Do you believe hijab is mandatory?

Supernaut

Peace Wakas,

According to studyquran.org, zeenah means "Adornments", "Embellishments" and so on, and so I think zeenah that isn't normally apparent could be something like lingerie. Also, the quran says that women shouldn't reveal their hidden beauty by keeping their feet wide apart. A woman's underwear can show if she's wearing a skirt and sitting with her legs apart. "Hidden beauty" can't refer to a woman's privates because 2431 already tells women to hide those and the god wouldn't let women show their privates to related men, women and children.

SarahY

Supernaut what do you mean by feet wide apart what verse are you talking about?

I think the traditional hijab does have reflection of culture, I don?t think it goes against islam. I think it?s a personal choice as the Quran doesn?t command women to cover their hair.

Look at muslims around the word, they all have different hijab styles, I think it?s a reflection of culture.

I wore hijab because I thought of it as an Islamic obligation a part of submitting to the duty of God, but I was younger than I didn?t know much.. I still don?t think it?s bad. IF I think about taking it off now other than feeling totally uncomfortable I think I would fear my own actions in ways.

Wearing the hijab is a symbolic identity, so as I wear it I reflect on my actions it keeps me cautious/wary of them. Also I grew up in a sunni household so my perceptions maybe are more stricter. So in ways I think I bet I could attract more people without hijab but that?s not necessarily a good thing, so it?s probably better I wore hijab. I don?t regret wearing it.

I don?t get why people make a big fuss about it. I mean it?s either you want to wear it or you don?t.

Supernaut

I vaguely recall a post by Ayman, I think, in which he said that daraba in 2431 should be translated as "Divide" instead of "Strike". Women are told not to sit with their legs open in such a way that their "hidden beauty" (perhaps lingerie) would be revealed.

Wakas

peace Supernaut,

Before I reply, I just realised a slight mistranslation in the MAI site, it should read "... except what is apparent of it" to match the Arabic. It has been corrected.

Also, I am not even sure underwear/lingerie existed or was common place at the time, as we know it today, but in any case, your view does not sit well with the information. Dude, we need to run our understanding through the filtering mechanism of AQ, and see what remains.

According to studyquran.org, zeenah means "Adornments", "Embellishments" and so on

No. Perhaps you mean in Project Root List (PRL) some of the meanings you mention are given as possibilities, or can mean those things. I also recommend an integral part of PRL, see its homepage http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Qwrmic.htm

Can you provide other examples of this word meaning "lingerie/underwear" from AQ?

Also, the quran says that women shouldn't reveal their hidden beauty by keeping their feet wide apart.

Everyone knows that a person can put their feet apart and still keep their legs above the knees together. Your translation is only valid if "arjul" means "legs", and whilst this may be a valid Classical Arabic meaning, as far as I'm aware it is not used like this in AQ.

"Hidden beauty" can't refer to a woman's privates because 2431 already tells women to hide those and the god wouldn't let women show their privates to related men, women and children.

Firstly, it says guard/hfz their private parts, not cover, but covering is one way of guarding them, but the primary implication is chastity.

I also made the mistake you made, and thought the same, but then I realised AQ is referring to what I termed "total beauty" (see equation above). Thus, how much to show of it is left to the individual and will be situational. For example, women's parts are exposed in childbirth and also the breasts in breast-feeding. Not to mention the verse includes "the child who has not yet understood the composition of women", it doesn't say the composition of lingerie/underwear does it! Also, if it did mean lingerie/underwear, then where is the guidance for the private parts, breasts, buttocks etc? Also, it would make lingerie/underwear compulsory, unless we are meant to somehow infer private parts from lingerie and treat them the same.

In any case, your view is problematic in the basic Arabic. Let's see what happens when we insert your understanding

"...and that they should not reveal their lingerie/underwear except what is apparent of (Arabic = min partitive) it..."

"And let them not strike with their feet that reveals what they are keeping hidden of (Arabic = min partitive) their lingerie/underwear."

Explain? Your only explanation can be their lingerie/underwear is partly apparent and partly hidden, and some arbitrary part of it must be kept hidden. This would also mean, this wearing method for it was the norm or only method.

##########

Some other observations

Note, it says "the child who has not yet understood the composition of women/nisa". Going by the context, it suggests "nisa" is a developed female, i.e. post-puberty. This further dents the traditional position on 654.
This also seems to imply it is unrelated children, which would suggest when unrelated children become aware of the composition of women, then the dress code is as for normal unrelated people.

My only question mark on dress code was 2460, as I couldn't prove if it meant discard clothes in general (less likely), or in the house (more likely, due to context), or something else. But now having thought about it, if we take into consideration privacy in times of undress when others must seek permission to be among you at these times, and who revealing of "total beauty" applies to, then it implies (proves?) it is wthin the household. This would also imply that maintaining the minimum dress code with those mentioned in 2431 is better for us or the norm, unless there is a reason, e.g. 2460.

Samia

"Zeena" in the qur'aan can be a natural part of what is mentioned. It can also be a huge wealth, not earrings or bracelets. It may also be specific to what it relates to

376

Surely We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment, the stars,

187

Surely We have made whatever is on the earth an embellishment for it, so that We may try them (as to) which of them is best in works.

3328

If you desire this world's life and its adornment

2860

only a provision of this world's life and its adornment

1115

Whoever desires this world's life and its finery

1846

Wealth and children are an adornment of the life of this world;

168

And (He made) horses and mules and asses that you might ride upon them and as an ornament

732

Say Who has prohibited the embellishment of Allah which He has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?

1828

Know that this world's life is only sport and play and gaiety and boasting among yourselves, and a vying in the multiplication of wealth and children,

2879

So he went forth to his people in his finery. Those who desire this world's life said O would that we had the like of what Qaroun is given; most surely he is possessed of mighty good fortune.

1088

And Musa said Our Lord! surely Thou hast given to Firon and his chiefs finery and riches in this world's life,

1024

until when the earth puts on its golden raiment and it becomes garnished

But when clothes are mentioned, it becomes something else reesh

726

O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame, and (clothing) for beauty and clothing that guards (against evil), that is the best. This is of the communications of Allah that they may be mindful.

I think the "zeena" of women is what's specific to them breasts and bums, and what makes them pretty/attractive.

Meteora

But the point of the verse is to leave it the women to determine what it is they think they should cover. It should NEVER be left for the man to interpret it, period. That causes women wearing Burkhas in Afghanistan.

Afghan man "Oh! The hands! I see her hands! Man gets an erection Cover her hand! Cut off her hand!", etc.

huruf

I think the "zeena" of women is what's specific to them breasts and bums, and what makes them pretty/attractive.

I think it refers to everything and rather than to actual things to the function they are given Show, show off. I think that that the aya deals en great measure with vanity, and sexual trappings, when there is vanity, are a great part of it, and usually go hand in hand with other highlighters like apparel and jewellery and make up and surgery...

Salaam

Samia

I think it refers to everything and rather than to actual things to the function they are given Show, show off. I think that that the aya deals en great measure with vanity, and sexual trappings, when there is vanity, are a great part of it, and usually go hand in hand with other highlighters like apparel and jewellery and make up and surgery...

Salaam

I partially agree with you, but when it comes to "apparel and jewellery and make up and surgery", women are not alone in that. Why aren't men commanded not to show them off? Or you think women do not have similar desires?

almarh0m

Peace Sister

"Zeena" in the qur'aan can be a natural part of what is mentioned. It can also be a huge wealth, not earrings or bracelets. It may also be specific to what it relates to

376

Surely We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment, the stars,

187

Surely We have made whatever is on the earth an embellishment for it, so that We may try them (as to) which of them is best in works.

3328

If you desire this world's life and its adornment

2860

only a provision of this world's life and its adornment

1115

Whoever desires this world's life and its finery

1846

Wealth and children are an adornment of the life of this world;

168

And (He made) horses and mules and asses that you might ride upon them and as an ornament

732

Say Who has prohibited the embellishment of Allah which He has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions?

1828

Know that this world's life is only sport and play and gaiety and boasting among yourselves, and a vying in the multiplication of wealth and children,

2879

So he went forth to his people in his finery. Those who desire this world's life said O would that we had the like of what Qaroun is given; most surely he is possessed of mighty good fortune.

1088

And Musa said Our Lord! surely Thou hast given to Firon and his chiefs finery and riches in this world's life,

1024

until when the earth puts on its golden raiment and it becomes garnished

But when clothes are mentioned, it becomes something else reesh

726

O children of Adam! We have indeed sent down to you clothing to cover your shame, and (clothing) for beauty and clothing that guards (against evil), that is the best. This is of the communications of Allah that they may be mindful.

I think the "zeena" of women is what's specific to them breasts and bums, and what makes them pretty/attractive.

Definitely "Zeena" refers specifically to women's curve of the bums , the breasts ( no cleavage ) showing and nothing to do with jewellery or any other adornments , for 732 rules that out .

Peace

almarh0m

Supernaut

Peace Wakas,

Thank you for your detailed answer. It not only helped me improve my understanding of 2431, but it also reminded me to be careful when trying to understand the quran.

almarh0m

Peace

For "Hijab to be Mandatory" there has to be words of 'head' and 'hair' in 2431 , can you see these 2 words in 2431 ?

" Wa Qul Lilmu'uminti Yaghuna Min 'Abrihinna Wa Yafa?na Furjahunna Wa L Yubdna Znatahunna 'Ill M ?ahara Minh Wa Laribna Bikhumurihinna Al? Juybihinna Wa L Yubdna Znatahunna 'Ill Libulatihinna 'Aw 'b'ihinna 'Aw 'b'i Bulatihinna 'Aw 'Abn'ihinna 'Aw 'Abn'i Bulatihinna 'Aw 'Ikhwnihinna 'Aw Ban 'Ikhwnihinna 'Aw Ban 'Akhawtihinna 'Aw Nis'ihinna 'Aw M Malakat 'Aymnuhunna 'Awi At-Tbina Ghayri 'l Al-'Irbati Mina Ar-Rijli 'Awi A-ifli Al-Ladhna Lam Ya?har Al? Awrti An-Nis' Wa L Yaribna Bi'arjulihinna Liyulama M Yukhfna Min Znatihinna Wa Tb 'Il? Allhi Jaman 'Ayyuh Al-Mu'uminna Laallakum Tuflin " .

" And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful " (2431 ) .

It is not the best translation there is but as we can see in the Arabic text there is no word 'head' or 'hair' in the verse , unless some expert in Arabic can show us their presence in it .

Peace

almarh0m

aynur

Supernaut what do you mean by feet wide apart what verse are you talking about?

I think the traditional hijab does have reflection of culture, I don?t think it goes against islam. I think it?s a personal choice as the Quran doesn?t command women to cover their hair.

Look at muslims around the word, they all have different hijab styles, I think it?s a reflection of culture.

I wore hijab because I thought of it as an Islamic obligation a part of submitting to the duty of God, but I was younger than I didn?t know much.. I still don?t think it?s bad. IF I think about taking it off now other than feeling totally uncomfortable I think I would fear my own actions in ways.

Wearing the hijab is a symbolic identity, so as I wear it I reflect on my actions it keeps me cautious/wary of them. Also I grew up in a sunni household so my perceptions maybe are more stricter. So in ways I think I bet I could attract more people without hijab but that?s not necessarily a good thing, so it?s probably better I wore hijab. I don?t regret wearing it.

I don?t get why people make a big fuss about it. I mean it?s either you want to wear it or you don?t.

Peace Sarah, I like your outlook on hijab.
The problem I have is most Sunni/Shia Muslims will view a non-hijabi as "non-religious" or categorize them as being less pious and less of a "good Muslim" compared to a hijabi. They're judging based on appearance only. And then when one gives the argument about the Qur'an not specifying hair they accuse you of not obeying Allah. So as you said, it's a personal choice - but most Muslims say you chose to obey Allah, or you chose to disobey Allah. Hope that makes sense. P

huruf

I partially agree with you, but when it comes to "apparel and jewellery and make up and surgery", women are not alone in that. Why aren't men commanded not to show them off? Or you think women do not have similar desires?

What desires you mean? I wasn't talking about any desires. I was talking that women are characteristically far more trapped in vanity, that kind of vanity, than men. In fact women are so much trapped and society is so agreable that women be trapped that for many people in fact that is a proof of feminity. And the fact that women are not alone in surgery and the other things, does not mean that they make up the bulk, and that fashion industry and cosmetics are in a great proportion discharched on women and averybody seem to see that as natural and promotable and tends to expect if o a woman. And many women fall for it. So Qur'an hels them not to become a prey of that.

Salaam

SarahY

Aynur

Thanks ) everyone is entitled to go in the direction they choose to go and yes what you said makes sense.

I know that most sunni/shia muslims will view non-hijabs as not religious because of the connotations associated with a girl wearing the hijab. It?s like a formed stereotype..

If you look at the muslim world for example in particular Australia (I can relate to that not sure about other places) around 10 years ago, the concept of hijab wasn?t as heavy as it is now. Before it would be normal to see older women not wearing hijab and if a younger girl did wear it, it would be like ?oh so cute?.

Now a days if people don?t wear it they consider it like disrespect of the self or as arabs say ?3aab? like rude? it?s like she has no humility. It?s turned into a social concept more than a religious duty of what is right and wrong for a particular age. It?s similar in western /non muslim societies in which they comment on a older lady dressed like a ?teenager?.

Unfortunately people do tend to judge on appearance but that doesn?t start or end on muslims. Basically you can?t change that but you can change people?s views of you through your deeds, your actions. I have a sister who doesn?t wear the traditional hijab and people say ?oh shes so nice and kind hearted and good and this and that, but she doesn?t wear hijab?. They throw it in as a comment as if she is neglecting something but they recognise her good attributes. So be it, if you try to please everyone you?ll die a failure and miserable.

Maybe you can say yes I don?t wear the traditional hijab but I do my best in following the command of God by wearing longer garments.. for example. Maybe suggest it?s not about choosing to disobey Allah because I am obeying his command (refer back to the particular verse) and besides none of us a free from sin. Challenge them to prove you?re disobeying? Maybe?

Why I believe hijab isn?t such a bad thing is well it does reflect an identity that I am a muslim, and it reflects my culture. I do not believe Quran is against culture but is against enforcing culture as a religious obligation or that placing it above your duty..

Take this verse for example
4913 (Asad) O men! Behold, We have created you all out of a male and a female, and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you might come to know one another. Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him. Behold, God is all-knowing, all-aware.

I?m no expert at tafsir but to me it?s like our cultures are part of our identity, you can take and leave what you don?t like but it doesn?t mean you need to expel it out of your life, inevitably you will have influences.

Muslims around the world reflect hijab differently, take for example people from Pakistani, India, Bangladesh, their sari?s don?t exactly cover their hair (completely) but they wear it, they reflect their identity and I guess to them that is respecting their identity.

In Iran and Emirates women show the tops of their hair (not all). like in emirates women would wear long abaya?s long loose dresses generally all black and then have a scarf styled with half their hair styled and like 10kgs of makeup haha off course not all people do it like that though it?s a common practice.

In Saudi Arabia I got told by a brother who used to live there that there are areas in which women do not cover their faces, and that the face covering is very cultural based, and that if a women decided not to walk out covered they?d find it offensive. I know Saudi likes to spin off a religious association to it, but it reflects culture.

Again not all people choose to follow this cause of identity. Also something to keep in mind culture changes through generations.
As I said before I wore hijab because I thought it was a religious obligation. This is what I was taught, that muslim women wear the scarf. So I thought I must do this. I wore it before my mother wore it, I didn?t question the need to research that this is a religious obligation, I trusted my teachers, I was still a kid so I accepted her word and decided to wear it. Funnily my parents were against me wearing it which made me want to wear it even more. Then they decided if I wanted to wear it, it was my choice. So I wore it.

So the way I wear hijab covers the necessary besides that I gain respect in my community. To me it?s like a reminder, I have an identity automatically associated upon me, my actions are important so I am more conscious of them. because I wouldn?t want to represent myself in a bad light to give other muslims a bad rep. So it keeps me focused. I?ve been wearing it for almost 14 yrs? to just take it off wouldn?t be comforting also I have other external influences which would compel me to keep wearing it.

ok that's abit long i'll leave it there

Salam )

Q_student