipulation/settlement for them. Let them have recompense, the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means. Recompense which is in goodness, a responsibility for those in kindness.

I'm not sure if it's refering to ajr here. It talks of recompense which could be other than ajr

I repeat that just taking her out would not be ajr unless you also let her know that this will be her ajr for nikah, and then she agrees to it per 424. For example, you take her out and let her know that this is her ajr for marriage and then after you take her out she disagrees, then you can settle it with mutual agreement as per 424

Everything related to nikah/marriage has to be with mutual agreement. This is common sense. For example, you cannot force your wife into having sex with you when she is not feeling like having sex, thereby raping her. You cannot also just give her a fistful of sand as ajr, even though she disagrees to it, and then think your obligation is fulfilled

As the Quran has left ajr open to interpretation and IMO makes clear in 424 that ajr is not something you mutually agree to before you give it, i get the feeling that you don't have to discuss ajr with the person you intend to be with. Thus you can give her a gift (box of chocolates) and that's ajr.

Can you disprove this through a scenario or the Quran via the heart and reason?

I look forward to your reply

peace

nimnimak_11

peace

Just wanted to add that

I don't think that giving a girl a gift (chocolates) or even (?1000000) as ajr should mean that she can now have sex with me. This just dosn't make sense and my heart disagrees.

Something else must click in a relationship before both sides are comfortable enough to have sex.

I keep thinking that ajr is something completely different to what we are discussing and understanding it to be.

Samia

Peace everyone,

Samia's and Tlepsh's definition of mohsanaat = "sexually able" or "sexually immune" (which are actually opposite terms) will result in utter/total/complete/absolute nonsense. Here is how it will become utter nonsense

Truthseeker11!

Who said "sexually immune"? I revised both my posts and Tlepsh's and could not find this expression. Pleas show me where any of us said "muhsan is one who is sexually immune".
As for the term muhsan per se, yes, it means immune, and I explained how it is wrong to translate it as "protected", because this meaning (i.e protected) is used in the qur'aan and the correct pattern is used "muhassan". Please don't haste to pick on imaginary mistakes. If the address in verse 424 is to the sexually disabled/disinterested, then it's unlawful to them to marry the immune women (immune from this disability) or as Tlepsh put it (immune sexually able).

Q_student

Truthseeker11!

Who said "sexually immune"? I revised both my posts and Tlepsh's and could not find this expression. Pleas show me where any of us said "muhsan is one who is sexually immune".
As for the term muhsan per se, yes, it means immune, and I explained how it is wrong to translate it as "protected", because this meaning (i.e protected) is used in the qur'aan and the correct pattern is used "muhassan". Please don't haste to pick on imaginary mistakes. If the address in verse 424 is to the sexually disabled/disinterested, then it's unlawful to them to marry the immune women (immune from this disability) or as Tlepsh put it (immune sexually able).

Dear sister Salaam
You said

As for the term muhsan per se, yes, it means immune, and I explained how it is wrong to translate it as "protected", because this meaning (i.e protected) is used in the qur'aan and the correct pattern is used "muhassan". Please don't haste to pick on imaginary mistakes

Sister it would have been very reasonable if you had supported your claim with some evidence from the Quran.
I do not find any word "Muhassan".There is only one derivative of this form i.e "Muhassana" which is used as adjective of "villages" as being fortified. This word also is not used with reference to "women".

5914

(5914) They will never fight you in a body (in the open field); if at all they fight, they will fight in fortified strongholds, or from behind walls. They are very intense in mutual enmity. You think that they are united, whereas their hearts are divided. *25 This is because they are a people devoid of sense.

If this word is used in the Quran anywhere else please guide us.
Regards

truthseeker11

Peace Nyma,

This is the post I am referring to which you still have not commented on

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598241.msg201162#msg201162

Whenever we owe ANYTHING we are COMMANDED to have a written contract. It doesn't matter if it is a pen or a fist of sand. DYN refers to any debt or anything owed. Once again, if there was a minimum value, then the god would have specified the value.

If i give her sand and she accepts it, then i could say that i have given her her ajr as nothing in the Quran refutes this to my knowledge. But this is wrong in the heart

"and she accepts it" is mutual agreement. If she agrees to sand as ajr for the marriage then your obligation is fulfilled.

However, I can buy her a box of chocolates which she happily accepts and call this ajr and this would be ok in my heart knowing that my intention is pure when proposing nikah. Thus a box of chocolates as ajr is ok to me.

It does not matter what physical thing you give her; if she accepts it as ajr then she is agreeing to it and you have fulfilled your obligation. She can easily not accept it and then you will have to give her something else until it is acceptable to her. You cannot force her to accept something against her wishes as ajr.

I'm not sure if it's refering to ajr here. It talks of recompense which could be other than ajr

The only compulsory gift/reward given upon getting married is ajr. This has been called "fareeda" in 424, and is being called "mata3" in 2236.

Ajr is the reward/gift for marriage. 2236 talks about the scenario after getting married where the ajr has not been stipulated/specified yet and you want to divorce her. Ajr has not been specified yet but it is compulsory to be given after nikah and is owed. So now if you divorce her, this ajr HAS TO BE PAID. Therefore, this MATA3/gift mentioned in 2236 can only be referring to the ajr that is owed, and because its amount has not been specified yet, the god is telling us to give according to our means. This shows that ajr amount is according to one's means.

As the Quran has left ajr open to interpretation and IMO makes clear in 424 that ajr is not something you mutually agree to before you give it, i get the feeling that you don't have to discuss ajr with the person you intend to be with. Thus you can give her a gift (box of chocolates) and that's ajr.

You already mentioned her ACCEPTING the ajr in one of your quotes above. ACCEPTANCE = MUTUAL AGREEMENT. You can give her whatever you want but if she does not accept it as AJR then it cannot be called ajr.

Why don't you get the same feeling about sex? According to the same line of reasoning, you don't have to discuss having sex with your wife; instead you can forcefully have sex with her even when she does not want to have sex at that particular time for some reason ----> which is called rape. You cannot FORCE anything upon your wife. She has to accept it which then becomes MUTUAL AGREEMENT. This is common sense, not rocket science.

But once the proposal is agreed, the oath follows automatically. If i propose and she agrees, i automatically have commited my self thus an oath before God as God is aware of my mind. It does not specify how you have to take the oath to my knowledge.

In 2235 there is no mention of any "oath/meethaaq/aymaan/3aqad" or "ma malakat aymaanukum". What is being mentioned is "khitbaat al-nisa" which has been translated as "proposal". In your culture "proposal" and "oath" might be the same thing but according to the qur'aanic terminology, they seem to be different things.

"Khitbaat al-nisa" can be done publicly or secretly, so no witnesses needed. I think that it is not an engagement proposal, but sort of like a "dating proposal", meaning something like "I will like to get to know you for the purpose of eventually getting married to you if we are compatible". If she agrees, then she becomes your "girlfriend", but you cannot meet her secretly unless it is for the righteous reasons, you have to protect your private parts from her, and of course no sex.

Second stage is when you make an "engagement proposal", or "oath to get married". This will make her your fiance or "ma malakat aymanukum". This will fall under Ba-Ya-Ayn, necessitating it to be witnessed. You can meet her secretly, you don't have to protect your private parts from her, and of course no sex.

Third stage is nikah/marriage which will require it to be witnessed and ajr to be given, written contract only if ajr is delayed, and finally ....... you can have sex with her yay

huruf

Ajr is a payment for work or services. That is the meaning of the word. It is mentionned and appointed in the Qur'an specifically for marriage to be given by the bridegroom to the bride. To say that it is for sexual services, meaning sexual pleasure relation, is gross and unjustified since it is supposed that the woman also gets her pleasure. But marriage entails reproduction or the possibility of it and the burden of reproduction or of its possibility falls disproportionatelly on the woman. If the man did not even out with the woman on this account, marriage would be grossly unfair to the woman. Therefore the Qur'an establishes it straightforwardly. And therefore, it is not a gift, a generous gift, but a means of equitable distribution and a condition. The amount and the modalities of payment must be agreed by the interested parties.

This is the part that is missing in the "Western" quest for equality between the sexes and many times the extra charge of women in the reproduction for society is not taken into account, so as if it did not exist. This difference on the burden placed by society and nature on woman is glossed over as if it didn't exist. There is some compensation though through social insurance schemes, although how good it is depends on the country and the social benefits it awards its population.

As a matter of common sense, it is obvious that any agreement is better written than non written, and any debt particularly, since it makes for clarity and certainty. I do not think that the Qur'an contradicts that.

Salaam

Samia

Dear sister Salaam
You said
Sister it would have been very reasonable if you had supported your claim with some evidence from the Quran.
I do not find any word "Muhassan".There is only one derivative of this form i.e "Muhassana" which is used as adjective of "villages" as being fortified. This word also is not used with reference to "women".

5914

(5914) They will never fight you in a body (in the open field); if at all they fight, they will fight in fortified strongholds, or from behind walls. They are very intense in mutual enmity. You think that they are united, whereas their hearts are divided. *25 This is because they are a people devoid of sense.

If this word is used in the Quran anywhere else please guide us.
Regards

Salaam Truthseeker11
This is not a derivative, but the feminine of "muhassan". So what if it's used for villages? Can't we use (protected) for villages?!. This in fact goes against your theory immune is more used for humans than muhassan is. Actually, we do not use muhassan for humans, even if they are wearing armour. And muhsan can never be used for villages, but protected can be used for both.

truthseeker11

Peace Samia,

Who said "sexually immune"? I revised both my posts and Tlepsh's and could not find this expression. Pleas show me where any of us said "muhsan is one who is sexually immune".
As for the term muhsan per se, yes, it means immune, and I explained how it is wrong to translate it as "protected", because this meaning (i.e protected) is used in the qur'aan and the correct pattern is used "muhassan". Please don't haste to pick on imaginary mistakes. If the address in verse 424 is to the sexually disabled/disinterested, then it's unlawful to them to marry the immune women (immune from this disability) or as Tlepsh put it (immune sexually able).

If the addressee in 424 are the sexually disabled/disinterested then 423 will have the same addressees also because 423 and 424 are to the same addressees. That would mean that all the categories mentioned in 423 are forbidden only to the sexually disabled/disinterested and that will mean that they are lawful to normal people, which will make it TOTALLY nonsensical.
If the addressees in 424 are the sexually disabled/disinterested, then where is the guidance for the normal people as EID has asked you many times?
Where in the qur'aan does it say that the addressees are the sexually disabled/disinterested?
If mohsanaat means "immune from this disability" then it will make fatayaat "not immune from this disability" because mohsanaat are being contrasted with fatayaat in 425. Using your definitions will result in an ABSOLUTELY nonsensical interpretation. Let's use your definitions

425 says that once the MMA from fatayaat or "not immune from this disability" get married and are given ujoor, will become mohsanaat or "immune to this disability". So that would mean that a sexually disabled woman will MAGICALLY become sexually able after getting married and paid ajr.

WOW, CURE FOR SEXUAL DISABILITY IS "GET MARRIED AND GET AJR" brickwall brickwall brickwall

DESERVES NOBEL PRIZE, doesn't it?