Well Here Goes...
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But some people (like the ones we know) just throw that in the category of coincidences despite how many things the #19 actually works with. They're claiming the ratio of successes to failures is 1/19, even though they cannot elaborate on this claim or even list the failures themselves.
No matter how many times you make it clear to them that any number only works with the right equations, they will simply be rejectors. I admit I have not looked into the issue of 19 as much as other people (started maybe two months ago) but I have yet to see a "failure" up to this point.
And once again, whenever a hadith is being used on the submitter side, it is only used as HISTORICAL REFERENCE and only to convince traditionalists. They are not using it as proof for their side, per se.
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But some people (like the ones we know) just throw that in the category of coincidences despite how many things the #19 actually works with. They're claiming the ratio of successes to failures is 1/19, even though they cannot elaborate on this claim or even list the failures themselves.
No matter how many times you make it clear to them that any number only works with the right equations, they will simply be rejectors. I admit I have not looked into the issue of 19 as much as other people (started maybe two months ago) but I have yet to see a "failure" up to this point.
And once again, whenever a hadith is being used on the submitter side, it is only used as HISTORICAL REFERENCE and only to convince traditionalists. They are not using it as proof for their side, per se.
Peace,
Keep in mind that there are many people out there who put together some random numbers and then get multiples of 19. Make sure that you are very critical with the info displayed, even at islamrevolution.org
Of course there are many astounding findings, but a lot of them are just from baseless numerologists who "hunt" for multiples. Rejectors of 19 take such examples and exploit them and say stuff like "see, its all baseless numerology". And I can definitely say NO! IT's NOT all baseless numerology. But dont buy everything you see.As for 9128-129 I am 100% convinced that they are not part of the Quran.
Also, the simple fact that Muhammad is called "rahim" should be immediately suspicious - IT IS AN ATTRINUTE OF GOD! -
just to comment quickly
You implicate that no one can have attributes of God? you believe no one can be merciful for example? no one at all can show any attribute of mercy?
I don't believe that, the verse indicates he is a mercy for the people, think about it. having the Quran is a mercy without it's guidance we'd be like the last followers of revelation or even worse. So Mohammed as a messenger is a mercy upon us.
Also Ayman has a point in relation to tradition, the person on the site argues traditional accounts of the last verses to further support his theory of removing the verses. Has more study been undertaken in this regard on other verses, probably not. Allahu alem.
i read somewhere that code 19 can be proven in other things such as the american declaration of independence
I don't know to much about the code but there appears to be a mixture of formula just to find the code.
also look at this for example
"The 19th occurrence of the word "God" in the Quran takes place in verse 255 (2 + 55 = 57 = 19x3)"
Why add the two to make the number a dividable by 19 and why not do the same in other verses, why are certain verses hand picked just to try prove in the 19 "miracle".
Also if he wants to argue codes and relevance of verses, how can he be sure the verses are accurately ordered? how can he take that for granted?
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I must admit that after reading the anti-19 arguments and rebuttals to those arguments, I feel that there are far too many instances of 19 being coded through out the Quran for it to be simple spin on RK's part. That is not to say I buy his website hook, line and sinker, but a major part of what he says is correct. God has never misguided me so far and I don't believe He is about to start now so ayman I must say your argument smells of BS to me.
No personal offence intended, its just that we all have to answer to answer to God personally so therefore I must follow what I feel is right.
Also, the simple fact that Muhammad is called "rahim" should be immediately suspicious - IT IS AN ATTRINUTE OF GOD!
I was pretty much a fence sitter on this issue of the two verses till now as it isn't of deathly importance in my mind, but this pretty much made it crystal clear for me. Thank you for making this point Progressive.
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just to comment quickly
You implicate that no one can have attributes of God? you believe no one can be merciful for example? no one at all can show any attribute of mercy?
I don't believe that, the verse indicates he is a mercy for the people, think about it. having the Quran is a mercy without it's guidance we'd be like the last followers of revelation or even worse. So Mohammed as a messenger is a mercy upon us.
Also Ayman has a point in relation to tradition, the person on the site argues traditional accounts of the last verses to further support his theory of removing the verses. Has more study been undertaken in this regard on other verses, probably not. Allahu alem.
i read somewhere that code 19 can be proven in other things such as the american declaration of independence
I don't know to much about the code but there appears to be a mixture of formula just to find the code.
also look at this for example
"The 19th occurrence of the word "God" in the Quran takes place in verse 255 (2 + 55 = 57 = 19x3)"
Why add the two to make the number a dividable by 19 and why not do the same in other verses, why are certain verses hand picked just to try prove in the 19 "miracle".
Also if he wants to argue codes and relevance of verses, how can he be sure the verses are accurately ordered? how can he take that for granted?
I did not say that. Of course people can be merciful and we are asked to be merciful at times. But how can God call a messenger "merciful" IN THE QURAN?? Besides, did you notice that the two "verses" are ONLY and ONLY, ONLY about the Prophet? They basically glorify/praise the Prophet.
Peace
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Peace
I did not say that. Of course people can be merciful and we are asked to be merciful at times. But how can God call a messenger "merciful" IN THE QURAN?? Besides, did you notice that the two "verses" are ONLY and ONLY, ONLY about the Prophet? They basically glorify/praise the Prophet.
Peace
What is the difference between glorifying Muhammad and glorifying The Code19 ? Must we believe in Code19 first before we believe in The Qur'an ? I know you did not say that , but you might as well say it .
Why should not god call his servants what He wills ? Just because "rahim" is an attribute of god , does that mean that no man should be called by that name ?
Did god call the messenger of the Qur'an "Praiseworthy" in the Qur'an or not ? Or no human should be worthy to be called by this name ? What does Muhammad means according to Code19 ?
If I believed in Code19 , would that enable me to understand The Qur'an better or my life in this world be more peaceful and blessed by the god ?
Why do code19 devotees are so against this "Rahim/Merciful" but no objection whatsoever about The God calling the messenger by name as Muhammad/Praiseworthy as many as four times + once as "Ahmad" ?
For clarity of the meaning of the word Muhammad , I am quoting the root list meanings of Ha-Miim-Dal
" Ha-Miim-Dal = To praise or eulogize or commend someone, speak well of someone, mention someone with approbation, approve of a thing, recompense/pay someone his due, to be praiseworthy or commendable. Verb form 8 said of heat to burn or burn fiercely, to be vehement.
hamida vb. (1)
impf. pass. 3188
n.vb. 12, 230, 61, 645, 743, 1010, 1313, 1439, 1598, 1675, 1744, 1752, 17111, 181, 20130, 2328, 2558, 2715, 2759, 2793, 2870, 2963, 3018, 3125, 3215, 341, 341, 351, 3534, 37182, 3929, 3974, 3975, 3975, 407, 4055, 4065, 425, 4536, 5039, 5248, 641, 1103
pcple. act. 9112
pcple. pass. 1779ahmad n. 616
hamid n.m. 2267, 4131, 1173, 141, 148, 2224, 2264, 3112, 3126, 346, 3515, 4142, 4228, 5724, 606, 646, 858
muhammad n. 3144, 3340, 472, 4829
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 274, 275, 276 " .
Peace
almarh0m
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you saved me some time almarh0m i was going to go through verses in relation to muhammed but i don't need to.
i believe people love the code because to them, it makes them believe the Quran is divine. Without it they believe it is not divine, probably. I don?t think it makes them follow it any more or less maybe just obsessive about proving that it is valid that appears to be more important than content, even though there are verses about the prophet.
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Peace
Interestingly enough there is some Quran Historicity debate going on in the other part of the forum. Things don't look to good.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598346.0
Some people like to waste their time on other scriptures , most of us , I come here to learn more about Islam through The Qur'an .
Peace
almarh0m
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Peace
you saved me some time almarh0m i was going to go through verses in relation to muhammed but i don't need to.
i believe people love the code because to them, it makes them believe the Quran is divine. Without it they believe it is not divine, probably. I don?t think it makes them follow it any more or less maybe just obsessive about proving that it is valid that appears to be more important than content, even though there are verses about the prophet.
I really think that only god alone is divine , while I believe that Al Qur'an is 100% of divine origin , The Qur'an itself is not divine , otherwise we'd end up worshipping The Qur'an alongside god . We , the human as well as other creatures also have a divine origin ( we are all from god ) . , but that does not make us divine .
Peace
almarh0m
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Peace
ok fair enough, so how would you describe the Quran? accurate until proven otherwise? divine origins but not actually divine content.. dunno what would you say
The Qur'an is as real as we are people and everything else in this universe , but does it mean that everything that is real , true and accurate can be said to be divine ? Only The God alone is divine and nothing else . At least in my understanding of what divine is .
Peace
almarh0m
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Peace
ok let me pose a question... everything has divine origins what makes you believe the Quran is true
Bacause , I haven't found anything within the Qur'an that is not true , from the stories of the people of the past to the accuracy of the verses relating to science and all other branches of knowledge . Although there was a period in my life when I stopped believing in god , but never stop reading the Qur'an . ( I know it sounds contradictory , but it was true in my early twenties ) .
Cheers
almarh0m
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Peace Meteora,
But some people (like the ones we know) just throw that in the category of coincidences despite how many things the #19 actually works with. They're claiming the ratio of successes to failures is 1/19, even though they cannot elaborate on this claim or even list the failures themselves.
No matter how many times you make it clear to them that any number only works with the right equations, they will simply be rejectors. I admit I have not looked into the issue of 19 as much as other people (started maybe two months ago) but I have yet to see a "failure" up to this point.
And once again, whenever a hadith is being used on the submitter side, it is only used as HISTORICAL REFERENCE and only to convince traditionalists. They are not using it as proof for their side, per se.Thank you for giving me this idea
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598414
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Although these facts are irrefutable and labled coincidences
The first verse 11 known as "Basmalla" consists of 19 letters.
This verse was revealed to Muhammed after 7430, which states
"Over it is 19".The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is 19X6.
From the missing Basmalla of Sura 9 to the extra Basmalla of Sura 27, there are precisely 19 Suras.
It follows that the total of the sura numbers from 9 to 27 9+10+11+12..... . +26+27) is 342, or 19X 18
This total (342) also equals the number of words between the two Basmallas of
sura 27. and 342 = 19X18The famous first revelation (961-5) consists of 19 words.
Sura 96, first in the chronological sequence, consists of 19 verses.
This first Chronological sura is placed atop the last 19 suras.
Sura 96 consists of 304 Arabic letters and 304 = 19X16
The last revelation (Sura 110) consists of 19 words.
17-Between the first intialed Sura (Sura 2) and the last intialed Sura (Sura 6
there are 38 un-initialed suras , 38=19X2Between the first and last initialed sura there are 19 sets of alternating
"initialed" and "uninitialed" Suras,The Quran mention 30 different whole numbers throughout,
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,19,20,30,40,50,60,70,80,99,100,200,300,1000,2000,
3000,5000,50,000, & 100,000.
The sum of these numbers is 162146 = 19X8534The following 2 facts may need some help with a calculator.
The word God (ALLAH) occurs throughout the Quran in its 114 Suras
2698 times and 2698= 19X142.The number of verses where the word God occurs add up to 118123
also a multiple of 19, = 19X6217The Quran's dominant message is that there is only "ONE GOD"
The word 'One", in Arabic "Wahid" in reference to God occurs 19 times
throughout the Quran.The word "Quran" occurs in the Quran 58 times, with one of them referring to
"another Quran" in 1015, therefore, if excluded, the frequency of "this Quran" in
the Quran is 57, or 19X3The first Pillar of Islam is stated in 318 as "La Elaaha Ella Hoo".(There is no
other God besides Him). This most important expression occurs in 19 suras.And talk about being "obsessed" with a number. I don't know, I'm starting to think you're among those referred to in the rejectors' interpretated version of 7431. laugh
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I should probably list the ones I'm 100% will and cannot be questioned, but I'd like to see refutations to the others I've listed in the above post.
Quran is the 19th and final scripture
The last and first revelations are both 19 words
Bismillalrahmanalraheem is 19 letters
ISM occurs in the entire text of the Quran 19 times 19=19*1
The second word in the "Basmallah" is ALLaH, it occurs in the entire text of the Quran 2698 times 2698=19*142
The third word AL-RaHMaN occurs 57 times 57=19*3
The fourth word AL-RaHYM occurs 114 times 114=19*6
Number 19 is the numerical value of the word "ONE" in all the scriptural languages, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic. The number 19, therefore proclaims the First commandment in all the scriptures that there is only ONE GOD.
The Quran mention 30 different whole numbers throughout, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 1 1, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100 ,200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50,000, & 100,000. The sum of these numbers is 162146 = 19X8534
The Quran's dominant message is that there is only "ONE GOD". The word 'One", in Arabic "Wahid" in reference to God occurs 19 times throughout the Quran.
The numbers of all the Suras of the Qu?ran preceded by their revelation order next to each other becomes a huge 19 multiple
I'll except that using the number to change/alter the Quran may be uncalled for. It may be supported by God, it may not. I have only opinion when it comes to this, but if someone feels like giving his usual response to the above facts, "nothing more that a coincidence" so be it. I'll do my part and try not to laugh.
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I also find the intial structure thing really amazing.
Ayman, can you refute Appendix 1?http//quranix.net/#?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&SH=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&S=1&SA=1&NQ=A01&NQA=RK
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ISM occurs in the entire text of the Quran 19 times 19=19*1
The second word in the "Basmallah" is ALLaH, it occurs in the entire text of the Quran 2698 times 2698=19*142
The third word AL-RaHMaN occurs 57 times 57=19*3
The fourth word AL-RaHYM occurs 114 times 114=19*6
Forgot to add that 142+3+1+6 is 19x8, among all other coincidences.
19ers and anti-19ers fight over the meaning of 7431, and to me it's somewhat funny. I don't really think God is throwing people in hell because they doubted the validity of 9128+129, but I do think he used the number to make people of various religions accept the true Islam. Why 19 rejectors insist on believing God is a vicious tyrant as depicted in the former statement, and not a merciful blesser in the latter statement I don't fathom.
I say, who cares about 128+129? They are about Muhammad. Do we really care about Muhammad as we care about God? What has he done for us (which makes you wonder why the sunnis think they should love a 1400 year old dead man more than their mothers and fathers laugh? And what difference would it make if you didn't include 128+129 in your life? It's not a commandment, and it's not something we DON'T already no. No shit, a prophet has come to us. It makes no difference, and 129 is just a reflection of what sunnis today will tell you. They say even today that the Quranites say "God (or Quran) is enough for us!" which is what 129 says. In fact, 9129 is the only verse in the ENTIRE Quran, in it's non-twisted translation, that upholds the alleged hadith of Muhammad (or all of Muhammad's true sayings as a human being for that matter). I wonder why the hadithists have yet to use that one laugh. Like the other things mentioned, I doubt this is a coincidence either.
The fact is no one will know 100% if they are from God or not. We're not supposed to talk about that which we have no knowledge. That is why we say "allahu a'lem" (God knows best) and it is important that we argue what we say as opinions and not facts (what I've said about 128+129 not being from God were my opinions, and this applies to all other arguments from others regarding 128+129), but to deny that 19 is a miracle (in other words, not a coincidence) is the choice of someone. We're not going to enforce it. You can't get a disbeliever to believe without God's leave.
Other facts about 19
It encompasses the first numeral (1) and the last numeral (9), as if to proclaim God's attribute in 573 as the "Alpha and the Omega".
-M