Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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Where did i say that Male slaves and the women who were possesed with right hand were same? and if you have read my old posts you would exactly know who and how MMA came along .
siki
MMA are of both gender. Scan the qur'aan and you will find that women too can have MMA. Also verses 7022-30 are describing both genders (precisely al musalleen) and is speaking of their MMA or spouses
7029
And those who guard their private parts,
7030Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess-- for these surely are not to be blamed
I thought you already know that, but it seems I am giving you an undeserved privilege
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MMA are of both gender. Scan the qur'aan and you will find that women too can have MMA. Also verses 7022-30 are describing both genders (precisely al musalleen) and is speaking of their MMA or spouses
7029
And those who guard their private parts,
7030Except in the case of their wives or those whom their right hands possess-- for these surely are not to be blamed
I thought you already know that, but it seems I am giving you an undeserved privilege
They might be, but first accept their existence, only then we can move forward to find weather HURUF is a sister, brother or both
siki
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Is control dissipiation culminating into extinction, identified as a regulation?
Do we have a commandment , like " This day all slaves are free and All MMA upgraded as Nikahed wives of the posseser " ? And if He has NOT done that, You think you carry better wisdom than the All Mighty?
siki
No
No
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Neither of them can define the exact nature of MMA "from the Quran". Ultimately they will have to refer to dictionaries of Classical Arabic.
Nor can you find the content or procedure for salat connection in the book , but you still keep going at it, probably five times a day, why?
siki
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Siki, you are taking whatever Samia says and whatever I say and mixing it anyway you fancy as if it was one and the same thing. Well, Samia is Samia and Huruf is Huruf. You cannot answer to Samia and mix in whatever you want to add from my posts nor nswer to me and mix in similarly Samias posts. You are harping on me with the sexless marriage, when actually I havent said myself a word on that, all I have done is try to clarify how Samia got to it and her arguments. In fact you seemed to be bent on making recruits for Samia's understanding by pushing me to join out of despite of your words. But I am still where I was a at the beginning, I am considering everything, Samia's understanding included and I will reach a conclusion whenever I find it justified, or I will not reach if I don't find sufficient foundation.
Huruf. salam
Not only that you buy her ideas, but go a step further, and provide nonsensical justifications for her illogical postulates. And then you accuse me of bundling you two together unjustly?
On the flip side, have you even once posted a remark giving me a feeling that what all i am posting is Not Trash?siki
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Of course it is you who says the part in red. The Qur'an does not say it. In fact if a child is born of that pleasure, are you saying that the Qur'an means the father is under no obligation whatsoever?
Child, if any, born out of this Mutta contract do not inherit , and as for providing sustenance by the biological father, i am not too sure , probably some Irani brother/or sister can update us. What all I understand is,
"Walla junnaha fima tardeed um bihi , min baadij faridha tin"
"Faridda tin" , is obligation, before touching her sexually, it is obligatory for the man to pay ajar , and after the woman is through with her obligation (of providing contractual sex) there is no blame upon them to what ever they both agree. It probably suggests that they can decide mutually for the after affects of this adventure.
siki
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Child, if any, born out of this Mutta contract do not inherit , and as for providing sustenance by the biological father, i am not too sure , probably some Irani brother/or sister can update us.
I do not want the thread derailed, but just to remind you that this forum is to study qur'aan, not shia's or sunni's unederstandings.
Those children born out of this mutt3a contract Is it your opinion that they do not inheri? If so, what's your proof? If it's not your opinion, re-read the first line of my post. -
They might be, but first accept their existence, only then we can move forward to find weather HURUF is a sister, brother or both
siki
dear brother, It is highly advisable that you take a break for a week or so and come back with a fresh mind so that you are able to take part in a mature discussion, what you said in above post is utter nonsense.
thanks
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379 It is not for a human that God would give him the Scripture and the authority and the prophethood, then he would say to the people ?Be slaves of me rather than God!?, rather ?Be devotees for what you have been taught of the Scripture, and for what you studied.?
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Salamun alaykum
" Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe " ( 2951 ) .
" O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end " ( 459 ) .
Peace
almarh0m
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Salamun alaykum
" Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe " ( 2951 ) .
" O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end " ( 459 ) .
Peace
almarh0m
Great idea bravo
Better to ask God for guidance when your unsure and stick to your reason, logic and heart.
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So, it seems that an important part of answering the initial part of the thread is to determine what are the MMA. One opinion is that they are slaves, or sexual slaves and typically females, another is that they are the spouses in a non-sex marriage, another which I am not sure it has been mentioned in this thread is that they are persons gone over to the believers who were married to unbelievers when they went over and were under the protection of the believers. I do not know whether there are any more theories. If there are, they could be added to the list and may be the whole can be organized and weighed. In and by itself, determining the meaning of MMA is obviously very important. It is also possible that more than one of those meanings might be combined.
Salaam
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Peace Samia
I know you're in discussion but if i'm not wrong you think ajr is something that's ongoing.
I've looked at truthseeker's comments on this and think that he's right based on how the prophet had already given the ujoor 3350
So i just wanted to ask (whenever you can) i'd be greatful if you can give your understanding of ajr in 3350 and how it can be something that's ongoing when it's already been given.
Using 3350, is their a chance that the prophet was already giving ajr before the marrige?
I mean is it definate that ajr has to come after marriage?Could it not be that your giving ajr to someone and then you choose to marry them? Thus after your nikah ajr is already in place??
Thanks
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Using 3350, is their a chance that the prophet was already giving ajr before the marrige?
I mean is it definate that ajr has to come after marriage?Could it not be that your giving ajr to someone and then you choose to marry them? Thus after your nikah ajr is already in place??
Salaam nimnimak_11
3350
O Prophet! verily We have made lawful to you your wives to whom have given their hires, and also those whomsoever your right hand owns of those whomsoever Allah has granted you , and the daughters of your paternal uncle, and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncle, and the daughters of your maternal aunts, who migrated with you, and any believing woman, when she offered herself to the Prophet if the Prophet desires to wed her --purely for you, above the rest of the believers. Surely We know that which We have ordained to them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands won in order that there may be no blame upon you And Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
I do not find this a strong point. The whole verse should be in the past, yet there is a conditional sentence/case in it. All the translators put the verse in the present perfect. Wouldn't it be that he had been paying the wages up to the moment of the verse? In fact the context is signaling out those who "had been actually married and paid" out of the others who would be paid (if he marries them). Has the prophet married all these women, or he was just told that they were lawful in case he wanted to marry them? The verb tense is to be taken in context.
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Thanks Samia
Wouldn't it be that he had been paying the wages up to the moment of the verse?
That was amongst the things i was considering.
Two more questions please
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Considering that ajr is ongoing Once i begin to give ajr, i have started my obligation. Does this mean that i am married (considering all other things have been done)? Also what happens when i stop giving ajr? Does this mean that i'm no longer 100% married?
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I was interested in this part of the verse "O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry"
What is the purpose of the word lawful here? If they are already married which is implied by the usage of the word "wife" and the prophet has given the ajr, then in what way do they need to be lawful to each other? Sex? Wouldn't this mean that more then one women would be lawful to him at a time?? So does this mean that it would have been lawful for him to sleep with more then 1 woman o ???
Thanks
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Thanks Samia
That was amongst the things i was considering.
Two more questions please
- Considering that ajr is ongoing Once i begin to give ajr, i have started my obligation. Does this mean that i am married (considering all other things have been done)? Also what happens when i stop giving ajr? Does this mean that i'm no longer 100% married?
No, I do not think this stops marriage. Divorce is a longer process. Your wife can either divorce you or the community may interfere and try to solve the problem (412.
- I was interested in this part of the verse "O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowry"
What is the purpose of the word lawful here? If they are already married which is implied by the usage of the word "wife" and the prophet has given the ajr, then in what way do they need to be lawful to each other? Sex? Wouldn't this mean that more then one women would be lawful to him at a time?? So does this mean that it would have been lawful for him to sleep with more then 1 woman Shocked Huh?
Made lawful to you does not mean you can marry all of them at once!. If the doctor tells you that you can eat vegetables, fruit and fish, this does not mean you have to eat all of them .