Well Here Goes...
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let's say hypothetically that there is a 50/50 chance that's a big assumption to make! Even in hadith you can find good things, I wouldn't call them satan verses. Clearly it's a beautiful way to maintain hostility and rivalry not nice at all. I guess codes can make you over look things like content take 16125 for example.
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This is part one http//www.islamrevolution.org/9128129parti.htm
This is part two http//www.islamrevolution.org/9128129partii.htmAs usual and expected, the 19er who wrote the nonsensical junk in the links is a hypocrite. Therefore, here is what he starts from
1.1 What does hadiths and sunna say about 9128-129
Peace,
Ayman
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As usual and expected, the 19er who wrote the nonsensical junk in the links is a hypocrite. Therefore, here is what he starts from
1.1 What does hadiths and sunna say about 9128-129
Peace,
Ayman
he did that to convince traditionalists.
And you know what? People have already given up in trying to convince you. Ask Pierre for instance. Even I tried to convince you. But I might as well give up, since you are a rejector of the great mathematical miracle of the Quran.Besides, give me one GOOD reason for rejecting the great mathematical miracle of the Quran.
Peace
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Bookmarking that. Thanks much pro.
To all I want to apologize for the way I've been acting since the time I joined here, but that should be no surprise. It's my religion, something that I put above anything else.
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lmao! Signature of Satan?! HAHAHAAHA
...a way to put it I guess...for the hardcore anti 9128&129 but I am not so. It's in the Quran, and even when it doesn't go with the code, or whatever evidence is presented in those links that I've yet to read, I'm not going to say they're Satan's words. It's not like they're...satanic, or sounding like they came from a hadith book. They actually seem to fit well within the context!
Peace,
it was hard for me as well to reject the false verses. Believe me it is very hard at first. I was like WHAT?!! Removing verses from the Quran?! But then I realized that they are not part of the Quran.
There are also other good links that prove that they are not part of the Quran.
Besides, let me quote one of them A messenger has come to you from among you who wants no hardship to afflict you, and cares about you, and is compassionate towards the believers, merciful.
That should ring a bell in the mind of sincere believers. How on earth could God call Muhammad "merciful", when this is a divine attribute?
Besides, do you think that it is a coincidence that God DID NOT SIGN THAT CHAPTER?? IT IS THE ONLY CHAPTER IN THE ENTIRE QUAN THAT IS NOT SIGNED BY GOD (with the basmalah)!
And how many chapters later two basmalahs? ... You guessed it! Precisely 19 chapters after that!
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But some people (like the ones we know) just throw that in the category of coincidences despite how many things the #19 actually works with. They're claiming the ratio of successes to failures is 1/19, even though they cannot elaborate on this claim or even list the failures themselves.
No matter how many times you make it clear to them that any number only works with the right equations, they will simply be rejectors. I admit I have not looked into the issue of 19 as much as other people (started maybe two months ago) but I have yet to see a "failure" up to this point.
And once again, whenever a hadith is being used on the submitter side, it is only used as HISTORICAL REFERENCE and only to convince traditionalists. They are not using it as proof for their side, per se.
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But some people (like the ones we know) just throw that in the category of coincidences despite how many things the #19 actually works with. They're claiming the ratio of successes to failures is 1/19, even though they cannot elaborate on this claim or even list the failures themselves.
No matter how many times you make it clear to them that any number only works with the right equations, they will simply be rejectors. I admit I have not looked into the issue of 19 as much as other people (started maybe two months ago) but I have yet to see a "failure" up to this point.
And once again, whenever a hadith is being used on the submitter side, it is only used as HISTORICAL REFERENCE and only to convince traditionalists. They are not using it as proof for their side, per se.
Peace,
Keep in mind that there are many people out there who put together some random numbers and then get multiples of 19. Make sure that you are very critical with the info displayed, even at islamrevolution.org
Of course there are many astounding findings, but a lot of them are just from baseless numerologists who "hunt" for multiples. Rejectors of 19 take such examples and exploit them and say stuff like "see, its all baseless numerology". And I can definitely say NO! IT's NOT all baseless numerology. But dont buy everything you see.As for 9128-129 I am 100% convinced that they are not part of the Quran.
Also, the simple fact that Muhammad is called "rahim" should be immediately suspicious - IT IS AN ATTRINUTE OF GOD! -
just to comment quickly
You implicate that no one can have attributes of God? you believe no one can be merciful for example? no one at all can show any attribute of mercy?
I don't believe that, the verse indicates he is a mercy for the people, think about it. having the Quran is a mercy without it's guidance we'd be like the last followers of revelation or even worse. So Mohammed as a messenger is a mercy upon us.
Also Ayman has a point in relation to tradition, the person on the site argues traditional accounts of the last verses to further support his theory of removing the verses. Has more study been undertaken in this regard on other verses, probably not. Allahu alem.
i read somewhere that code 19 can be proven in other things such as the american declaration of independence
I don't know to much about the code but there appears to be a mixture of formula just to find the code.
also look at this for example
"The 19th occurrence of the word "God" in the Quran takes place in verse 255 (2 + 55 = 57 = 19x3)"
Why add the two to make the number a dividable by 19 and why not do the same in other verses, why are certain verses hand picked just to try prove in the 19 "miracle".
Also if he wants to argue codes and relevance of verses, how can he be sure the verses are accurately ordered? how can he take that for granted?
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I must admit that after reading the anti-19 arguments and rebuttals to those arguments, I feel that there are far too many instances of 19 being coded through out the Quran for it to be simple spin on RK's part. That is not to say I buy his website hook, line and sinker, but a major part of what he says is correct. God has never misguided me so far and I don't believe He is about to start now so ayman I must say your argument smells of BS to me.
No personal offence intended, its just that we all have to answer to answer to God personally so therefore I must follow what I feel is right.
Also, the simple fact that Muhammad is called "rahim" should be immediately suspicious - IT IS AN ATTRINUTE OF GOD!
I was pretty much a fence sitter on this issue of the two verses till now as it isn't of deathly importance in my mind, but this pretty much made it crystal clear for me. Thank you for making this point Progressive.
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just to comment quickly
You implicate that no one can have attributes of God? you believe no one can be merciful for example? no one at all can show any attribute of mercy?
I don't believe that, the verse indicates he is a mercy for the people, think about it. having the Quran is a mercy without it's guidance we'd be like the last followers of revelation or even worse. So Mohammed as a messenger is a mercy upon us.
Also Ayman has a point in relation to tradition, the person on the site argues traditional accounts of the last verses to further support his theory of removing the verses. Has more study been undertaken in this regard on other verses, probably not. Allahu alem.
i read somewhere that code 19 can be proven in other things such as the american declaration of independence
I don't know to much about the code but there appears to be a mixture of formula just to find the code.
also look at this for example
"The 19th occurrence of the word "God" in the Quran takes place in verse 255 (2 + 55 = 57 = 19x3)"
Why add the two to make the number a dividable by 19 and why not do the same in other verses, why are certain verses hand picked just to try prove in the 19 "miracle".
Also if he wants to argue codes and relevance of verses, how can he be sure the verses are accurately ordered? how can he take that for granted?
I did not say that. Of course people can be merciful and we are asked to be merciful at times. But how can God call a messenger "merciful" IN THE QURAN?? Besides, did you notice that the two "verses" are ONLY and ONLY, ONLY about the Prophet? They basically glorify/praise the Prophet.
Peace
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Peace
I did not say that. Of course people can be merciful and we are asked to be merciful at times. But how can God call a messenger "merciful" IN THE QURAN?? Besides, did you notice that the two "verses" are ONLY and ONLY, ONLY about the Prophet? They basically glorify/praise the Prophet.
Peace
What is the difference between glorifying Muhammad and glorifying The Code19 ? Must we believe in Code19 first before we believe in The Qur'an ? I know you did not say that , but you might as well say it .
Why should not god call his servants what He wills ? Just because "rahim" is an attribute of god , does that mean that no man should be called by that name ?
Did god call the messenger of the Qur'an "Praiseworthy" in the Qur'an or not ? Or no human should be worthy to be called by this name ? What does Muhammad means according to Code19 ?
If I believed in Code19 , would that enable me to understand The Qur'an better or my life in this world be more peaceful and blessed by the god ?
Why do code19 devotees are so against this "Rahim/Merciful" but no objection whatsoever about The God calling the messenger by name as Muhammad/Praiseworthy as many as four times + once as "Ahmad" ?
For clarity of the meaning of the word Muhammad , I am quoting the root list meanings of Ha-Miim-Dal
" Ha-Miim-Dal = To praise or eulogize or commend someone, speak well of someone, mention someone with approbation, approve of a thing, recompense/pay someone his due, to be praiseworthy or commendable. Verb form 8 said of heat to burn or burn fiercely, to be vehement.
hamida vb. (1)
impf. pass. 3188
n.vb. 12, 230, 61, 645, 743, 1010, 1313, 1439, 1598, 1675, 1744, 1752, 17111, 181, 20130, 2328, 2558, 2715, 2759, 2793, 2870, 2963, 3018, 3125, 3215, 341, 341, 351, 3534, 37182, 3929, 3974, 3975, 3975, 407, 4055, 4065, 425, 4536, 5039, 5248, 641, 1103
pcple. act. 9112
pcple. pass. 1779ahmad n. 616
hamid n.m. 2267, 4131, 1173, 141, 148, 2224, 2264, 3112, 3126, 346, 3515, 4142, 4228, 5724, 606, 646, 858
muhammad n. 3144, 3340, 472, 4829
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 274, 275, 276 " .
Peace
almarh0m
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you saved me some time almarh0m i was going to go through verses in relation to muhammed but i don't need to.
i believe people love the code because to them, it makes them believe the Quran is divine. Without it they believe it is not divine, probably. I don?t think it makes them follow it any more or less maybe just obsessive about proving that it is valid that appears to be more important than content, even though there are verses about the prophet.
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Peace
Interestingly enough there is some Quran Historicity debate going on in the other part of the forum. Things don't look to good.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598346.0
Some people like to waste their time on other scriptures , most of us , I come here to learn more about Islam through The Qur'an .
Peace
almarh0m
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Peace
you saved me some time almarh0m i was going to go through verses in relation to muhammed but i don't need to.
i believe people love the code because to them, it makes them believe the Quran is divine. Without it they believe it is not divine, probably. I don?t think it makes them follow it any more or less maybe just obsessive about proving that it is valid that appears to be more important than content, even though there are verses about the prophet.
I really think that only god alone is divine , while I believe that Al Qur'an is 100% of divine origin , The Qur'an itself is not divine , otherwise we'd end up worshipping The Qur'an alongside god . We , the human as well as other creatures also have a divine origin ( we are all from god ) . , but that does not make us divine .
Peace
almarh0m
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Peace
ok fair enough, so how would you describe the Quran? accurate until proven otherwise? divine origins but not actually divine content.. dunno what would you say
The Qur'an is as real as we are people and everything else in this universe , but does it mean that everything that is real , true and accurate can be said to be divine ? Only The God alone is divine and nothing else . At least in my understanding of what divine is .
Peace
almarh0m
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Peace
ok let me pose a question... everything has divine origins what makes you believe the Quran is true
Bacause , I haven't found anything within the Qur'an that is not true , from the stories of the people of the past to the accuracy of the verses relating to science and all other branches of knowledge . Although there was a period in my life when I stopped believing in god , but never stop reading the Qur'an . ( I know it sounds contradictory , but it was true in my early twenties ) .
Cheers
almarh0m