Defenition of marriage suggests sex before marriage permitted?!
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dr shabbir? who is that?
Sry, mixed up the names, because i have been reading stuff on ortbeacon.org, which is the website of another Quran-aloner, Dr. Ahmed Shabbir. It is Dr. Shahrour.
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Not very different of promiscuity. Well, it is promiscuity all right. The only link in the chain that would be decent seems to be the married woman. And with the fun going around I wonder how many of them would not feel like perfect idiots with the husband having fun, girls and divorced having fun, and them becoming the laughing stock around. Because from what he says, the women mamalakat aymanu those happy would be with wouldn't be bound to faithfulness. So what woman would not be tempted to discontinue marriage when everybody has so much fun without that bore. In fact why not become all mma and make fun universal?
Like somebody has just said regarding children, what is so much insistence on keeping married women to the task for the sake of knowing whose child is which and then have all those extra marital possibly producing children of whom the father can wash his hands.
And then it is really ashtonishing that the honoured Qur'an goes to such lengths again and again to bring to our minds the plights of the orphans and the unprotected so that somebody comes afterwards and tells you that, who cares, you just go and do your thing, and the devil take care of what comes after...
I do not care if the chap, who may have done other worthy things from what I hear, has really plugged some technical holes in this theory, like to make sure that the zina ayas leave scope to imagine that the men can have sex outside marriage because it hasen't been millimetrically made explicit that it also goes for married men, it doesn't matter, it leaves holes of sense that are too big and too contradictory of the whole of the Qur'an, like going all out for the sake of orphans on one side, and fabricating them deliberately on the other. Like telling people to free slaves and then telling them to get some as they like more provided they do not steal them.
Harebrained.
Salaam
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Peace truthseeker11,
Your quote from ? Reply #19 on May 06, 2009, 011728 AM ?
?There is no word for hands there. I could not find even a single entry of "right hand" under YMN in Lane Lexicon. It can mean "right" or "oath". So "ma malakat aymanukum" can mean "those possessed by your right" which does not make any sense, or "those possessed by your oath", which makes perfect sense according to the context.?
I am questioning your claim ?makes perfect sense?
It will be better for you if you say ?it is my opinion? or ?according to my understanding?. Otherwise one can conclude that you have received revelation from the God or a direct communiqu? with the God regarding the matter.
If you insist in your way then please let me know when you will have the next communication with the God as I will request you to clarify certain things for me.
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True, he could have said "use contraception" or something. But what do you think about Dr. Shahrour's arguement as a whole?
Huruf puts it well, it goes against the general themes of respecting one another in the Quran. I'd add that the way Dr. Shahrour tries to insert the theme of "consent" is very opportunistic. He seems to think that women must take responsibility for what they consent to, but men don't have to take responsibility for what the actively engage in doing? He doesn't have a very sophisticated understanding of rights and responsibilities.
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The problem is not with Shahrour alone, but with everyone, qur'aan aloner or traditionalist, who forgets that females, too, can have maa malakat aymaanuhunna as per the qur'aan, and that the qur'aan speaks of maa malakat aymaanukum OR your spouses, not both at the same time. When they realize this, they will have only one way maa malakat aymaanukum are spouses, albeit a special kind for a special category.
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Peace truthseeker11,
Your quote from Reply #19 on May 06, 2009, 011728 AM
There is no word for hands there. I could not find even a single entry of "right hand" under YMN in Lane Lexicon. It can mean "right" or "oath". So "ma malakat aymanukum" can mean "those possessed by your right" which does not make any sense, or "those possessed by your oath", which makes perfect sense according to the context.
I am questioning your claim makes perfect sense
It will be better for you if you say it is my opinion or according to my understanding. Otherwise one can conclude that you have received revelation from the God or a direct communiqu with the God regarding the matter.
If you insist in your way then please let me know when you will have the next communication with the God as I will request you to clarify certain things for me.
You're expecting too much from him..
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The problem is not with Shahrour alone, but with everyone, qur'aan aloner or traditionalist, who forgets that females, too, can have maa malakat aymaanuhunna as per the qur'aan, and that the qur'aan speaks of maa malakat aymaanukum OR your spouses, not both at the same time. When they realize this, they will have only one way maa malakat aymaanukum are spouses, albeit a special kind for a special category.
He said that women can also have "ma malakat aymanuhunna".
Fact is that a sexual relationship can only be done either through marriage or with the "right hand possession"/the one who is under one's contract. -
I think the doctor has a very negative attitude towards women and children. People, who don't think men have a responsibility towards their children, are scum.
And it's from the same guy who believes in Bukhari's book, saying Muhammad allowed temporary prostitution. rotfl rotfl
IMO right hand possession is referring to slaves, or people you are committed to, not like the example above where men get to screw women just because they're horny.
If you "possess" a woman she's pretty much your house slave. Only that, she wants to be. I mean when you buy someone from the slave market they're not forced to go with you right? They only go with you if they want to. If a woman slave decides to go with a man buyer, she should pretty much know she and him are gonna being doing it.
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And it's from the same guy who believes in Bukhari's book, saying Muhammad allowed temporary prostitution. rotfl rotfl
IMO right hand possession is referring to slaves, or people you are committed to, not like the example above where men get to screw women just because they're horny.
If you "possess" a woman she's pretty much your house slave. Only that, she wants to be. I mean when you buy someone from the slave market they're not forced to go with you right? They only go with you if they want to. If a woman slave decides to go with a man buyer, she should pretty much know she and him are gonna being doing it.
I think that Shahrour is wrong on this count and I do not know from when is that interview or whether he has upheld before or after the most chocking implications of this theory about MMA, but I do not think he is propounding enslavement of women, because as Samia and others have pointed out before, following the Qur'an, and Shahrour acknowledges this, women are as much capable of having MMA as males. Of course when the whole picture is laid down, the result is awfully schewed against women, because when something is thought out witht he convenience of males in mind, it would be surprising, even if applied to women, that the convenience of women would be equally served.
I think we must keep working on the content of the term MMA, and although I have not yet checked everything through, an I haven't therefore closed the matter for myself, Samia's idea of it being a kind of marriage may merit some consideration.
Salaam
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Peace nimnimak_11,
We will use two verses from the Quran to answer your inquary. We will have to assume that there in no conrtadiction in the Qurran and therefore the example cited below is consistence with the Quranic law.
2827-He said, "I wish to offer one of my two daughters for you to marry, in return for working for me for eight pilgrimages; if you make them ten, it will be voluntary on your part. I do not wish to make this matter too difficult for you. You will find me, GOD willing, righteous."
2828 - He said, "It is an agreement between me and you. Whichever period I fulfill, you will not be averse to either one. GOD is the guarantor of what we said."
A believer will do the following prior to having sex with spouse
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Marriage proposal (in this case father is proposing onbehalf of daughter)
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A dowry arrangement/agreement
Verbal agreement between two parties where the God is the guarantor or
Written agreement withness by two men (my deduction from avove fact s+Quran)
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Acceptance of the agreement/proposal
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Sex after fulfilling the above three requirements. That's all. This is marriage from the Quran
Personally, I think the agreement where the God is the granter is more stringent than the other option. Because in this case the punishment will be very sever if the promise is violated compared to the worldly agreement where the matter is settled in this world.
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Peace
If you "possess" a woman she's pretty much your house slave. Only that, she wants to be. I mean when you buy someone from the slave market they're not forced to go with you right? They only go with you if they want to. If a woman slave decides to go with a man buyer, she should pretty much know she and him are gonna being doing it.
o
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^What?
And to everyone, I think the main discussion is about the meaning of "right hands possess", not what and what doesn't constitute a marriage. Pretty sure the definition of marriage is clear. Contract and witnesses, right? This sounds very clear. "Right hands possess" however, isn't as clear but from what I can see it's who you OWN, and what else can you own but slaves?
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^What?
And to everyone, I think the main discussion is about the meaning of "right hands possess", not what and what doesn't constitute a marriage. Pretty sure the definition of marriage is clear. Contract and witnesses, right? This sounds very clear. "Right hands possess" however, isn't as clear but from what I can see it's who you OWN, and what else can you own but slaves?
So you're trying to say you can have sex with your slaves because you own them?
Even if your idea of MMA was correct, I thought you cannot have sex outside marriage
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Peace Meteora,
?And to everyone, I think the main discussion is about the meaning of "right hands possess", not what and what doesn't constitute a marriage?
If you took time to read the first three (3) posts of this thread then you would have known the objective of this post. May I ask why you didn?t try to find the answer yourself? More importantly if you do not know the objective then how would you add value to the thread. Anyway, here are some relevant quotes from the first three posts
?What i'm questioning is the concept of marriage.
I'm suggesting that the Quranic concept and description of marriage is pretty much the same as a couple in today's society.??I've been thinking about sex before marriage for a while in terms of whether it is morally acceptable in my mind/heart.
I concluded yes.?I hope now it is clear to you that the thread is about Quranic definition of marriage and if that definition supports the living arrangement of today's couple. I recommend you read the whole thread to determine the best answer. If you have a better answer, please provide it to us. Thanks.
Please remember that Quran is easy to understand. Therefore, finding an answer to said straightforward question should be quick, short and sweet for the believer.
MMA should not be discussed on this thread because ?couple in today's society? does not = MMA. Our target should be efficient answer to the question at hand.
Peace siki,
Please refer to your post on May 26, 2009, where you said ? This is going to be my 1000th post, yay and I am likely to be earning the 4th and final star. I thank HIM for choosing me to help his creation by improving understanding of his last and final scripture?
You sound like the fourth star is coming from the God or it is authorized by the God.
In reality these stars are given by web site without any Quranic criteria. This is an unquranic behavior and you are subscribing to it. Here is why
- A hypocrite gets four star by posting 1000 posts
- A person posts 1000 non-quality posts and get four stars
- A Muslim posts 1000 posts and gets four stars
- A believer posts 1000 posts and gets four stars
- A messenger of the God posts 10 good posts but gets no star
I hope you get my point of how worthless these stars are. People of understanding will reject it out-rite. On the other hand you rejoice in getting them to the point you have kept a daily account of it. Therefore, I must question your motive. Are you posting for the sake of achieving stars or for the good of you and others? You may have good intention but your behavior shows otherwise. Maybe the website will give certificate to Heaven when one reaches 10,000 posts or more.
You also said ?......and never let my ego or personal likes/dislikes comes in the way..........?. But I found your post that said ?For all who are posting to resolve this issue? quite egoistic in nature for the following reasons
You were giving direction as if you are the originator of this thread except that you were not
You disrespected the thread owner by doing so, in my opinion
You portrayed yourself as the one in control
If it was your thread then there is no problemI may agree with some of the things you said except that it wasn't your place to say it. I am providing these comments as constructive criticism. I hope you don't take it in a negative sense. We have to be mindful of others at all time.
Peace huruf,
?Congratulations also to siki for his 1000th post, great achievement in trying to polish the unpolished, and also for his n-th "you women who suck to the feminist western brainwash" post which I find so funny, unlike the rest which are more serious.?
Instead of correcting an unquranic behavior you are applauding it. I hope this was unintentional and an honest mistake. We should always critique our own write-up before publishing it.
Peace truthseeker11,
?...the couple can expose their private parts...? prior to Quranic marriage is the most ridiculous thing I have heard. Why limit your rationale to ?don't like each other's private parts? only. How about fertility? How do you satisfy this important criterion without having sex prior to marriage?
Also, oath is something that one does not wish to go back on whereas marriage proposal could be violated prior to the first sexual relation.
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Peace,
MMA are the slave girls. She is not a slave per se but she is something like 'adopted', the burden is actually on you! If you give them the gift and get their families permission, they are still called MMA. Actually this solves alot of problems in societies!
Peace,
Rami
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Peace,
MMA are the slave girls. She is not a slave per se but she is something like 'adopted', the burden is actually on you! If you give them the gift and get their families permission, they are still called MMA. Actually this solves alot of problems in societies!
Peace,
Rami
Can this also be valid
MMA are slave boys. He is not a slave per se but he is something like "adopted", the burden is actuALLY ON YOU! If you accept a gift from them and got their families permission, they are still called MMA. Actually this also solves a lot of the problems of problems an societies! -
Can this also be valid
MMA are slave boys. He is not a slave per se but he is something like "adopted", the burden is actuALLY ON YOU! If you accept a gift from them and got their families permission, they are still called MMA. Actually this also solves a lot of the problems of problems an societies!Yeah but dont take a gift from more than one man at a time.
&
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How many girls are you going to give gifts to? Wil these girls be in addition to a wife? Then I am afraid, same here ;D
Just tell me where to find these "boys" and "girls" eatI can have multiple wives, you can have one husband. If you had more than one husband, to whom ur children will belong??
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I can have multiple wives, you can have one husband. If you had more than one husband, to whom ur children will belong??
What if I am sterile? Too old to have more children, but young enough to have many husbands? Can have children and will choose my husbands from different races? Know the father of my child by intuition? Distribute them as I like and the husbands wont know? Arrange it in any other way...?