Gelatin & Additives
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IS BLOOD OF THE PIGS HARAAM?
Of course. Remember, blood in general is haram.
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Of course. Remember, blood in general is haram.
Even cooked Blood?
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Peace,
I partially agree with Progressive on this one... The meat (flesh) of pigs is the only thing specifically forbidden in the scripture, and we shouldn't declare anything "haraam" unless G-d specifically forbade it. Therefore, if someone wants to eat the fat, the bones, or even the brains of a pig, it's that person's choice; it's not unlawful to do so. The only thing forbidden is the flesh...
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Peace,
I partially agree with Progressive on this one... The meat (flesh) of pigs is the only thing specifically forbidden in the scripture, and we shouldn't declare anything "haraam" unless G-d specifically forbade it. Therefore, if someone wants to eat the fat, the bones, or even the brains of a pig, it's that person's choice; it's not unlawful to do so. The only thing forbidden is the flesh...
Well the blood too are forbidden...
Maria
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Of course. Remember, blood in general is haram.
Even cooked Blood?If there is blood in the meat, that is fine. But not pure, running blood. When I say that the blood is forbidden, I mean running blodd which you can put in a glass jar and cook.
Peace
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What's up with you?
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I am not leaving the intellect behind.
Go see what Christians do - they eat pork. Now use your "intellect" and you will see that they are fine and healthy and then you would say "I guess pork is healthy and not toxic, so i'll eat it". Well, you see, you have to look at the text. -
I am not obliged to answer your questions. I gave you some of my opinions. Whether you accept them or not is your choice. But don't tell me that I HAVE to answer your question or that what I said is wrong, etc.
Eat what you want. Look at the Quran. If you dont believe me, then thats not my problem. Go ahead and eat the brain, etc. but dont say that I didnt warn you!
Peace
Peace...
Now you made me very angry! LOL ;D
- I don't need to go and see the christians if they are fine or not... Evil is of 2 kinds, the apparent and clear one which everyone can see and the second is hidden... So maybe they seem healthy but they are not. Also, we just had the swine flu outbreak, so time to re-think some stuff.
2.You are never obliged to answer and I never implied it that way. You are a participant as well as me.
You do not get my point at all.. I am not all guns at you. A question is being asked and we are discussing on it, thats all...
ANYWAYS...
I got some clarification for you and everyone else, feel free to answer and discuss on it.
I think that LAHM (meat) as used in the Quran is not restricted to only the Flesh of the animal but it covers all the EATABLE stuff from the animal... That include bones, marrow, brain, tongue, fat etc....
Look at these verses.
And We shall bestow on them fruit and meat in abundance - whatever they may desire.5222
and with the flesh of any fowl that they may desire.5621
And He it is who has made the sea subservient , so that you might eat fresh meat from it, and take from it gems which you may wear. And on that one sees ships ploughing through the waves, so that you might go forth in quest of some of His bounty, and thus have cause to be grateful .1614
In all these verses the word LAHM is used.
Let me talk on the first 2 verses, 5222 and 5621
The verses say that the any LAHM the people pf Paradise will desire, they will get it. The question is, do we only eat pure flesh, or we eat flesh with some bones and so on. Infact, lots of people even dislike and hate to eat pure flesh and prefer to eat 'entre-cote', ribs surrounded with meat... Some people like to eat the legs, especially the marrow inside the bones, some people like the brain and so on... So, if such people get into Paradise, will they get just pure flesh when they desire to eat some fat or bones along?
The second verse talks about the flesh of birds... can flesh of birds not contain bones? Even the skin is left with the flesh most of the time as it is so thin. Can you eat the chicken flesh only without the fat? impossible...
Now you can say that the stuff we will eat in Paradise will be different from the one we have here and we eat... However, there is a verse in Surah Baqarah which says that the food from Paradise will be similar to the ones we have and eat here. Look 225
Now the third verse talks about fishes from the sea.. LAHM TWARIYAN means fresh meat. Fresh meat here means the whole fish, with bones, fats and everything. Its not 100% meat... even tough, the word LAHM is used to refer to fish.
To end up.
I will say that LAHM does not means only the flesh from the animal but all the other eatable parts.
May Allah guide us
Peace
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Peace...
Now you made me very angry! LOL ;D
- I don't need to go and see the christians if they are fine or not... Evil is of 2 kinds, the apparent and clear one which everyone can see and the second is hidden... So maybe they seem healthy but they are not. Also, we just had the swine flu outbreak, so time to re-think some stuff.
2.You are never obliged to answer and I never implied it that way. You are a participant as well as me.
You do not get my point at all.. I am not all guns at you. A question is being asked and we are discussing on it, thats all...
ANYWAYS...
I got some clarification for you and everyone else, feel free to answer and discuss on it.
I think that LAHM (meat) as used in the Quran is not restricted to only the Flesh of the animal but it covers all the EATABLE stuff from the animal... That include bones, marrow, brain, tongue, fat etc....
Look at these verses.
In all these verses the word LAHM is used.Let me talk on the first 2 verses, 5222 and 5621
The verses say that the any LAHM the people pf Paradise will desire, they will get it. The question is, do we only eat pure flesh, or we eat flesh with some bones and so on. Infact, lots of people even dislike and hate to eat pure flesh and prefer to eat 'entre-cote', ribs surrounded with meat... Some people like to eat the legs, especially the marrow inside the bones, some people like the brain and so on... So, if such people get into Paradise, will they get just pure flesh when they desire to eat some fat or bones along?
The second verse talks about the flesh of birds... can flesh of birds not contain bones? Even the skin is left with the flesh most of the time as it is so thin. Can you eat the chicken flesh only without the fat? impossible...
Now you can say that the stuff we will eat in Paradise will be different from the one we have here and we eat... However, there is a verse in Surah Baqarah which says that the food from Paradise will be similar to the ones we have and eat here. Look 225
Now the third verse talks about fishes from the sea.. LAHM TWARIYAN means fresh meat. Fresh meat here means the whole fish, with bones, fats and everything. Its not 100% meat... even tough, the word LAHM is used to refer to fish.
To end up.
I will say that LAHM does not means only the flesh from the animal but all the other eatable parts.
May Allah guide us
Peace
Peace
Lam-Ha-Miim = flesh/meat, to feed with flesh, skin/hide/cloth
Now we have to look at two very important verses in the Quran...
first of all this one
6145 Qul la ajidu feema oohiyailayya muharraman AAala taAAimin yatAAamuhuilla an yakoona maytatan aw daman masfoohan aw lahmakhinzeerin fa-innahu rijsun aw fisqan ohilla lighayri Allahibihi famani idturra ghayra baghin wala AAadinfa-inna rabbaka ghafoorun raheemun
6145 Say, "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden for an eater except that it be already dead, or blood poured forth, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Compassionate.
The second crucial verse is the following
6146 For those who are Jewish, We forbade all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
Do you see how exact these prohibitions are?
So we can conclude the following- The meat of pigs is forbidden (YES, this includes their brains)
- The fat of pigs is lawful
- As for bones, there might still be parts of the meat of the pigs on/inside them, so I'd stay away from those.
What do you guys think about gelatine?
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Salaam
The fat is expressly mentioned and outlined very well in this verse, there is no disagreement on that. The question is, why has God outlined the FAT from the rest? Just because it forms part of the LAHM. And the verse project the same image when it says except those mixed with the back, bones etc... meaning the fat forms part of all these.
However... I was talking about the use of the word LAHM. Did you consider the verses I posted above... Do you think they mean only pure flesh? That is the question.. What is the true and most logical meaning the word LAHM is conveying as per the Quran.
The verse says we get LAHM TWARIYAN from the sea and rivers... do fisherman only catch pure flesh in their hooks when they fish? Does it make sense? Look at the word used in that verse, fish is known as samakah or hoot... However, the work LAHM is used and not samakah. It is no secret that we get fat also from fishes as well as oil. Try to understand what I am trying to say.
May Allah guide us.
Wasalaam
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Salaam,
Got some new blinks in my mind.
From the very verse you posted, the very verse you posted, the 6146... it make us know that even the entrails and bones are eatable... And if the fat was stuck with them, then there is no harm in eating them.
The point I want to make is, there is no verse from the Quran which tells us that from the cattle we get meat + bones + entrails + fat to eat... All verses say that we get LAHM from the cattle...
And the 6146 is being very specific to filter the fat from the LAHM as it forms part of it.
Forgot to reply on the gelatin, gelatin is obtained mostly from the bones... But my opinion is, nothing can be consume from the pig as per my understanding.
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Forgot to reply on the gelatin, gelatin is obtained mostly from the bones... But my opinion is, nothing can be consume from the pig as per my understanding.
You then misunderstood/did not understand the verses from the Quran. The fat is NOT "lahm". It is 100% lawful. Please remember 6146 and how SPECIFIC the prohibitions were for the Jews.
Furthermore, in 6146 "lahm"/meat IS NOT MENTIONED.
6146 WaAAala allatheena hadooharramna kulla thee thufurinwamina albaqari waalghanami harramnaAAalayhim shuhoomahuma illa ma hamalatthuhooruhuma awi alhawayaaw ma ikhtalata biAAathmin thalikajazaynahum bibaghyihim wa-inna lasadiqoona
6146 For those who are Jewish, We forbade all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
This proves that the fat is lawful. I have NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER regarding that issue. Absolutely no doubt. As for gelatine...I am not sure. It is not "lahm" so technically it shouldnt be forbidden.
However, the brain is absolutely forbidden. It is part of the "lahm". I have no doubt regarding that issue.Peace
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You then misunderstood/did not understand the verses from the Quran. The fat is NOT "lahm". It is 100% lawful. Please remember 6146 and how SPECIFIC the prohibitions were for the Jews.
Furthermore, in 6146 "lahm"/meat IS NOT MENTIONED.
6146 WaAAala allatheena hadooharramna kulla thee thufurinwamina albaqari waalghanami harramnaAAalayhim shuhoomahuma illa ma hamalatthuhooruhuma awi alhawayaaw ma ikhtalata biAAathmin thalikajazaynahum bibaghyihim wa-inna lasadiqoona
6146 For those who are Jewish, We forbade all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
This proves that the fat is lawful. I have NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER regarding that issue. Absolutely no doubt. As for gelatine...I am not sure. It is not "lahm" so technically it shouldnt be forbidden.
However, the brain is absolutely forbidden. It is part of the "lahm". I have no doubt regarding that issue.Peace
Peace
Here God says "We forbade all that have claws", not the MEAT of those with claws. Meaning the whole of the animal is prohibited.
But when God tells us to not eat the flesh of the pig, He is being specific to the flesh. The same when He is prohibiting the fat of cattle and sheep to the Jews. Also, when prohibiting the fat, God further specifies what fat is OK.
That is what I understand at the moment so please let me know if there is anything wrong of my understanding.Regarding the reason why the flesh of pigs is prohibited yet those who eat the flesh do not get ill from it, can it be a test?
Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed
We eat the meat of animals of claws and the fat of cattle and sheep and we don't get ill. So for the present Jews, even though the food prohibited to them doesn't cause illness, they cannot consume it as it is a test.
Can the prohibition of the flesh of the pig also be a test for all those who were prohibited from eating its flesh?
God bless
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Peace
Here God says "We forbade all that have claws", not the MEAT of those with claws. Meaning the whole of the animal is prohibited.
But when God tells us to not eat the flesh of the pig, He is being specific to the flesh. The same when He is prohibiting the fat of cattle and sheep to the Jews. Also, when prohibiting the fat, God further specifies what fat is OK.
That is what I understand at the moment so please let me know if there is anything wrong of my understanding.Regarding the reason why the flesh of pigs is prohibited yet those who eat the flesh do not get ill from it, can it be a test?
Then we revealed to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming previous scriptures, and superseding them. You shall rule among them in accordance with GOD's revelations, and do not follow their wishes if they differ from the truth that came to you. For each of you, we have decreed laws and different rites. Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He thus puts you to the test through the revelations He has given each of you. You shall compete in righteousness. To GOD is your final destiny - all of you - then He will inform you of everything you had disputed
We eat the meat of animals of claws and the fat of cattle and sheep and we don't get ill. So for the present Jews, even though the food prohibited to them doesn't cause illness, they cannot consume it as it is a test.
Can the prohibition of the flesh of the pig also be a test for all those who were prohibited from eating its flesh?
God bless
6145 Say, "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden for an eater except that it be already dead, or blood poured forth, or the meat of pig, for it is foul/contaminated; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Compassionate.
The Jews made-up their own prohibitions just like today's Sunnis/Shias. God punished them with more prohibitions. God is inviting the Jews though back to the original prohibitions (i believe). Remember, Jesus wanted to lessen the prohibitions for the Jews - check the Quran.
Peace
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You then misunderstood/did not understand the verses from the Quran. The fat is NOT "lahm". It is 100% lawful. Please remember 6146 and how SPECIFIC the prohibitions were for the Jews.
Furthermore, in 6146 "lahm"/meat IS NOT MENTIONED.
6146 WaAAala allatheena hadooharramna kulla thee thufurinwamina albaqari waalghanami harramnaAAalayhim shuhoomahuma illa ma hamalatthuhooruhuma awi alhawayaaw ma ikhtalata biAAathmin thalikajazaynahum bibaghyihim wa-inna lasadiqoona
6146 For those who are Jewish, We forbade all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
This proves that the fat is lawful. I have NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER regarding that issue. Absolutely no doubt. As for gelatine...I am not sure. It is not "lahm" so technically it shouldnt be forbidden.
However, the brain is absolutely forbidden. It is part of the "lahm". I have no doubt regarding that issue.Peace
You are taking the 6146 in isolation while it is in straight relation with 6145 and continuing it. The word LAHM is mentioned in 6145. Also, it seems that you are totally disregarding the other verses i posted. How will you explain the other verses for the fish and so on? Also, news1988 raised a good point regarding the claws.
If we take verses from the Quran in isolation and derive rule from them, we risk of not finding the real truth. Because the Quran EXPLAINS itself by itself. So, ayahs should complement one another... For instance your logic works perfectly when you look at 6146 in isolation... However, if you will take time to look at the verses I posted regarding fish etc... You will surely find yourself with some obstruction and you are forced to find the right way which will make these verses agree with one another.
Regarding the brains, how can you be 100% its flesh? We all know its jelly like, more fat that flesh. However, forget this one else we will be going in circle without achieving anything.
Salaam
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Peace,
Interesting conversation this one. It sought me to re-examine my understanding, however not to worry, my interpretation is not important.
I wanted to comment on what the brain is made of Neurones and Glial cells. Although the myelin coating neurones is 70% lipid (fat) the rest of the cell is not, so the brain is like any other 'entrail' it is made of specialised cells and not chiefly protein or fat.
Please bear in mind that the majority of capsules you would eat as medication have gelatin shells. In the UK manufacturers are tending to use synthesised forms of gelatin as opposed to that derived from pocine or bovine sources because of possible germs the gelatin could contain. In this situation that you are taking pork gelatin along with your medecine - would this be allowed? In my opinion it doesn't matter because you are taking the medication in a 'pork wrapper' and correct the gelatin is not derived from the flesh/muscle tissue, but from bone then you are allowed to take it. I do not believe that God would make life that difficult for us, although the world is moving away from deriving these essentials from animals due to germs.
In the quranic context, the sign about what was forbidden for the Jews is significant, and indeed we must take the whole quran to seek all answers about this, at the moment most of us, including I are just providing opinions based on limited information - lets dig deeper...
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Peace,
Interesting conversation this one. It sought me to re-examine my understanding, however not to worry, my interpretation is not important.
I wanted to comment on what the brain is made of Neurones and Glial cells. Although the myelin coating neurones is 70% lipid (fat) the rest of the cell is not, so the brain is like any other 'entrail' it is made of specialised cells and not chiefly protein or fat.
Please bear in mind that the majority of capsules you would eat as medication have gelatin shells. In the UK manufacturers are tending to use synthesised forms of gelatin as opposed to that derived from pocine or bovine sources because of possible germs the gelatin could contain. In this situation that you are taking pork gelatin along with your medecine - would this be allowed? In my opinion it doesn't matter because you are taking the medication in a 'pork wrapper' and correct the gelatin is not derived from the flesh/muscle tissue, but from bone then you are allowed to take it. I do not believe that God would make life that difficult for us, although the world is moving away from deriving these essentials from animals due to germs.
In the quranic context, the sign about what was forbidden for the Jews is significant, and indeed we must take the whole quran to seek all answers about this, at the moment most of us, including I are just providing opinions based on limited information - lets dig deeper...
Salaam
Thanks for the input... Always nice to get new opinions and views.
Thanks for the brains D
As regard to medication, if there is no other alternative and we badly need this, then I THINK its not a problem to take it. Since life depends on it and is more important. However, as for candies and so on... well, we cannot say we do not have other options... All life threatening situations are exceptional situations.
However, since you mentioned that BRAIN can be counted among the entrails, the immediate question that comes to the mind is, are we allowed to eat it? Because the word ENTRAILS (HAWAAYAA) has been used in the Quran and in the prohibition for pig, only LAHM is mentioned and not HAWAAYAA... I hope you guys are getting my point.
My view remain unchanged so far, LAHM does not restrict only to the pure flesh, but convey the meaning of all eatable stuff from an animal.
Wassalaam
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You are taking the 6146 in isolation while it is in straight relation with 6145 and continuing it. The word LAHM is mentioned in 6145. Also, it seems that you are totally disregarding the other verses i posted. How will you explain the other verses for the fish and so on? Also, news1988 raised a good point regarding the claws.
If we take verses from the Quran in isolation and derive rule from them, we risk of not finding the real truth. Because the Quran EXPLAINS itself by itself. So, ayahs should complement one another... For instance your logic works perfectly when you look at 6146 in isolation... However, if you will take time to look at the verses I posted regarding fish etc... You will surely find yourself with some obstruction and you are forced to find the right way which will make these verses agree with one another.
Regarding the brains, how can you be 100% its flesh? We all know its jelly like, more fat that flesh. However, forget this one else we will be going in circle without achieving anything.
Salaam
Peace,
yes a circular arguement could occur and i dont want that to happen.
However, I'll give you an exampleYou give a plate french fries and fat to a vegetarian. You dont tell him what kind of fat and he eats it, because it's not meat. Furthermore, if he/she is not a radical vegetarian, and you tell him/her, then he/she will eat it.
However if you give him/her a brain, regardless of what animal, he/she will refuse to eat it. I guarantee you.
OK, regarding the point that "lahm" means all that is eatable of the animal...
This is totally illogical. Why? Because God is talking about prohibitions for eaters/food prohibitions. So God will only prohibit what is eat/drinkable, right? He will not say "say i do not find anything in the revelations given to me prohinbited for an eater except if it is jewelery, sand and stones", right?
So the verse is dealing with anything that we can eat/drink.So what would be the logic in using the word "lahm" if the whole pig is prohibited for consumprion?
Why did God out in the very next verse the specific prohibitions for Jews with exact references to the different fats in the cattle (or whatever animal it was)?? It was to show how exact the prohibitions are that God makes.
When God prohibits meat, he prohibits meat; when he prohibits fat, he prohibits fat, and nothing else.
Hope you understand this.
Peace -
Peace
Aha, thanks for that.
But what about today's Jews? Would the verse I gave in my last post apply to them?
God bless
Remember that God is inviting the Jews to abide by the the Quran. And remember that the Quran sometimes supersedes the previous scriptures (Gospels and Torah).
I also think that these were the original prohibitons, but it might not be the case.
Peace
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Remember that God is inviting the Jews to abide by the the Quran. And remember that the Quran sometimes supersedes the previous scriptures (Gospels and Torah).
I also think that these were the original prohibitons, but it might not be the case.
Peace
Dear Progressive
May I ask you how do you include "brain" in "meat". Brain is a different tissue than "flesh " which is muscular tissue.
Flesh i.e muscular tissue has the property to conctract.Have you ever seen brain "contracting and relaxing" like flesh ????
Regards -
Dear Progressive
May I ask you how do you include "brain" in "meat". Brain is a different tissue than "flesh " which is muscular tissue.
Flesh i.e muscular tissue has the property to conctract.Have you ever seen brain "contracting and relaxing" like flesh ????
RegardsHe just replied in his earlier post that when presented to a person, he will surely ask what is it before he eats it... A logic which do not stand at all as the for someone to question or not lies 100% in the discretion of the person and is not a generality.
On the other hand, if we take the BRAIN to be among the entrails, then again, according to progressive, it becomes lawful to consume it as there is no TEXTUAL prohibition on the entrails of the pig...
@progressive.
How would you reconcile the verse on the LAHM TWARIYAN? The fish from rivers and seas... Its pointless to discuss the minute precision emplyed in the Quran as both me and you are convince on that. The point is reconciliating all the verses and harmonize them... If you can look again, that would be very good. We know that Allah does not lack words.. the work fish has been used in the Quran as HOOT... however, why did Allah used the word LAHM and not hoot?
To give you a clue, we do not get only fish from the sea but sea cucumbers as well...
The issue is a bit intriguing, however we can come to a concensus God willing...
Wassalaam