Ribaa
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Peace Johnny
Sorry about late reply.
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Like I said, I see what you're saying, and I would like to see it this way, but am careful on this issue. See my 1st line in reply. One of the main reasons I am investigating this issue is that I know that the God will not instruct us in anything that is impossible to fulfil, will not put a burden on us greater than we can bear. My previous research has led me to the conclusions I have reached. These conclusions seem impossible to uphold. Therefore I am looking for more insight in the matter.JK- Ok so you came to a certain conclusion and so did i. The point is we now have to discuss the issue and find the flaw and the +ve points in our arguments so we can come closer to the truth.
I have not yet reached the same conclusion as you have. What I am saying is that removing yourself from interest totally seems impossible. This may just be due to a lack of commitment on my side or any other number of reasons. Your view does demonstrate some merit. However, I am making certain assumptions for the purpose of exploring your view. Thge main assumption being your concept of fiat currency. I don't necessarily agree with your concept of fiat currency, but the assumption of fiat cuurency as a commodity is necessary in order explore your view.
AS for finding the flaws and positive points, I think that this requires a discussin involving many areas of the economy. The issue of ribaa then, based onthe assumption that fiat currency is a legitimate commodity, is at hand.
Can commodities be rented out? If they can be rented out, are their any rules pertaining to these rental agreements that can be extracted from AQ? Does the renting out f commodities constitute ribaa? These are the question I have. They may seem to have obvious answers, but please indulge me with an opinion as I am trying to formulate an opinion at the moment.
JK- Ofcourse an interest contract with a normal registered bank, NOT a credit shark, can be considered just. It's just like renting a car from any of the registered car rental companies whom we know to the best of our knowledge are trustworthy. As for the terms they are laid out by the car rental or bank in advance. You can either accept them or you do not need to borrow from them.
The problem I find with thsi reasoning is that, as you metioned in an earlier post the law of creation of money could be considered as fraud by the banks, but has nothing to do with ribaa. If this is, in fact the case, we should certainly not be dealing with these institutuions as we are then perpetuating this fraud. AQ tells us not to aid an evil cause and surely fraud is an evil cause.
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I don't think that we can make a distinction between acceptable interest and unacceptable interest (or simple and compound). The principle should stand either way.JK- MAN now your back to square one. I told you currency is an ASSET, the most liquid one too just like cars, houses, platinum, diamonds etc. Thus if the latter can be rent out so can currency and this is termed as interest. It has nothing to do with riba
I am back to square one because it was a passing thought that made its way to my post. Like I said, I don't necessarily agree with your view on the legitimacy of fiat currency. We will not deal with this issue now, so my apologies for it creeping backinto the discussion.
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Let's leave this for another discussion as I am looking for clarification on ribaa and as you have said it is a seperate issue. So we will go ahead with paper money being an asset for the purposes of this discussion.JK- Not only paper money but currency. When you borrow money from a bank you usually do so electronically, the currency being transferred to your account, NOT taking paper money out.
Even though this is for another discussion, if we need to refer to this currency, we should refer to it as fiat currency.
There is a view among some people that the system of Islam is essentially a socialist one. Even in an economic sense. I have been reading articles by various groups and individuals on their views regarding an Islamic economic system. It seems that the the authors of the argument for a socialist economic system have been able to justify their stance clearly from AQ whereas those promoting a free market system with social responsibility seem to rely more on interpretations of economic theory than quoting its basis from AQ. It may just be that the free market proponents I have read have just not referenced AQ enough or in an effective manner, but I woud like your view on this. It may seem slightly off topic, but what I am trying to establish is whther or not we are living in an economic environment that is compatible with the laws of AQ.
Peace
Imraan
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Peace Imran,
Can commodities be rented out? If they can be rented out, are their any rules pertaining to these rental agreements that can be extracted from AQ? Does the renting out f commodities constitute ribaa? These are the question I have. They may seem to have obvious answers, but please indulge me with an opinion as I am trying to formulate an opinion at the moment.
I think rent can be charged for commodity ONLY if that commodity is being used personally. That rent should be equal in amount to the amount the owner will have to spend out of pocket to pay for an alternate commodity due to not being able to use it. For example, I own a car which I am actually using and my friend wants to rent the car from me. He should pay me the amount I will need to arrange alternate similar transport for myself as rent.
If, however, I have excess commodities that I am not actually using, then I cannot charge rent on them but can only sell them, because in such a case the rent would be "ribaa"/unfair increase. I will get my commodity back plus some extra assets. I can rent such a commodity only if the renter gets percentage ownership of the commodity in proportion to the amount paid as rent.
Charging of interest/rent on currency of intrinsic value will similarly be not ribaa if that currency was part of the owner's needs and was being actively used, but will be ribaa if it was excess currency laying around and not being actively used. If we give out of the excess money and get principal + extra money in the form of interest back ---> that will be "ribaa"/unfair increase.
We can, however, make a business investment with our excess money with someone and then get the principal + extra money back in the form of percentage of profit ---> that is "bia3"; or we can buy low and sell high at a price mutually agreed by both parties or exchange it with another commodity ---> that is also "bia3"; or we can lend our excess money to someone to help start their business and then they can pay the original principal back without any interest and the net effect will have been helping that person in the way of God. We do need to keep giving at least 20 % of our excess money in the way of God in form of charity without expecting it back. I think this is how "ribaa" is contrasted with "bia3" and charity in AQ.
I agree that the current fiat currency system in which currency is not backed up by anything of intrinsic value and money is being created from thin air leads to an "unfair increase" and is the same as "ribaa". This system is evil and results in a vicious cycle that will eventually lead to complete collapse of the economic system, and needs to be completely abolished in a community based on AQ. Unfortunately there is no such community in existence in the world at this time so our first effort should be to establish such a community. This would require a lot of striving with our wealth and time and is what defines a "momin".
Please see the following mind blowing video about the current evil system of money as debt and its origins and repercussions
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279&ei=y8faSMzyCoL8rALJtainCw&q
This understanding is mine alone and could easily be flawed so constructive criticisms backed by Quranic evidence are welcome to help improve my understanding or come to a better one. I would, however, prefer to read the criticism from the sidelines and not actively participate in a debate about my understanding at this time.
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Peace 1CELOSTNOWFOUND,
I also have a very similar view on ribaa anything that is unlawful increase in wealth.
for example i see what is done in society today
Moneyuse Money to buy --> Patatoes from farm sell in supermarkets for more Money
so what we see here is Money < Money usury?? or trading? the purpose was to get more money...
now is there any verse in the AQ that would support this as not being a good thing?
Surah 83 perhaps?831 Woe to those who cheat.
832 Those who when they are receiving any measure from the people, they take it in full.
833 And when they are the ones giving measure or weight, they give less than due.They give less then due to us? and get full measure from the farmers??
I remember when I worked in a corner store it completly works like this everything is bought from a source and sold more expensive.
where as if you are a source then you can give directly to the people.
Is it possible to be a source?? yes.... just become a farmer.but here again we have the problem how do we get the land in the first place if everything is interest? so we have to work with interest and use it??
until we dont have to anymore?? And what do we tell the person who is selling the land? is this fair? wouldnt i be a cheater too? -
Peace all,
THank you fo your valuable input on this issue. I have however decided to discuss this issue in a broader sense, viz. Economic System of the Quran. It can be found here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597204.0
Please participate in this discussion if you can.
Imraan
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peace barmack,
It seems you fail to take into account what is involved in buying the potato from the farmer and selling it in the supermarket. What about time, sourcing, transport, packaging, promotion/advertising, complying with any standards that are in place etc.
Your example is only valid if NOTHING is done to the potato and it is sold at a higher price than what was paid to the farmer.
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Peace Wakas,
Yes thank you for correcting me.
It completly makes sense that we would be paying for those reasons so there is no interest involved because the end product isnt the same as the begining product. the end product is in fact what was done to get it in the store and to our feet. -
Peace All
My opinion at present is that money must either have intrinsic value or be used strictly as a medium of exchange that is free from growth in itself.But without interest, there would not be an incentive to pay the money back to the lender. Would you pu the people who dont pay the money back to the lender in jail, or would you, as a lender put 1-4% interest on the money so that there is an incentive to pay it back on time.
Furthermore, remember the expression "time is money, money is time". You pay the lender for the time that you have taken from him, where he/she could have used the money as an investment.
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Edip-Layth - End Note 83 (2275)
It is common wisdom that "high" interest rates are not healthy for a good economy. The interest that the Quran prohibits is not the interest collected from money lent for businesses, but rather the money lent for consumption of necessities. When considered with its context, this prohibition is about usury. The Quran does not treat this subject in the context of business or trade, but in the context of the charity to the needy. Those who exploit the basic needs of individuals may attempt to justify their usury as free market trade. The interest charge on credit cards used by needy consumers should be considered usury, since the money borrowed is not invested for profitable business enterprise, but spent on basic needs. Modern banks charge obscene amounts of fees and interest (usury) to their customers who need the money the most. They have developed extensive tricks to steal from their needy victims. Unfortunately, banks have the power to legalize their robberies by buying the elected legislators. Through constant and cunning propaganda, they have even succeeded in legitimizing their exploitation and theft, even to their victims. See 3130; 4161.
Any comments?
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"If you lend money to any of my people that is poor by you, you shall not be to him as an usurer, neither shall you lay on him usury."
Take you no usury of him, or increase but fear your God; that your brother may live with you."
You shall not give him your money on usury, nor lend him your victuals for increase."
You shall not lend on usury to your brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent on usury "
To a stranger you may lend on usury; but to your brother you shall not lend on usury that the LORD your God may bless you in all that you set your hand to in the land where you go to possess it."
Those who charge usury are in the same position as those controlled by the devil's influence. This is because they claim that usury is the same as commerce. However, God permits commerce, and prohibits usury. Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from usury, he may keep his past earnings, and his judgment rests with God. As for those who persist in usury, they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever (Al-Baqarah 2275)
God condemns usury, and blesses charities.God dislikes every disbeliever, guilty. Lo! those who believe and do good works and establish worship and pay the poor-due, their reward is with their Lord and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. O you who believe, you shall observe God and refrain from all kinds of usury, if you are believers. If you do not, then expect a war from God and His messenger. But if you repent, you may keep your capitals, without inflicting injustice, or incurring injustice. If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew. (Al-Baqarah 2276-280)
O you who believe, you shall not take usury, compounded over and over. Observe God, that you may succeed. (Al-'Imran 3130)
And for practicing usury, which was forbidden, and for consuming the people's money illicitly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them painful retribution. (Al-Nisa 4161)
The usury that is practiced to increase some people's wealth, does not gain anything at God. But if people give to charity, seeking God's pleasure, these are the ones who receive their reward many fold. (Ar-Rum 3039)
Its talking about abuse and taking advantage of the poor. I don't think its talking about business transaction where the person is doing so willingly and for business reasons. Its like 3rd world debt where people rather than help the poor, take advantage of them knowing the money they lend is used for survival and not for investments.
Like someone who is desperate and then you lend him money you know he will use to heal someone sick or to pay of some debts he inherited or to feed himslef and his family. How can this person ever repay you?
Notice the Koran and OT contrasts between riba and charity. You don't give charity except to the needy. Anotherwords, exploitation.
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Peace,
In my very humble opinion,
-Any return on capital without labor is Riba as it an intrinsic increase in the value of capital by time.
-Therefore, return on labor is the only legitimate return.
-Willful transfer of your fruit of labor to others are called Sadaqat.Peace,
Rami
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Peace,
In my very humble opinion,
-Any return on capital without labor is Riba as it an intrinsic increase in the value of capital by time.
-Therefore, return on labor is the only legitimate return.
-Willful transfer of your fruit of labor to others are called Sadaqat.Peace,
Rami
Thats communism. Anyways answer this; why would anybody lend you money unless its for two reasons, self interest or charity? The third which is explotation is in my mind the definition of Riba. Thirld world debt is a classic case of what Riba is.
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Thats communism. Anyways answer this; why would anybody lend you money unless its for two reasons, self interest or charity? The third which is explotation is in my mind the definition of Riba. Thirld world debt is a classic case of what Riba is.
No thats not communism. Private ownership is not prohibited here. Lending money is like charity but easier.
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Right now I have come up with two possible meanings of "Riba" (could be both, though)
- High interest - meaning interest that is around 10%-15% and above.
Evidence from the Quran
3130 O you who acknowledge, you shall not take usury, compounded over and over. Observe GOD, that you may succeed
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Exploitation of the needy - namely, charging interest on potential recipients of Zakat.
Here is evidence from the Quran and "Riba" in context with "charity" to prove this understanding (from chapter 2) -
Any CHARITY you give, or a CHARITABLE pledge you fulfill, God is fully aware thereof. As for the wicked, they will have no helpers.
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If you declare your CHARITIES, they are still good. But if you keep them anonymous, and give them to the poor, it is better for you, and remits more of your sins. God is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
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You are not responsible for guiding anyone. God is the only one who guides whoever chooses. Any CHARITY you give is for your own good. Any CHARITY you give shall be for the sake of God. Any CHARITY you give will be repaid to you, without the least injustice.
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CHARITY shall go to the poor who are suffering in the cause of God, and cannot emigrate. The unaware may think that they are rich, due to their dignity. But you can recognize them by certain signs; they never beg from people persistently. Whatever CHARITY you give, God is fully aware thereof.
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Those who give to CHARITY night and day, secretly and publicly, receive their recompense from their Lord; they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
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Those who charge "riba" are in the same position as those controlled by the devils influence. This is because they claim that "riba" is the same as commerce, However, God permits commerce, and prohibits "riba". Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from "riba", he may keep his past earnings, and his judgment rests with God. As for those who persist in "riba", they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever.
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God condemns "riba", and increases (yurbi) CHARITIES. God dislikes every disbeliever, guilty.
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Those who believe and lead a righteous life, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory CHARITY (Zakat), they receive their recompense from their Lord; they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
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O you who believe, you shall observe God and refrain from all kinds of "riba", if you are believers.
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If you do not, then expect a war from God and His messenger. But if you repent, you may keep your capitals, without inflicting injustice, or incurring injustice.
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If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a CHARITY, it would be better for you, if you only knew.
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Beware of the day when you are returned to God, and every person is paid for everything it had done, without the least injustice.
Like I said in the beginning, it could be a combination of these understandings, namely, that both high interest and interest on the potential recipients of zakat/exploitation of the needy is prohibited.
Interest for money lent to businesses, wealthy people, and relatively wealthy people is lawful since they are not needy/poor/potential recipients of zakat, and therefore are not exploited.
Interest that is gained by each individual from the bank is lawful, since the bank is doing this out of their own will, it is usually not high and because nobody is being exploited.
Interest on third world debt is "riba", since interest is being imposed on needy/poor people/potential recipients of zakat.
Interest for money loaned to needy people who borrow some money from a person because they need to, for example, buy food, but don't have enough money and therefore need to borrow some money from a person, is "riba" since it is exploitation of the needy.
It could be summed up that "riba"is defined as "exploitation by monetary means". If nobody is being exploited by the interest imposed, then it is not "riba", and if somebody is exploited, it is "riba".
- High interest - meaning interest that is around 10%-15% and above.
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Peace All
I think that the idea of riba meaning interest that is compounded is erronoeus.
First of all in 2276 it is stated that riba is haraam.
Second, in 3130 it is said that you shall not take riba compounded over & over.
Note that it is not riba that is compounded over & over that is forbidden, it is riba that is forbidden. Therefore however one may define riba, it is forbidden whether compounded or not.
Imraan
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Peace
Peace All
I think that the idea of riba meaning interest that is compounded is erronoeus.
First of all in 2276 it is stated that riba is haraam.
Second, in 3130 it is said that you shall not take riba compounded over & over.
Note that it is not riba that is compounded over & over that is forbidden, it is riba that is forbidden. Therefore however one may define riba, it is forbidden whether compounded or not.
Imraan
You did not understamd 3130
3130 O you who believe, you shall not take usury, compounded over and over. Observe GOD, that you may succeed.
It says that riba is compounded over and over. Why would God tell us two different things. Your deduction was errounous, IMO.
Let me give you an example
I tell you becoming rich is haram. Next, I tell you don't earn money, so that you dont become rich. The second statement compliments/highlights/explains the first one - same goes for riba.
Please read this article.
Peace
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Peace progressive1993
I tell you becoming rich is haram. Next, I tell you don't earn money, so that you dont become rich. The second statement compliments/highlights/explains the first one - same goes for riba.
I don't see how this example relates to 3130.
One of the main problems I have found with regard to understanding the quran is looking at it as a static document. It cannot be static as it has to serve us for all time. That is why there are apparent contradictions in the quran. The contradictions are only cleared up once we stop looking at the quran as every verse instructing us on a subject regardless of the stage of development that a community is in. In the case of our economic state at the moment, we find it difficult to understand the verses on riba (& the quranic economic values in general) because we fail to take this into consideration. We think of ourselves as being in an advanced economic state whereas we are in an extremely primitive state in relation to quranic values.
Please read this article.
The problem that I have with the definition that Edip proposes is that a person requiring assistance with his basic needs is entitled to sadaqah, not a loan. So, unless sadaqaah is defined as a loan, I cannot agree with his interpretation.
Imraan
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Peace Imran
One of the main problems I have found with regard to understanding the quran is looking at it as a static document. It cannot be static as it has to serve us for all time. That is why there are apparent contradictions in the quran. The contradictions are only cleared up once we stop looking at the quran as every verse instructing us on a subject regardless of the stage of development that a community is in. In the case of our economic state at the moment, we find it difficult to understand the verses on riba (& the quranic economic values in general) because we fail to take this into consideration. We think of ourselves as being in an advanced economic state whereas we are in an extremely primitive state in relation to quranic values.
I disagree. I advise you to read it in context again.
The problem that I have with the definition that Edip proposes is that a person requiring assistance with his basic needs is entitled to sadaqah, not a loan. So, unless sadaqaah is defined as a loan, I cannot agree with his interpretation.
People can, instead of giving a financially poor guy a donation/charity (sadaqa) just tell them "I'll give you 20 Euros, but next month you need to pay me 30 Euros back!" Now, that sucks... How could a poor guy pay him back 30 Euros?! Does the loan-chartiy help here? NO! Because it is riba. He is exploiting the needy. This is not proper charity, it is riba.
Like I said before, please read the verses in context.
Peace
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Peace progressive1993
I disagree. I advise it in context again.
I'm not sure what you mean by "I advise it in context again"
People can, instead of giving a financially poor guy a donation/charity (sadaqa) just tell them "I'll give you 20 Euros, but next month you need to pay me 30 Euros back!" Now, that sucks... How could a poor guy pay him back 30 Euros?! Does the loan-chartiy help here? NO! Because it is riba. He is exploiting the needy. This is not proper charity, it is riba.
First of all sadaqaah is extremely poorly translated as charity imo. It refers to a right that people have. This is clear when one looks at the root from which it is derived. This makes much more sense to me since if it is someone's right, they don't feel that it is a hand down & it eliminates any feeling of self-righteousness on the part of the remitter. You will notice that the word sadaqaah is aslo used in relation to the "dowry" in 44. Surely one cannot consider this a charity to the woman. Niether can it be considered a loan to the woman. It is her right. Therefore while one must consider the context of the verse, one must also remember to use tasreef in determining the meaning. So, in your example, what is given is not charity. It is the right of the one in need to have access to it.
Like I said before, please read the verses in context.
While looking at context, one should not view the issue with pre-conceived ideas, but with a clear understanding of the possible meanings of the words according to how they are derived from the root verb rather than the meanings drawn from interprtetations through hadith, etc. that have been used by most translators of the quran.
Imraan
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Peace Imran
I'm not sure what you mean by "I advise it in context again"
Sorry, my mistake. I edited it.
While looking at context, one should not view the issue with pre-conceived ideas, but with a clear understanding of the possible meanings of the words according to how they are derived from the root verb rather than the meanings drawn from interprtetations through hadith, etc. that have been used by most translators of the quran.
Read in context and tell me what you think. I never suggested anything with Hadith.
Peace
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Salaam,
I posted this reply on another section of this site, just noticed there is a dedicated section for econonmics, I have a full explanation of the Islamic models of economics on my website, if anyone is interested.
to understand Usury you must first understand ownership, without this it is impossible to grasp correctly, nothing can ever truly be owned by any human being, a fleeting spark (a person) can only be the custodian of anything, things are used for a short time, things are consumed, things are exploited, or things are invented, but ultimately all things are ephemeral.
To horde fiat money, gold, silver, sheep or whatever beyond any purpose or benefit, is at the detriment of those around you. You maybe the richest person in the grave yard, but not one coin, not one property, not one atom goes beyond this world and into the next, you leave this world with everything you held, owned or stole; lost?
Only those things of the mind are intermediaries, thought remains, the things of thought do not.
All things go back to the Earth, all things are allodial, to think otherwise is only the confusion of a subjugated mind.
To understand allodial ownership please read http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/68/98/
(Usury the premeditated theft of the fruits of somebody else?s labour.)
Many are confused as to what usury is, and what usury is not, but it is a very simple concept only confused by one thing, the desire to gain from usury while wishing to remain a Muslim.
All the Earth is allodial, as are the fruits of the Earth, for example if I plant a field of watermelons, the watermelons are the bounty of Allah, grown from the earth and out of the seed, and from the design of Allah, but the physical labour you invested in the planting of the seed, the preparing of the land, the harvesting and marketing of the watermelons, is what you have honestly earned and deserve in reward of your labour, so when you sell the watermelon, the watermelon itself is free, as it is the bounty of Allah, but the labour it took to reach its end user and consumer must be paid by the end user and consumer.
This is in contrast to usury, if I lent you a watermelon, and expect you to repay me two watermelons in return, I have laboured in the creation of the one watermelon, but I expect a second watermelon in return for no labour, I have extorted the fruits of your labour from you, because to create the second watermelon I must labour twice as much as you laboured in the creation of just one watermelon, and surrender that labour to you in reward for no effort on your part, this is usury.
Or if I demanded 10% of your crop in exchange for insuring it against loss, so I gambled you would have a good harvest, when the odds maybe only 1% of the time a crop is lost. This is a form of usury.
The Islamic model, protecting yourself from the hardship of a crop failure is simple. A group of farmers would join together, each committing a share of their crop into the collective pot, proportionate to the size of their holdings, only if a farm failed would any burden be extracted from the collective, otherwise the insurance would cost nothing. This loss burden sharing insurance could be linked across large group collectives of farmers, so reducing the burden through scale of any potential losses.
To sell a crop of watermelons at a discounted price before you have planted the seeds, and harvested, jumping straight to market, as is now commonly practiced through the futures market, is selling something you do not have, and may never have, you may only sell what you posses, to sell a potential is a form of usury, you are selling nothing now for the fruits of someone?s labour, for a price that if you deliver in the future would be for less than you have earned.
These principles can be applied to any area of commerce, for example if you sign a contract to pay a set fee for a service, irrelevant to whether that service is used or not, say a gym membership contract, but never go, yet you can not escape the contract period, this is a futures contract and a form of usury, any contract based on potential future use of service, as opposed to actual use is again not full measure for the fruits of your labour, so usury.
