The Koran and the Death Penalty
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Interesting use of words. I would more accurately state it allows for sparing of life in certain circumstances.
I would more accurately state it encourages sparing of life (no matter which circumstance).
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You openly admit it is "trying to kill him", "fighting God/Koran and its message". Thus, by your own admission, it is not about punishment for murder.
I repeat the obvious there is no talk of a murder in the context.
Thus, your attempt to equate one with the other is null and void.
I know that was not the topic discussed, but since you continued to perpetuate baseless information, I asked again, and once again you never answered.
Much like this thread of yours http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598148.0
More baseless opinion? Or are you going to bring evidence?
- The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
So let me get this clear, what exacty is it that deserves
execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land ?
Chewing gum?
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hey ~
i just wanted some clarification on this, from your point of view.
i've discussed this with a few Sunnis, who say that leaving Islam is akin to treason against the ummah, and punishable by death.
now, i know the Quran itself says nothing about death for apostasy, but what about the concept of "treason against the ummah"?
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hey ~
i just wanted some clarification on this, from your point of view.
i've discussed this with a few Sunnis, who say that leaving Islam is akin to treason against the ummah, and punishable by death.
now, i know the Quran itself says nothing about death for apostasy, but what about the concept of "treason against the ummah"?
They call if khurooj or tarik, meaning leaving or abandoning the Jama'a. There is two hadiths about that and a third about apostating from the religion. The jama'a is not clear and I have found Sunni clerics disagreeing to what exactly the jama'a is.
Treason is by definition
Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as "......citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the ." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aided or involved by such an endeavour.
Outside legal spheres, the word "traitor" may also be used to describe a person who betrays (or is accused of betraying) their own political party, nation, family, friends, ethnic group, team, religion, social class, or other group to which they may belong. Often, such accusations are controversial and disputed, as the person may not identify with the group of which they are a member, or may otherwise disagree with the group leaders making the charge. See, for example, race traitor.
At times, the term "traitor" has been levelled as a political epithet, regardless of any verifiable treasonable action. In a civil war or insurrection, the winners may deem the losers to be traitors. Likewise the term "traitor" is used in heated political discussion ? typically as a slur against political dissidents, or against officials in power who are perceived as failing to act in the best interest of their constituents. In certain cases, as with the German Dolchsto?legende, the accusation of treason towards a large group of people can be a unifying political message.
Murder is now generally considered the worst of crimes, but in the past, treason was thought of as worse. In English law high treason was punishable by being hanged, drawn and quartered (men) or burnt at the stake (women), the only crime which attracted those penalties (until the Treason Act 1814). The penalty was used by later monarchs against people who could reasonably be called traitors, although most modern jurists would call it excessive. Many of them would now just be considered dissidents.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason
So religious issues are not considered treason. Sunni definition of treason is not the same as apostasy
Apostasy (IPA /ps.t.si/,/ps.t.si/) is the formal religious disaffiliation or abandonment or renunciation of one's religion, especially if the motive is deemed unworthy. In a technical sense, as used sometimes by sociologists without the pejorative connotations of the word, the term refers to renunciation and criticism of, or opposition to, one's former religion. One who commits apostasy is an apostate, or one who apostatizes. The word derives from Greek (apostasia), meaning a defection or revolt, from , apo, "away, apart", , stasis, "stand", "standing". The term is sometimes also used to refer to renunciation of a belief or cause by (generally facetious) extension of the religious connotation, such as in reference to a political party or a sports team.
Apostasy is generally not a self-definition very few former believers call themselves apostates and they generally consider this term to be a pejorative. Many religious movements consider it a vice (sin), a corruption of the virtue of piety in the sense that when piety fails, apostasy is the result. Unlike apostasy, heresy is the rejection or corruption of certain doctrines, not the complete abandonment of one's religion. Heretics claim to still be following a religion (or to be the "true believers", whereas apostates reject it entirely.
Many religious groups and even some states punish apostates. The concept of apostasy is used to enforce group cohesion and utilize fear to suppress the free will of the individual. Apostates may be shunned by the members of their former religious group or worse. This may be the official policy of the religious group or may happen spontaneously. A church may in certain circumstances respond to apostasy by excommunicating the apostate, while some Abrahamic scriptures (Judaism Deuteronomy 136-10) and Islam al-Bukhari, Diyat, bab 6) demand the death penalty for apostates.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy
They are two different things. One is based on actions(treason) the other on belief(apostasy). Sunnis just want to shun criticism that these apostasy laws were made to enforce fear and obedience and acceptance of authority, no more no less. It as a hadith that was clearly made up because al Shafi also considered apostates should be killed but he did not bring forth Bukhari's hadith, he brought forth the fitna is worst than slaying verse. Later Bukhari brought up this hadith to strengthen the case.
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Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
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And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
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But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
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And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression
The verse is clearly talking about war and not beliefs. So when Bukhari compiled the hadith they came up with hadiths to back that up.
This article has all the hadith and fiqh arguments regarding apostasy
http//www.experiencefestival.com/a/Apostasy_in_Islam/id/1915469
Once again while the Koran talks about war and fighting, treason is talking about supposed actions done against the state by a citizen of that state usually with the help of foreign powers and usually with the intention of causing harm or regime change. Obviously for the government in power they would consider that as an act of treason although the supposed traitor might not see it that way(Saddam's opposition and their supprt of the US invasion etc). However Sunnis are talking about faith and personal beliefs which has nothing to do with the Koranic verses or even treason according to the definition of the political world.
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- The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
So let me get this clear, what exacty is it that deserves
execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land ?
Chewing gum?
It's in the verse you quoted. You even openly admitted what it was about yet still seem to think it is about punishment for murder. Let me underline it for you so you wont miss it
- The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Here is a question you can ask yourself
Does waging war against Allah and His messenger and striving for corruption in the land always involve murder?
If you answer no, then your attempt to equate the two is weak.
I think what you are trying to say is it could involve killing of another. Even though this is unproven, you may wish to research elsewhere in AQ where murder is discussed and a punishment stipulated - how to reconcile the differences if any etc.
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It's in the verse you quoted. You even openly admitted what it was about yet still seem to think it is about punishment for murder. Let me underline it for you so you wont miss it
- The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
Here is a question you can ask yourself
Does waging war against Allah and His messenger and striving for corruption in the land always involve murder?
If you answer no, then your attempt to equate the two is weak.
I think what you are trying to say is it could involve killing of another. Even though this is unproven, you may wish to research elsewhere in AQ where murder is discussed and a punishment stipulated - how to reconcile the differences if any etc.
I am not sure what you are saying. The Koran did not say anything of the sort when it talked about fighting and wars, it said to fight them back till they cease. It talked about prisoners of wars when a person on the other side is caught, yet this verse is clearly talking about murder and killing. Why else will it stipulate execution? There is no other verse in the Koran that deals with murder except this one.
You seem to be saying that this verse is talking about prisoners of war. &
Anyways this verse is a clear continuation of the verses before it.
28.4. Truly Pharaoh elated himself in the land and broke up its people into sections, depressing a small group among them their sons he slew, but he kept alive their females for he was indeed a maker of mischief
2.30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not
In fact the verse before itself uses fasad
For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.?
Clearly this is talking about killing and its contrast "whoever keeps it alive". Don't you think?
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I am not sure what you are saying.
Perhaps if you answered my questions, and actually read the links I gave, it might become clearer to you.
yet this verse is clearly talking about murder and killing.
If it doesn't mention murder, then how can it be classed as "clear"? Is it "clear" because if it isn't, the central point in your post fails?
Why else will it stipulate execution?
Oppression/persecution is worse than being killed is it not? See 2217.
There is no other verse in the Koran that deals with murder except this one.
Did you even bother to read the thread I referenced?
You seem to be saying that this verse is talking about prisoners of war.
No I'm not. I am saying only what The Quran is saying, it is about those who wage war against God and His messenger and strive for corruption in the land.
Anyways this verse is a clear continuation of the verses before it.
You did not quote the verses before it. Perhaps you meant by way of cross-referencing, you think what you referenced is what it refers to.
Are you now implying the only "mischief/corruption in the land" is killing of others? I have not studied it, but I would need more evidence by way of full cross referencing. You would also need to show "wage war against God and His messenger" is only in reference to killing also. In addition to what I already said "Even though this is unproven, you may wish to research elsewhere in AQ where murder is discussed and a punishment stipulated - how to reconcile the differences if any etc."
To summarise, your equating of 533 with punishment for murder is weak/inconclusive unless you can provide further evidence.
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Perhaps if you answered my questions, and actually read the links I gave, it might become clearer to you.
If it doesn't mention murder, then how can it be classed as "clear"? Is it "clear" because if it isn't, the central point in your post fails?
Oppression/persecution is worse than being killed is it not? See 2217.
Did you even bother to read the thread I referenced?
No I'm not. I am saying only what The Quran is saying, it is about those who wage war against God and His messenger and strive for corruption in the land.
You did not quote the verses before it. Perhaps you meant by way of cross-referencing, you think what you referenced is what it refers to.
Are you now implying the only "mischief/corruption in the land" is killing of others? I have not studied it, but I would need more evidence by way of full cross referencing. You would also need to show "wage war against God and His messenger" is only in reference to killing also. In addition to what I already said "Even though this is unproven, you may wish to research elsewhere in AQ where murder is discussed and a punishment stipulated - how to reconcile the differences if any etc."
To summarise, your equating of 533 with punishment for murder is weak/inconclusive unless you can provide further evidence.
For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.?
I think its clear that fasad is meant as the opposite of keeping a life alive. You have not provided any explanation as to what it means. You are reading "waging war" as if it is seperate from fasad and you are reading that verse as seperate from before it even if the term fasad is used in the verse before it as meaning the opposite of saving a life and I have shown from the Koran where fasad is used as such.
I still don't know what you are saying. Why don't you give me your interpretation of the verse? What is it that deserves execution and crucifixion and what exactly is fasad then?
Plus the link you provided does not make any sense. You said
"You state that we cant agree on any legal framework, yet fail to bring any specifics. Further, you assume that there is a standard ritual XYZ, or one size fits all concept, when you haven't even proven this from AQ! In other words, your argument is baseless"
"So rather than assuming anything about me, let's stick to an actual evidence based discussion. "
And who exactly is assuming something about YOU? The fact that we obviously can't even agree on this subject is a confirmation of what I said. We can't agree even on the question of capital punishment.
What is it that deserves execution and crucifixion in your mind?
To me its crystal clear. Fasad is killing and murdering, thats how the angels understood it and thats how I understand it.
Oppression/persecution is worse than being killed is it not? See 2217
The verse you also quoted is fitna and not fasad. I provided verses from the Koran where fasad is used for killing and slaying. Plus the verse is not complete
- They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein
This is talking about fighting and warfare. The Koran has many verses about this.
76..8 And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,-
47.4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them) thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded) but if it had been Allah.s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
8.67-70. It is not fitting for an apostle that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise. Had it not been for a previous ordainment from Allah, a severe penalty would have reached you for the (ransom) that ye took. But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good but fear Allah. for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. O Messenger. say to those who are captives in your hands "If Allah findeth any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
This has nothing to do with this
- The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
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I guess I can simplify even more so we can actually get somewhere. Let's take this one step at a time.
Please answer the following
Does waging war against Allah and His messenger and striving for corruption in the land always involve murder?Yes/No
If other, clarify.
To me its crystal clear. Fasad is killing and murdering, thats how the angels understood it and thats how I understand it.
Are you saying you have cross referenced the word "fasad" in The Quran and it always refers to "killing and murdering"?
Yes/No
If other, clarify.
As a sidenote, when I asked if you had bothered to read the thread I referenced, I meant the one I referenced that was about this topic
Background reading
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15944 -
I guess I can simplify even more so we can actually get somewhere. Let's take this one step at a time.
Please answer the following
Does waging war against Allah and His messenger and striving for corruption in the land always involve murder?Yes/No
If other, clarify.
Are you saying you have cross referenced the word "fasad" in The Quran and it always refers to "killing and murdering"?
Yes/No
If other, clarify.
It doesn't have to always mean killing and murdering after all the Koran many times uses similar terms differently depending on context. But its a question as to which meaning fits the verse and makes it make sense.
Second the Koran when it says waging war and spreading mischief we have to look at what the verse is trying to say. The problem is I see it as a continuation of the previous verses after all the Koran does not indicate the topic has changed. I have considered all other possibilities and i see it as a continuation of the story of Adam and his two sons and I see it as talking about murder and killing civilians. Waging war is a very general term as the Koran uses the term harb and not qital. We can never knoiw fully the meaning of every verse in the Koran as we are not there to know the circumstances. All I can do is try to deduce from the Koran what the verse is saying. The Koran would not say execution for just fighting against Muhammad as the Koran has talked about this subject in many areas of the Koran and those who are captured are considered prisoners. The verse can not mean prisoners and has to mean those like the Pharoah, who kill civilians. Maybe those same killers were also fighting Muhammad or were within his vicinity or its talking about a seperate group. Most likely they were fighting him and killing civilians on the way. We will never know. But I don't seperate that verse from the previous topic. The koran never used the term fasad to mean fighting.
I have not been able to find any other meaning for that verse except fasad as it is understood in many parts of the Koran, which is killing civilians and innocent people.
So to answer your question, yes, I believe waging war AND spreading mischief is about killing of civilians. Last the Koran never said that the event occured, its saying if it did occur.
Either way, the Koran gave Muhamamd the option of execution or exile from the community. So whatever punishment that deserves death can also be exile from the community. And prison is a form of exile from the community, so anyways it makes no difference what its talking about.
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Ok, now we are getting somewhere...
On the one hand you are saying in this context/verse it means "killing and murdering", but on the other you admit "It doesn't have to always mean killing and murdering after all the Koran many times uses similar terms differently depending on context."
In such a situation, it is simply a matter of weighing up evidence to determine the most accurate meaning.
I have not been able to find any other meaning for that verse except fasad as it is understood in many parts of the Koran, which is killing civilians and innocent people.
As you know the word "fasad" is used many times in The Quran. Can you reference the "many" occurrences that support your view? Cross referencing is easy these days, as there are plenty of online tools that allow you to do this. This will help in the weighing of evidence.
Either way, the Koran gave Muhamamd the option of execution or exile from the community. So whatever punishment that deserves death can also be exile from the community. And prison is a form of exile from the community, so anyways it makes no difference what its talking about.
That's only if you think it refers to one thing only, in your case killing and murdering. Has it ever crossed your mind that "waging war against God and His messenger and striving for corruption in the land" could involve a range of things, hence the range in punishments?
Further, as I said to you already, when The Quran discusses punishment for murder, it doesn't mention the options in this verse, so reconcilling the differences is for you to resolve.Ironically, your main point is that death penalty is not a must for murder, which I agree with! But you are using a verse to back-up your claim when the verse does no such thing.
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Ok, now we are getting somewhere...
On the one hand you are saying in this context/verse it means "killing and murdering", but on the other you admit "It doesn't have to always mean killing and murdering after all the Koran many times uses similar terms differently depending on context."
In such a situation, it is simply a matter of weighing up evidence to determine the most accurate meaning.
As you know the word "fasad" is used many times in The Quran. Can you reference the "many" occurrences that support your view? Cross referencing is easy these days, as there are plenty of online tools that allow you to do this. This will help in the weighing of evidence.
That's only if you think it refers to one thing only, in your case killing and murdering. Has it ever crossed your mind that "waging war against God and His messenger and striving for corruption in the land" could involve a range of things, hence the range in punishments?
Further, as I said to you already, when The Quran discusses punishment for murder, it doesn't mention the options in this verse, so reconcilling the differences is for you to resolve.Ironically, your main point is that death penalty is not a must for murder, which I agree with! But you are using a verse to back-up your claim when the verse does no such thing.
All the use of the word fasad in the Koran indicates murdering of civilians and plundering.
2.205. When he turns his back, His aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and cattle. But Allah loveth not mischief.
5.64. The Jews say "(Allah)'s hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.
8.73. The Unbelievers are protectors, one of another Unless ye do this, (protect each other), there would be tumult and oppression on earth, and great mischief
11.116-117. Why were there not, among the generations before you, persons possessed of balanced good sense, prohibiting (men) from mischief in the earth - except a few among them whom We saved (from harm)? But the wrong-doers pursued the enjoyment of the good things of life which were given them, and persisted in sin. Nor would thy Lord be the One to destroy communities for a single wrong- doing, if its members were likely to mend
28.77. "But seek, with the (wealth) which Allah has bestowed on thee, the Home of the Hereafter, nor forget thy portion in this world but do thou good, as Allah has been good to thee, and seek not (occasions for) mischief in the land for Allah loves not those who do mischief."
40.26. Said Pharaoh "Leave me to slay Moses; and let him call on his Lord! What I fear is lest he should change your religion, or lest he should cause mischief to appear in the land!"
30.41. Mischief has appeared on land and sea because of (the meed) that the hands of men have earned, that ((Allah)) may give them a taste of some of their deeds in order that they may turn back (from Evil).
89.113. And with Pharaoh, lord of stakes? (All) these transgressed beyond bounds in the lands, And heaped therein mischief (on mischief). Therefore did thy Lord pour on them a scourge of diverse chastisements
As far as the verses we are talking about. Its crystal clear what the verse is talking about.
For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.?
WE can see here the Koran believes fasad can require the death penalty. Now, other than the story of Moses and the worshiping of the calf, nowhere does the Koran talk about execution. And even in the case of Moses and the Israelites, it was a voluntary order given to them. In the story of the cave we have
18.74. Then they proceeded until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"
Here Moses asked the person how can you slay someone who has not killed anyone(murder). So we have now the Koran saying
- The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
This is clear cut reference to murder and killing and plundering since nowehere the Koran talks about execution unless its about murder. So to say the verse is not supporting of this is a stretch, comsidering the topic it came on.
Lets look at the verses again and you can see the topic starts with "recite to them"
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Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah. It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous.
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"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.
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"For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong."
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The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones.
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Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets-
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On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
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The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
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Except for those who repent before they fall into your power in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
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O ye who believe! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause that ye may prosper
Its obvious that only in verse 35, did the topic changed. Verse 33 and 34 were part of the "recite to them" topic.
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You admit fasad can now also mean "plundering", as you put it. Anyone who checks the references for fasad will know it can apply more widely than "murder and killing and plundering", thus your attempt to lock fasad to "murder and killing" is weak.
Your only fall back is to say in this context it means "killing and murder". Again, this is weak. If fasad was murder and killing in this context, then why say murder or fasad in the land in 532 if it essentially meant the same thing. Further, you have to reconcile the differences in other verses mentioning penalty of murder and your understanding of this verse (see previous referenced link).
This is clear cut reference to murder and killing and plundering since nowehere the Koran talks about execution unless its about murder.
Note how you now also include "plundering". I also recommend reading chapter 9.
My main point was that your use of 533 to make your case was weak. I think this has been sufficiently proven. At the very least, your position on this verse cannot be considered solid. I dont think there is much to add.
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You admit fasad can now also mean "plundering", as you put it. Anyone who checks the references for fasad will know it can apply more widely than "murder and killing and plundering", thus your attempt to lock fasad to "murder and killing" is weak.
Your only fall back is to say in this context it means "killing and murder". Again, this is weak. If fasad was murder and killing in this context, then why say murder or fasad in the land in 532 if it essentially meant the same thing. Further, you have to reconcile the differences in other verses mentioning penalty of murder and your understanding of this verse (see previous referenced link).
Note how you now also include "plundering". I also recommend reading chapter 9.
My main point was that your use of 533 to make your case was weak. I think this has been sufficiently proven. At the very least, your position on this verse cannot be considered solid. I dont think there is much to add.
Thats sunni talk. Obey God and obey the messenger is not the same thing? The Koran and wisdom is not the same thing? Plundering simply means mass killing as the case with the Pharoah where the Koran describes him as mufsideen.
And what is it that has been sufficiently proven? Its obvious to me the verse is talking about murder, if not then what is it talking about then? I am still not sure what you are trying to say. You seem to be saying it does not have to mean murder. Then what is it? Rape?
I have shown the Koran would not talk about execution except in case of murder and I have shown from the verse about Moses this to be true. You have not provided a single reference from the koran and I have provided several.
What do you think the verse means?
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Thats sunni talk. Obey God and obey the messenger is not the same thing? The Koran and wisdom is not the same thing? Plundering simply means mass killing as the case with the Pharoah where the Koran describes him as mufsideen.
And what is it that has been sufficiently proven? Its obvious to me the verse is talking about murder, if not then what is it talking about then? I am still not sure what you are trying to say. You seem to be saying it does not have to mean murder. Then what is it? Rape?
I have shown the Koran would not talk about execution except in case of murder and I have shown from the verse about Moses this to be true. You have not provided a single reference from the koran and I have provided several.
What do you think the verse means?
What about the commandment "Thou shall not kill"
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What about the commandment "Thou shall not kill"
1733 You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred/for killing is forbidden - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be helped.
532 It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel, "Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed mischief in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! Whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of them are, after this, still transgressing on the earth.
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Thats sunni talk. Obey God and obey the messenger is not the same thing? The Koran and wisdom is not the same thing?
Do I really have to tell an Arabic speaking and reading person the difference between "aw/or" and "waw/and"?
Plundering simply means mass killing as the case with the Pharoah where the Koran describes him as mufsideen.
I thought you were using the Dictionary definition of "plundering" and not your own made up version.
And what is it that has been sufficiently proven? Its obvious to me the verse is talking about murder, if not then what is it talking about then? I am still not sure what you are trying to say. You seem to be saying it does not have to mean murder. Then what is it? Rape?
I suggest re-reading the verse. If still unsure, read your first response to me in this thread, you already said what it was about. Further, perhaps you are struggling to see what it is about because you erroneously think "fasad" is locked to "killing and murdering". A simple review of its occurrences in The Quran disproves your view.
I have shown the Koran would not talk about execution except in case of murder and I have shown from the verse about Moses this to be true. You have not provided a single reference from the koran and I have provided several.
When I said read chapter 9, was this not a Quranic reference? Specifically see 95, 2190-194.
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Do I really have to tell an Arabic speaking and reading person the difference between "aw/or" and "waw/and"?
I thought you were using the Dictionary definition of "plundering" and not your own made up version.
I suggest re-reading the verse. If still unsure, read your first response to me in this thread, you already said what it was about. Further, perhaps you are struggling to see what it is about because you erroneously think "fasad" is locked to "killing and murdering". A simple review of its occurrences in The Quran disproves your view.
When I said read chapter 9, was this not a Quranic reference? Specifically see 95, 2190-194.
Why don't you answer my question and tell me what that verse is talking about.
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But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
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If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
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How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them for Allah doth love the righteous.
As far as 2.190 to 194 its talking about battles. People who are caught in such situations are prisoners.
So what are you saying that the Koran says we should execute prisoners or crucify them? You seem to interpret the verse as anyone who goes to war. That would be at odds with other verses of the Koran that does talk about prisoners. Plus you said i agreed with that before, I was talking about the intention of wars with Muhammad was different from other wars however I was not talking about a battle. I said the Koran could be talking about a seperate group of people but its clear from the Koran that fasad is used for killing of civilians. When it says those who wage war and spread fasad it never said that it did happen even though the Koran talks about many battles.
2.190-194
This is talking about a treaty between Muhammad and the pagans and the people involved are prisoners. This in my mind has nothing to do with what wer are talking about. The Koran already talked about prisoners and I have shown that.
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