Ribaa
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Peace all,
THank you fo your valuable input on this issue. I have however decided to discuss this issue in a broader sense, viz. Economic System of the Quran. It can be found here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597204.0
Please participate in this discussion if you can.
Imraan
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peace barmack,
It seems you fail to take into account what is involved in buying the potato from the farmer and selling it in the supermarket. What about time, sourcing, transport, packaging, promotion/advertising, complying with any standards that are in place etc.
Your example is only valid if NOTHING is done to the potato and it is sold at a higher price than what was paid to the farmer.
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Peace Wakas,
Yes thank you for correcting me.
It completly makes sense that we would be paying for those reasons so there is no interest involved because the end product isnt the same as the begining product. the end product is in fact what was done to get it in the store and to our feet. -
Peace All
My opinion at present is that money must either have intrinsic value or be used strictly as a medium of exchange that is free from growth in itself.But without interest, there would not be an incentive to pay the money back to the lender. Would you pu the people who dont pay the money back to the lender in jail, or would you, as a lender put 1-4% interest on the money so that there is an incentive to pay it back on time.
Furthermore, remember the expression "time is money, money is time". You pay the lender for the time that you have taken from him, where he/she could have used the money as an investment.
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Edip-Layth - End Note 83 (2275)
It is common wisdom that "high" interest rates are not healthy for a good economy. The interest that the Quran prohibits is not the interest collected from money lent for businesses, but rather the money lent for consumption of necessities. When considered with its context, this prohibition is about usury. The Quran does not treat this subject in the context of business or trade, but in the context of the charity to the needy. Those who exploit the basic needs of individuals may attempt to justify their usury as free market trade. The interest charge on credit cards used by needy consumers should be considered usury, since the money borrowed is not invested for profitable business enterprise, but spent on basic needs. Modern banks charge obscene amounts of fees and interest (usury) to their customers who need the money the most. They have developed extensive tricks to steal from their needy victims. Unfortunately, banks have the power to legalize their robberies by buying the elected legislators. Through constant and cunning propaganda, they have even succeeded in legitimizing their exploitation and theft, even to their victims. See 3130; 4161.
Any comments?
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"If you lend money to any of my people that is poor by you, you shall not be to him as an usurer, neither shall you lay on him usury."
Take you no usury of him, or increase but fear your God; that your brother may live with you."
You shall not give him your money on usury, nor lend him your victuals for increase."
You shall not lend on usury to your brother; usury of money, usury of victuals, usury of any thing that is lent on usury "
To a stranger you may lend on usury; but to your brother you shall not lend on usury that the LORD your God may bless you in all that you set your hand to in the land where you go to possess it."
Those who charge usury are in the same position as those controlled by the devil's influence. This is because they claim that usury is the same as commerce. However, God permits commerce, and prohibits usury. Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from usury, he may keep his past earnings, and his judgment rests with God. As for those who persist in usury, they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever (Al-Baqarah 2275)
God condemns usury, and blesses charities.God dislikes every disbeliever, guilty. Lo! those who believe and do good works and establish worship and pay the poor-due, their reward is with their Lord and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. O you who believe, you shall observe God and refrain from all kinds of usury, if you are believers. If you do not, then expect a war from God and His messenger. But if you repent, you may keep your capitals, without inflicting injustice, or incurring injustice. If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew. (Al-Baqarah 2276-280)
O you who believe, you shall not take usury, compounded over and over. Observe God, that you may succeed. (Al-'Imran 3130)
And for practicing usury, which was forbidden, and for consuming the people's money illicitly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them painful retribution. (Al-Nisa 4161)
The usury that is practiced to increase some people's wealth, does not gain anything at God. But if people give to charity, seeking God's pleasure, these are the ones who receive their reward many fold. (Ar-Rum 3039)
Its talking about abuse and taking advantage of the poor. I don't think its talking about business transaction where the person is doing so willingly and for business reasons. Its like 3rd world debt where people rather than help the poor, take advantage of them knowing the money they lend is used for survival and not for investments.
Like someone who is desperate and then you lend him money you know he will use to heal someone sick or to pay of some debts he inherited or to feed himslef and his family. How can this person ever repay you?
Notice the Koran and OT contrasts between riba and charity. You don't give charity except to the needy. Anotherwords, exploitation.
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Peace,
In my very humble opinion,
-Any return on capital without labor is Riba as it an intrinsic increase in the value of capital by time.
-Therefore, return on labor is the only legitimate return.
-Willful transfer of your fruit of labor to others are called Sadaqat.Peace,
Rami
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Peace,
In my very humble opinion,
-Any return on capital without labor is Riba as it an intrinsic increase in the value of capital by time.
-Therefore, return on labor is the only legitimate return.
-Willful transfer of your fruit of labor to others are called Sadaqat.Peace,
Rami
Thats communism. Anyways answer this; why would anybody lend you money unless its for two reasons, self interest or charity? The third which is explotation is in my mind the definition of Riba. Thirld world debt is a classic case of what Riba is.
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Thats communism. Anyways answer this; why would anybody lend you money unless its for two reasons, self interest or charity? The third which is explotation is in my mind the definition of Riba. Thirld world debt is a classic case of what Riba is.
No thats not communism. Private ownership is not prohibited here. Lending money is like charity but easier.
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Right now I have come up with two possible meanings of "Riba" (could be both, though)
- High interest - meaning interest that is around 10%-15% and above.
Evidence from the Quran
3130 O you who acknowledge, you shall not take usury, compounded over and over. Observe GOD, that you may succeed
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Exploitation of the needy - namely, charging interest on potential recipients of Zakat.
Here is evidence from the Quran and "Riba" in context with "charity" to prove this understanding (from chapter 2) -
Any CHARITY you give, or a CHARITABLE pledge you fulfill, God is fully aware thereof. As for the wicked, they will have no helpers.
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If you declare your CHARITIES, they are still good. But if you keep them anonymous, and give them to the poor, it is better for you, and remits more of your sins. God is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
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You are not responsible for guiding anyone. God is the only one who guides whoever chooses. Any CHARITY you give is for your own good. Any CHARITY you give shall be for the sake of God. Any CHARITY you give will be repaid to you, without the least injustice.
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CHARITY shall go to the poor who are suffering in the cause of God, and cannot emigrate. The unaware may think that they are rich, due to their dignity. But you can recognize them by certain signs; they never beg from people persistently. Whatever CHARITY you give, God is fully aware thereof.
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Those who give to CHARITY night and day, secretly and publicly, receive their recompense from their Lord; they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
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Those who charge "riba" are in the same position as those controlled by the devils influence. This is because they claim that "riba" is the same as commerce, However, God permits commerce, and prohibits "riba". Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from "riba", he may keep his past earnings, and his judgment rests with God. As for those who persist in "riba", they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever.
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God condemns "riba", and increases (yurbi) CHARITIES. God dislikes every disbeliever, guilty.
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Those who believe and lead a righteous life, and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and give the obligatory CHARITY (Zakat), they receive their recompense from their Lord; they will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
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O you who believe, you shall observe God and refrain from all kinds of "riba", if you are believers.
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If you do not, then expect a war from God and His messenger. But if you repent, you may keep your capitals, without inflicting injustice, or incurring injustice.
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If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a CHARITY, it would be better for you, if you only knew.
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Beware of the day when you are returned to God, and every person is paid for everything it had done, without the least injustice.
Like I said in the beginning, it could be a combination of these understandings, namely, that both high interest and interest on the potential recipients of zakat/exploitation of the needy is prohibited.
Interest for money lent to businesses, wealthy people, and relatively wealthy people is lawful since they are not needy/poor/potential recipients of zakat, and therefore are not exploited.
Interest that is gained by each individual from the bank is lawful, since the bank is doing this out of their own will, it is usually not high and because nobody is being exploited.
Interest on third world debt is "riba", since interest is being imposed on needy/poor people/potential recipients of zakat.
Interest for money loaned to needy people who borrow some money from a person because they need to, for example, buy food, but don't have enough money and therefore need to borrow some money from a person, is "riba" since it is exploitation of the needy.
It could be summed up that "riba"is defined as "exploitation by monetary means". If nobody is being exploited by the interest imposed, then it is not "riba", and if somebody is exploited, it is "riba".
- High interest - meaning interest that is around 10%-15% and above.
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Peace All
I think that the idea of riba meaning interest that is compounded is erronoeus.
First of all in 2276 it is stated that riba is haraam.
Second, in 3130 it is said that you shall not take riba compounded over & over.
Note that it is not riba that is compounded over & over that is forbidden, it is riba that is forbidden. Therefore however one may define riba, it is forbidden whether compounded or not.
Imraan
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Peace
Peace All
I think that the idea of riba meaning interest that is compounded is erronoeus.
First of all in 2276 it is stated that riba is haraam.
Second, in 3130 it is said that you shall not take riba compounded over & over.
Note that it is not riba that is compounded over & over that is forbidden, it is riba that is forbidden. Therefore however one may define riba, it is forbidden whether compounded or not.
Imraan
You did not understamd 3130
3130 O you who believe, you shall not take usury, compounded over and over. Observe GOD, that you may succeed.
It says that riba is compounded over and over. Why would God tell us two different things. Your deduction was errounous, IMO.
Let me give you an example
I tell you becoming rich is haram. Next, I tell you don't earn money, so that you dont become rich. The second statement compliments/highlights/explains the first one - same goes for riba.
Please read this article.
Peace
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Peace progressive1993
I tell you becoming rich is haram. Next, I tell you don't earn money, so that you dont become rich. The second statement compliments/highlights/explains the first one - same goes for riba.
I don't see how this example relates to 3130.
One of the main problems I have found with regard to understanding the quran is looking at it as a static document. It cannot be static as it has to serve us for all time. That is why there are apparent contradictions in the quran. The contradictions are only cleared up once we stop looking at the quran as every verse instructing us on a subject regardless of the stage of development that a community is in. In the case of our economic state at the moment, we find it difficult to understand the verses on riba (& the quranic economic values in general) because we fail to take this into consideration. We think of ourselves as being in an advanced economic state whereas we are in an extremely primitive state in relation to quranic values.
Please read this article.
The problem that I have with the definition that Edip proposes is that a person requiring assistance with his basic needs is entitled to sadaqah, not a loan. So, unless sadaqaah is defined as a loan, I cannot agree with his interpretation.
Imraan
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Peace Imran
One of the main problems I have found with regard to understanding the quran is looking at it as a static document. It cannot be static as it has to serve us for all time. That is why there are apparent contradictions in the quran. The contradictions are only cleared up once we stop looking at the quran as every verse instructing us on a subject regardless of the stage of development that a community is in. In the case of our economic state at the moment, we find it difficult to understand the verses on riba (& the quranic economic values in general) because we fail to take this into consideration. We think of ourselves as being in an advanced economic state whereas we are in an extremely primitive state in relation to quranic values.
I disagree. I advise you to read it in context again.
The problem that I have with the definition that Edip proposes is that a person requiring assistance with his basic needs is entitled to sadaqah, not a loan. So, unless sadaqaah is defined as a loan, I cannot agree with his interpretation.
People can, instead of giving a financially poor guy a donation/charity (sadaqa) just tell them "I'll give you 20 Euros, but next month you need to pay me 30 Euros back!" Now, that sucks... How could a poor guy pay him back 30 Euros?! Does the loan-chartiy help here? NO! Because it is riba. He is exploiting the needy. This is not proper charity, it is riba.
Like I said before, please read the verses in context.
Peace
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Peace progressive1993
I disagree. I advise it in context again.
I'm not sure what you mean by "I advise it in context again"
People can, instead of giving a financially poor guy a donation/charity (sadaqa) just tell them "I'll give you 20 Euros, but next month you need to pay me 30 Euros back!" Now, that sucks... How could a poor guy pay him back 30 Euros?! Does the loan-chartiy help here? NO! Because it is riba. He is exploiting the needy. This is not proper charity, it is riba.
First of all sadaqaah is extremely poorly translated as charity imo. It refers to a right that people have. This is clear when one looks at the root from which it is derived. This makes much more sense to me since if it is someone's right, they don't feel that it is a hand down & it eliminates any feeling of self-righteousness on the part of the remitter. You will notice that the word sadaqaah is aslo used in relation to the "dowry" in 44. Surely one cannot consider this a charity to the woman. Niether can it be considered a loan to the woman. It is her right. Therefore while one must consider the context of the verse, one must also remember to use tasreef in determining the meaning. So, in your example, what is given is not charity. It is the right of the one in need to have access to it.
Like I said before, please read the verses in context.
While looking at context, one should not view the issue with pre-conceived ideas, but with a clear understanding of the possible meanings of the words according to how they are derived from the root verb rather than the meanings drawn from interprtetations through hadith, etc. that have been used by most translators of the quran.
Imraan
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Peace Imran
I'm not sure what you mean by "I advise it in context again"
Sorry, my mistake. I edited it.
While looking at context, one should not view the issue with pre-conceived ideas, but with a clear understanding of the possible meanings of the words according to how they are derived from the root verb rather than the meanings drawn from interprtetations through hadith, etc. that have been used by most translators of the quran.
Read in context and tell me what you think. I never suggested anything with Hadith.
Peace
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Salaam,
I posted this reply on another section of this site, just noticed there is a dedicated section for econonmics, I have a full explanation of the Islamic models of economics on my website, if anyone is interested.
to understand Usury you must first understand ownership, without this it is impossible to grasp correctly, nothing can ever truly be owned by any human being, a fleeting spark (a person) can only be the custodian of anything, things are used for a short time, things are consumed, things are exploited, or things are invented, but ultimately all things are ephemeral.
To horde fiat money, gold, silver, sheep or whatever beyond any purpose or benefit, is at the detriment of those around you. You maybe the richest person in the grave yard, but not one coin, not one property, not one atom goes beyond this world and into the next, you leave this world with everything you held, owned or stole; lost?
Only those things of the mind are intermediaries, thought remains, the things of thought do not.
All things go back to the Earth, all things are allodial, to think otherwise is only the confusion of a subjugated mind.
To understand allodial ownership please read http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/68/98/
(Usury the premeditated theft of the fruits of somebody else?s labour.)
Many are confused as to what usury is, and what usury is not, but it is a very simple concept only confused by one thing, the desire to gain from usury while wishing to remain a Muslim.
All the Earth is allodial, as are the fruits of the Earth, for example if I plant a field of watermelons, the watermelons are the bounty of Allah, grown from the earth and out of the seed, and from the design of Allah, but the physical labour you invested in the planting of the seed, the preparing of the land, the harvesting and marketing of the watermelons, is what you have honestly earned and deserve in reward of your labour, so when you sell the watermelon, the watermelon itself is free, as it is the bounty of Allah, but the labour it took to reach its end user and consumer must be paid by the end user and consumer.
This is in contrast to usury, if I lent you a watermelon, and expect you to repay me two watermelons in return, I have laboured in the creation of the one watermelon, but I expect a second watermelon in return for no labour, I have extorted the fruits of your labour from you, because to create the second watermelon I must labour twice as much as you laboured in the creation of just one watermelon, and surrender that labour to you in reward for no effort on your part, this is usury.
Or if I demanded 10% of your crop in exchange for insuring it against loss, so I gambled you would have a good harvest, when the odds maybe only 1% of the time a crop is lost. This is a form of usury.
The Islamic model, protecting yourself from the hardship of a crop failure is simple. A group of farmers would join together, each committing a share of their crop into the collective pot, proportionate to the size of their holdings, only if a farm failed would any burden be extracted from the collective, otherwise the insurance would cost nothing. This loss burden sharing insurance could be linked across large group collectives of farmers, so reducing the burden through scale of any potential losses.
To sell a crop of watermelons at a discounted price before you have planted the seeds, and harvested, jumping straight to market, as is now commonly practiced through the futures market, is selling something you do not have, and may never have, you may only sell what you posses, to sell a potential is a form of usury, you are selling nothing now for the fruits of someone?s labour, for a price that if you deliver in the future would be for less than you have earned.
These principles can be applied to any area of commerce, for example if you sign a contract to pay a set fee for a service, irrelevant to whether that service is used or not, say a gym membership contract, but never go, yet you can not escape the contract period, this is a futures contract and a form of usury, any contract based on potential future use of service, as opposed to actual use is again not full measure for the fruits of your labour, so usury.
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I posted this reply on another section of this site
For anyone interested to follow that discussion http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597986.45
