The Koran and the Death Penalty
-
I am not sure what you are saying.
Perhaps if you answered my questions, and actually read the links I gave, it might become clearer to you.
yet this verse is clearly talking about murder and killing.
If it doesn't mention murder, then how can it be classed as "clear"? Is it "clear" because if it isn't, the central point in your post fails?
Why else will it stipulate execution?
Oppression/persecution is worse than being killed is it not? See 2217.
There is no other verse in the Koran that deals with murder except this one.
Did you even bother to read the thread I referenced?
You seem to be saying that this verse is talking about prisoners of war.
No I'm not. I am saying only what The Quran is saying, it is about those who wage war against God and His messenger and strive for corruption in the land.
Anyways this verse is a clear continuation of the verses before it.
You did not quote the verses before it. Perhaps you meant by way of cross-referencing, you think what you referenced is what it refers to.
Are you now implying the only "mischief/corruption in the land" is killing of others? I have not studied it, but I would need more evidence by way of full cross referencing. You would also need to show "wage war against God and His messenger" is only in reference to killing also. In addition to what I already said "Even though this is unproven, you may wish to research elsewhere in AQ where murder is discussed and a punishment stipulated - how to reconcile the differences if any etc."
To summarise, your equating of 533 with punishment for murder is weak/inconclusive unless you can provide further evidence.
-
Perhaps if you answered my questions, and actually read the links I gave, it might become clearer to you.
If it doesn't mention murder, then how can it be classed as "clear"? Is it "clear" because if it isn't, the central point in your post fails?
Oppression/persecution is worse than being killed is it not? See 2217.
Did you even bother to read the thread I referenced?
No I'm not. I am saying only what The Quran is saying, it is about those who wage war against God and His messenger and strive for corruption in the land.
You did not quote the verses before it. Perhaps you meant by way of cross-referencing, you think what you referenced is what it refers to.
Are you now implying the only "mischief/corruption in the land" is killing of others? I have not studied it, but I would need more evidence by way of full cross referencing. You would also need to show "wage war against God and His messenger" is only in reference to killing also. In addition to what I already said "Even though this is unproven, you may wish to research elsewhere in AQ where murder is discussed and a punishment stipulated - how to reconcile the differences if any etc."
To summarise, your equating of 533 with punishment for murder is weak/inconclusive unless you can provide further evidence.
For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.?
I think its clear that fasad is meant as the opposite of keeping a life alive. You have not provided any explanation as to what it means. You are reading "waging war" as if it is seperate from fasad and you are reading that verse as seperate from before it even if the term fasad is used in the verse before it as meaning the opposite of saving a life and I have shown from the Koran where fasad is used as such.
I still don't know what you are saying. Why don't you give me your interpretation of the verse? What is it that deserves execution and crucifixion and what exactly is fasad then?
Plus the link you provided does not make any sense. You said
"You state that we cant agree on any legal framework, yet fail to bring any specifics. Further, you assume that there is a standard ritual XYZ, or one size fits all concept, when you haven't even proven this from AQ! In other words, your argument is baseless"
"So rather than assuming anything about me, let's stick to an actual evidence based discussion. "
And who exactly is assuming something about YOU? The fact that we obviously can't even agree on this subject is a confirmation of what I said. We can't agree even on the question of capital punishment.
What is it that deserves execution and crucifixion in your mind?
To me its crystal clear. Fasad is killing and murdering, thats how the angels understood it and thats how I understand it.
Oppression/persecution is worse than being killed is it not? See 2217
The verse you also quoted is fitna and not fasad. I provided verses from the Koran where fasad is used for killing and slaying. Plus the verse is not complete
- They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say "Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members." Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein
This is talking about fighting and warfare. The Koran has many verses about this.
76..8 And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,-
47.4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them) thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded) but if it had been Allah.s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
8.67-70. It is not fitting for an apostle that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise. Had it not been for a previous ordainment from Allah, a severe penalty would have reached you for the (ransom) that ye took. But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good but fear Allah. for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. O Messenger. say to those who are captives in your hands "If Allah findeth any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
This has nothing to do with this
- The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
-
I guess I can simplify even more so we can actually get somewhere. Let's take this one step at a time.
Please answer the following
Does waging war against Allah and His messenger and striving for corruption in the land always involve murder?Yes/No
If other, clarify.
To me its crystal clear. Fasad is killing and murdering, thats how the angels understood it and thats how I understand it.
Are you saying you have cross referenced the word "fasad" in The Quran and it always refers to "killing and murdering"?
Yes/No
If other, clarify.
As a sidenote, when I asked if you had bothered to read the thread I referenced, I meant the one I referenced that was about this topic
Background reading
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15944 -
I guess I can simplify even more so we can actually get somewhere. Let's take this one step at a time.
Please answer the following
Does waging war against Allah and His messenger and striving for corruption in the land always involve murder?Yes/No
If other, clarify.
Are you saying you have cross referenced the word "fasad" in The Quran and it always refers to "killing and murdering"?
Yes/No
If other, clarify.
It doesn't have to always mean killing and murdering after all the Koran many times uses similar terms differently depending on context. But its a question as to which meaning fits the verse and makes it make sense.
Second the Koran when it says waging war and spreading mischief we have to look at what the verse is trying to say. The problem is I see it as a continuation of the previous verses after all the Koran does not indicate the topic has changed. I have considered all other possibilities and i see it as a continuation of the story of Adam and his two sons and I see it as talking about murder and killing civilians. Waging war is a very general term as the Koran uses the term harb and not qital. We can never knoiw fully the meaning of every verse in the Koran as we are not there to know the circumstances. All I can do is try to deduce from the Koran what the verse is saying. The Koran would not say execution for just fighting against Muhammad as the Koran has talked about this subject in many areas of the Koran and those who are captured are considered prisoners. The verse can not mean prisoners and has to mean those like the Pharoah, who kill civilians. Maybe those same killers were also fighting Muhammad or were within his vicinity or its talking about a seperate group. Most likely they were fighting him and killing civilians on the way. We will never know. But I don't seperate that verse from the previous topic. The koran never used the term fasad to mean fighting.
I have not been able to find any other meaning for that verse except fasad as it is understood in many parts of the Koran, which is killing civilians and innocent people.
So to answer your question, yes, I believe waging war AND spreading mischief is about killing of civilians. Last the Koran never said that the event occured, its saying if it did occur.
Either way, the Koran gave Muhamamd the option of execution or exile from the community. So whatever punishment that deserves death can also be exile from the community. And prison is a form of exile from the community, so anyways it makes no difference what its talking about.
-
Ok, now we are getting somewhere...
On the one hand you are saying in this context/verse it means "killing and murdering", but on the other you admit "It doesn't have to always mean killing and murdering after all the Koran many times uses similar terms differently depending on context."
In such a situation, it is simply a matter of weighing up evidence to determine the most accurate meaning.
I have not been able to find any other meaning for that verse except fasad as it is understood in many parts of the Koran, which is killing civilians and innocent people.
As you know the word "fasad" is used many times in The Quran. Can you reference the "many" occurrences that support your view? Cross referencing is easy these days, as there are plenty of online tools that allow you to do this. This will help in the weighing of evidence.
Either way, the Koran gave Muhamamd the option of execution or exile from the community. So whatever punishment that deserves death can also be exile from the community. And prison is a form of exile from the community, so anyways it makes no difference what its talking about.
That's only if you think it refers to one thing only, in your case killing and murdering. Has it ever crossed your mind that "waging war against God and His messenger and striving for corruption in the land" could involve a range of things, hence the range in punishments?
Further, as I said to you already, when The Quran discusses punishment for murder, it doesn't mention the options in this verse, so reconcilling the differences is for you to resolve.Ironically, your main point is that death penalty is not a must for murder, which I agree with! But you are using a verse to back-up your claim when the verse does no such thing.
-
Ok, now we are getting somewhere...
On the one hand you are saying in this context/verse it means "killing and murdering", but on the other you admit "It doesn't have to always mean killing and murdering after all the Koran many times uses similar terms differently depending on context."
In such a situation, it is simply a matter of weighing up evidence to determine the most accurate meaning.
As you know the word "fasad" is used many times in The Quran. Can you reference the "many" occurrences that support your view? Cross referencing is easy these days, as there are plenty of online tools that allow you to do this. This will help in the weighing of evidence.
That's only if you think it refers to one thing only, in your case killing and murdering. Has it ever crossed your mind that "waging war against God and His messenger and striving for corruption in the land" could involve a range of things, hence the range in punishments?
Further, as I said to you already, when The Quran discusses punishment for murder, it doesn't mention the options in this verse, so reconcilling the differences is for you to resolve.Ironically, your main point is that death penalty is not a must for murder, which I agree with! But you are using a verse to back-up your claim when the verse does no such thing.
All the use of the word fasad in the Koran indicates murdering of civilians and plundering.
2.205. When he turns his back, His aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and cattle. But Allah loveth not mischief.
5.64. The Jews say "(Allah)'s hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.
8.73. The Unbelievers are protectors, one of another Unless ye do this, (protect each other), there would be tumult and oppression on earth, and great mischief
11.116-117. Why were there not, among the generations before you, persons possessed of balanced good sense, prohibiting (men) from mischief in the earth - except a few among them whom We saved (from harm)? But the wrong-doers pursued the enjoyment of the good things of life which were given them, and persisted in sin. Nor would thy Lord be the One to destroy communities for a single wrong- doing, if its members were likely to mend
28.77. "But seek, with the (wealth) which Allah has bestowed on thee, the Home of the Hereafter, nor forget thy portion in this world but do thou good, as Allah has been good to thee, and seek not (occasions for) mischief in the land for Allah loves not those who do mischief."
40.26. Said Pharaoh "Leave me to slay Moses; and let him call on his Lord! What I fear is lest he should change your religion, or lest he should cause mischief to appear in the land!"
30.41. Mischief has appeared on land and sea because of (the meed) that the hands of men have earned, that ((Allah)) may give them a taste of some of their deeds in order that they may turn back (from Evil).
89.113. And with Pharaoh, lord of stakes? (All) these transgressed beyond bounds in the lands, And heaped therein mischief (on mischief). Therefore did thy Lord pour on them a scourge of diverse chastisements
As far as the verses we are talking about. Its crystal clear what the verse is talking about.
For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.?
WE can see here the Koran believes fasad can require the death penalty. Now, other than the story of Moses and the worshiping of the calf, nowhere does the Koran talk about execution. And even in the case of Moses and the Israelites, it was a voluntary order given to them. In the story of the cave we have
18.74. Then they proceeded until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"
Here Moses asked the person how can you slay someone who has not killed anyone(murder). So we have now the Koran saying
- The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
This is clear cut reference to murder and killing and plundering since nowehere the Koran talks about execution unless its about murder. So to say the verse is not supporting of this is a stretch, comsidering the topic it came on.
Lets look at the verses again and you can see the topic starts with "recite to them"
-
Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah. It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous.
-
"If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.
-
"For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong."
-
The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones.
-
Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets-
-
On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
-
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
-
Except for those who repent before they fall into your power in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
-
O ye who believe! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause that ye may prosper
Its obvious that only in verse 35, did the topic changed. Verse 33 and 34 were part of the "recite to them" topic.
-
You admit fasad can now also mean "plundering", as you put it. Anyone who checks the references for fasad will know it can apply more widely than "murder and killing and plundering", thus your attempt to lock fasad to "murder and killing" is weak.
Your only fall back is to say in this context it means "killing and murder". Again, this is weak. If fasad was murder and killing in this context, then why say murder or fasad in the land in 532 if it essentially meant the same thing. Further, you have to reconcile the differences in other verses mentioning penalty of murder and your understanding of this verse (see previous referenced link).
This is clear cut reference to murder and killing and plundering since nowehere the Koran talks about execution unless its about murder.
Note how you now also include "plundering". I also recommend reading chapter 9.
My main point was that your use of 533 to make your case was weak. I think this has been sufficiently proven. At the very least, your position on this verse cannot be considered solid. I dont think there is much to add.
-
You admit fasad can now also mean "plundering", as you put it. Anyone who checks the references for fasad will know it can apply more widely than "murder and killing and plundering", thus your attempt to lock fasad to "murder and killing" is weak.
Your only fall back is to say in this context it means "killing and murder". Again, this is weak. If fasad was murder and killing in this context, then why say murder or fasad in the land in 532 if it essentially meant the same thing. Further, you have to reconcile the differences in other verses mentioning penalty of murder and your understanding of this verse (see previous referenced link).
Note how you now also include "plundering". I also recommend reading chapter 9.
My main point was that your use of 533 to make your case was weak. I think this has been sufficiently proven. At the very least, your position on this verse cannot be considered solid. I dont think there is much to add.
Thats sunni talk. Obey God and obey the messenger is not the same thing? The Koran and wisdom is not the same thing? Plundering simply means mass killing as the case with the Pharoah where the Koran describes him as mufsideen.
And what is it that has been sufficiently proven? Its obvious to me the verse is talking about murder, if not then what is it talking about then? I am still not sure what you are trying to say. You seem to be saying it does not have to mean murder. Then what is it? Rape?
I have shown the Koran would not talk about execution except in case of murder and I have shown from the verse about Moses this to be true. You have not provided a single reference from the koran and I have provided several.
What do you think the verse means?
-
Thats sunni talk. Obey God and obey the messenger is not the same thing? The Koran and wisdom is not the same thing? Plundering simply means mass killing as the case with the Pharoah where the Koran describes him as mufsideen.
And what is it that has been sufficiently proven? Its obvious to me the verse is talking about murder, if not then what is it talking about then? I am still not sure what you are trying to say. You seem to be saying it does not have to mean murder. Then what is it? Rape?
I have shown the Koran would not talk about execution except in case of murder and I have shown from the verse about Moses this to be true. You have not provided a single reference from the koran and I have provided several.
What do you think the verse means?
What about the commandment "Thou shall not kill"
-
What about the commandment "Thou shall not kill"
1733 You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred/for killing is forbidden - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be helped.
532 It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel, "Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed mischief in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! Whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of them are, after this, still transgressing on the earth.
-
Thats sunni talk. Obey God and obey the messenger is not the same thing? The Koran and wisdom is not the same thing?
Do I really have to tell an Arabic speaking and reading person the difference between "aw/or" and "waw/and"?
Plundering simply means mass killing as the case with the Pharoah where the Koran describes him as mufsideen.
I thought you were using the Dictionary definition of "plundering" and not your own made up version.
And what is it that has been sufficiently proven? Its obvious to me the verse is talking about murder, if not then what is it talking about then? I am still not sure what you are trying to say. You seem to be saying it does not have to mean murder. Then what is it? Rape?
I suggest re-reading the verse. If still unsure, read your first response to me in this thread, you already said what it was about. Further, perhaps you are struggling to see what it is about because you erroneously think "fasad" is locked to "killing and murdering". A simple review of its occurrences in The Quran disproves your view.
I have shown the Koran would not talk about execution except in case of murder and I have shown from the verse about Moses this to be true. You have not provided a single reference from the koran and I have provided several.
When I said read chapter 9, was this not a Quranic reference? Specifically see 95, 2190-194.
-
Do I really have to tell an Arabic speaking and reading person the difference between "aw/or" and "waw/and"?
I thought you were using the Dictionary definition of "plundering" and not your own made up version.
I suggest re-reading the verse. If still unsure, read your first response to me in this thread, you already said what it was about. Further, perhaps you are struggling to see what it is about because you erroneously think "fasad" is locked to "killing and murdering". A simple review of its occurrences in The Quran disproves your view.
When I said read chapter 9, was this not a Quranic reference? Specifically see 95, 2190-194.
Why don't you answer my question and tell me what that verse is talking about.
-
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
-
If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
-
How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them for Allah doth love the righteous.
As far as 2.190 to 194 its talking about battles. People who are caught in such situations are prisoners.
So what are you saying that the Koran says we should execute prisoners or crucify them? You seem to interpret the verse as anyone who goes to war. That would be at odds with other verses of the Koran that does talk about prisoners. Plus you said i agreed with that before, I was talking about the intention of wars with Muhammad was different from other wars however I was not talking about a battle. I said the Koran could be talking about a seperate group of people but its clear from the Koran that fasad is used for killing of civilians. When it says those who wage war and spread fasad it never said that it did happen even though the Koran talks about many battles.
2.190-194
This is talking about a treaty between Muhammad and the pagans and the people involved are prisoners. This in my mind has nothing to do with what wer are talking about. The Koran already talked about prisoners and I have shown that.
-
-
The Koran uses war against God and his messenger for usury
2.278-279. O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and give up what remains of your demand for usury, if ye are indeed believers. If ye do it not, Take notice of war from Allah and His Messenger. But if ye turn back, ye shall have your capital sums Deal not unjustly, and ye shall not be dealt with unjustly.
Here the Koran does not use the term "war from God and his messenger" to mean physical battles. It means that those who continue to engage in usury are opposing God and his messenger(The teachings of the Koran). The Koran however uses qital to mean actual physical battles. This is the only verse other than the verse we talked about where the term "war against God and his messenger" is mentioned.
You don't actually go to war with God, how can you, but its a symbolic term.
-
Bigmo,
The reason for not clearly stating my view was that I thought you would realise the answer yourself when your points were shown to be weak, especially so since you pretty much said what I think it is about, but even after our exchange so far you still persist in making incorrect claims such as "but its clear from the Koran that fasad is used for killing of civilians.". To put it bluntly, this is nonsense. Anyone can see this by looking up the occurrences in The Quran. No further comments from me on this aspect. You can believe what you wish.
This is talking about a treaty between Muhammad and the pagans and the people involved are prisoners. This in my mind has nothing to do with what wer are talking about. The Koran already talked about prisoners and I have shown that.
Further, when I referenced the verses (95, 2190-194), you gave us some sort of strange interpretation saying it is about prisoners.
Let me clarify why the verses I pointed out to you are relevant. You said the only time The Quran talks about execution (i.e. killing) it is for murder. Can you point out to us where in early chapter 9 murder is mentioned? If you cant, then your point is disproved.
When it says those who wage war and spread fasad it never said that it did happen even though the Koran talks about many battles.
Yes, I am aware of this, and I am also aware of the passive tense in the verse, see M. Asad's notes. In fact, in addition to what Asad says, it seems if the punishments were taken literally, they would have to be captured first before administering them, but when war-participants are captured what is described in this verse is not talked about, as it only talks about ransom/exchange or release at the end of war. Thus, I think we can effectively say Asad's interpretation is the most likely.
Now, onto what it is talking about...
Fasad simply means corruption / make wrong (e.g. destruction, war-mongering, violence). If it is done on such a large scale that it affects a community/land/region/country/etc (and by default, that it causes physical harm) then it can be termed "fasad in the land", and is great enough to warrant execution, if proven.
As you previously mentioned and also in your post above, "God and His messenger" is a reference to God's system/message, thus anything done in opposition to this AND the perpetrator(s) strive for "fasad in the land"..... then the repercussions are as 532 and elsewhere.
If "war from God and His messenger" is used alone then it simply means concerted effort, fight (not necessarily physically).The verses are very clear.
I repeat, your interpretation is weak unless you can provide further evidence. And by evidence, I mean something solid, not incorrect definitions and weak associations.
-
Bigmo,
The reason for not clearly stating my view was that I thought you would realise the answer yourself when your points were shown to be weak, especially so since you pretty much said what I think it is about, but even after our exchange so far you still persist in making incorrect claims such as "but its clear from the Koran that fasad is used for killing of civilians.". To put it bluntly, this is nonsense. Anyone can see this by looking up the occurrences in The Quran. No further comments from me on this aspect. You can believe what you wish.
Further, when I referenced the verses (95, 2190-194), you gave us some sort of strange interpretation saying it is about prisoners.
Let me clarify why the verses I pointed out to you are relevant. You said the only time The Quran talks about execution (i.e. killing) it is for murder. Can you point out to us where in early chapter 9 murder is mentioned? If you cant, then your point is disproved.
Yes, I am aware of this, and I am also aware of the passive tense in the verse, see M. Asad's notes. In fact, in addition to what Asad says, it seems if the punishments were taken literally, they would have to be captured first before administering them, but when war-participants are captured what is described in this verse is not talked about, as it only talks about ransom/exchange or release at the end of war. Thus, I think we can effectively say Asad's interpretation is the most likely.
Now, onto what it is talking about...
Fasad simply means corruption / make wrong (e.g. destruction, war-mongering, violence). If it is done on such a large scale that it affects a community/land/region/country/etc (and by default, that it causes physical harm) then it can be termed "fasad in the land", and is great enough to warrant execution, if proven.
As you previously mentioned and also in your post above, "God and His messenger" is a reference to God's system/message, thus anything done in opposition to this AND the perpetrator(s) strive for "fasad in the land"..... then the repercussions are as 532 and elsewhere.
If "war from God and His messenger" is used alone then it simply means concerted effort, fight (not necessarily physically).The verses are very clear.
I repeat, your interpretation is weak unless you can provide further evidence. And by evidence, I mean something solid, not incorrect definitions and weak associations.
Well lets agree to disagree and I don't like vague wordings like . "destruction, war-mongering, violence" which is just a long way of saying murder but i see it as mudering innocents as what Moses said and also how the Pharoah behaved while you see it as battles between combatants which is a BIG difference. Anyways I am not a reformist like Mr Assad, I rely on the Koran to interpret the Koran
18.74. Then they proceeded until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"
2.30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrat
28.4. Truly Pharaoh elated himself in the land and broke up its people into sections, depressing a small group among them their sons he slew, but he kept alive their females for he was indeed a maker of mischief
So I see no reason to change that interpretation. As far as chapter 9 you asked what does murder has to do with it. This is qital, and qital is slaying and those who are captured are prisoners of war and the Koran talked about that subject so i see no reason to interpret it as having anything to do with battles being fought as everyside of a battle thinks he is doing right and the Koran did lay some strict guidelines as far as prisoners are concerned.
-
(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term for Allah loveth the righteous.
-
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
-
If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
Thats prisoners of war and has nothing to do with verses in chapter 5 but you do not see it that way. I believe because of how you intepret "wage war against God and his messenger" and I have shown the Koran uses the same phrase with riba and it was not even talking about anything physical but you see it as battles being fought between two armies.
I see no similarities in our point of view even though you claim so, we differ in how we interpret "war against God and his messenger" as you see that as qital and you equate that with chapter 9 which means one thing only and that is you believe the verse is talking about prisoners of war. And I wonder what happened to verses about the prisoners of war in other parts of the Koran. Everyone can claim that someone is war mongering and spreading violence.
Anyways even if your definition of "destruction, war-mongering, violence" then the Koran anyways gave the option of execution or banishement from community so either way its still opens the door for abolishing the death penalty although i still see your connection to chapter 9 as a connection to prisoners of war who are accused of war mongering and causing violence, which basically is the definition of every battle on Earth.
I see this as going nowhere so lets agree to disagree.
-
-
Bigmo,
Your tactic of referencing a few verses and implying this is what "fasad" means, and ignoring the rest, are not going to work with me. Nice try though.
As I said, anyone who wishes to see what fasad means, simply needs to look up the occurrences, e.g. from PRL
Fa-Sin-Dal = to become evil/corrupted, invalid, decomposed, bad/spoiled/tainted, wrong, vicious, make mischief or foul deal. fasad - corruption/violence.
fasada vb. (1)
perf. act. 2251, 2122, 2371fasad n.m. 2205, 532, 533, 564, 873, 11116, 2877, 2883, 3041, 4026, 8912
afsada vb. (4)
perf. act. 2734
impf. act. 211, 227, 230, 2205, 756, 785, 7127, 1273, 1325, 1688, 174, 26152, 2748, 4722
pcple. act. 212, 260, 2220, 363, 564, 774, 786, 7103, 7142, 1040, 1081, 1091, 1185, 1894, 26183, 2714, 284, 2877, 2930, 2936, 3828LL, V6, p 180, 181
This is what Bigmo says about my view
while you see it (fasad) as battles between combatants
Incorrect. I never said that
Wakas Fasad simply means corruption / make wrong (e.g. destruction, war-mongering, violence).I have shown the Koran uses the same phrase with riba and it was not even talking about anything physical but you see it as battles being fought between two armies.
Incorrect. I never said that
Wakas If "war from God and His messenger" is used alone then it simply means concerted effort, fight (not necessarily physically).we differ in how we interpret "war against God and his messenger" as you see that as qital and you equate that with chapter 9 which means one thing only and that is you believe the verse is talking about prisoners of war.
Incorrect. I never said that
Wakas As you previously mentioned and also in your post above, "God and His messenger" is a reference to God's system/message, thus anything done in opposition to this AND the perpetrator(s) strive for "fasad in the land"..... then the repercussions are as 532 and elsewhere.
If "war from God and His messenger" is used alone then it simply means concerted effort, fight (not necessarily physically).As far as chapter 9 you asked what does murder has to do with it.
I never asked this. I asked you where is murder mentioned in it.
All of the above have one thing in common they are the result of your erroneous/false deductions, directly implying, either you cannot read properly or cannot think properly, or both.
I recommend
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
http//web.archive.org/web/20040415023848/http//www.santarosa.edu/~dpeterso/permanenthtml/lessonFRAME.htmlAnyways I am not a reformist like Mr Assad
I agree. You are nothing like M. Asad.
i still see your connection to chapter 9 as a connection to prisoners of war who are accused of war mongering and causing violence, which basically is the definition of every battle on Earth.
You further confirm your erroneous thinking by telling us chapter 9 refers to prisoners! I suggest everyone read chapter 9, and they will see the level of your thinking.
Chapter 9
- An acquittal/release from The God and His messenger to those with whom you made a treaty from among the polytheists.
- Therefore, roam the earth (prisoners roaming the earth? are they on day release?) for four months and know that you will not escape The God, and that The God will disgrace the ungrateful/rejecters.
- And an announcement from The God and His messenger to the people on the greatest/peak day of the conference/symposium "The God is quit/free from the polytheists and so is His messenger". If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape The God. And give news to those who conceal/reject of a painful retribution.
- Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among the polytheists (making treaties with prisoners?) if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you (from jail?); you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
- So when the restricted months are passed, then you may fight the polytheists wherever you find them (but aren't prisoners all in one place?), and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point (every point in jail? outside their cells?). If they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then clear/vacate their way/path. Truly, The God is Turning/Forgiving, Embracing/Merciful.
- And if anyone from the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the word of The God, then deliver him to his safety/security. This is because they are a people who do not know.
- How can those polytheists have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger, except for those with whom you made a pledge/agreement at the institute of acknowledging the restriction (is this jail in your interpretation?)? As long as they are straight with you, then you are straight with them. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
- How is it when they gain the upper-hand (from their cells?) they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts are hostile, and most of them are wicked.
- They purchased with The God's signs/revelations a small gain, so they could turn others from His path. Truly, evil is what they were doing.
- They do not respect believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. These are the transgressors/wrongdoers.
- But if they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers/allies in the obligation/system. We detail/explain our signs/revelations for a people who know.
- And if they break their oaths after making them, and they assail (cause damage) in your obligation/system (from jail?); then you may fight the chiefs of ungratefulness/rejection (chief prisoners?). Truly, their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then stop. (stop what? fighting from prison?)
Only God knows how you came to your interpretations. As a sidenote, if anyone on the forum has any idea how Bigmo came to the deductions he has, please help him out and clarify for us.
Everyone can claim that someone is war mongering and spreading violence.
But can they prove it by way of evidence as per Quranic requirements?
I see this as going nowhere so lets agree to disagree.
I am innocent of what you serve, and you are innocent of what I serve. God knows best.
-
Bigmo,
Your tactic of referencing a few verses and implying this is what "fasad" means, and ignoring the rest, are not going to work with me. Nice try though.
As I said, anyone who wishes to see what fasad means, simply needs to look up the occurrences, e.g. from PRL
This is what Bigmo says about my view
Incorrect. I never said that
Wakas Fasad simply means corruption / make wrong (e.g. destruction, war-mongering, violence).Incorrect. I never said that
Wakas If "war from God and His messenger" is used alone then it simply means concerted effort, fight (not necessarily physically).Incorrect. I never said that
Wakas As you previously mentioned and also in your post above, "God and His messenger" is a reference to God's system/message, thus anything done in opposition to this AND the perpetrator(s) strive for "fasad in the land"..... then the repercussions are as 532 and elsewhere.
If "war from God and His messenger" is used alone then it simply means concerted effort, fight (not necessarily physically).I never asked this. I asked you where is murder mentioned in it.
All of the above have one thing in common they are the result of your erroneous/false deductions, directly implying, either you cannot read properly or cannot think properly, or both.
I recommend
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
http//web.archive.org/web/20040415023848/http//www.santarosa.edu/~dpeterso/permanenthtml/lessonFRAME.htmlI agree. You are nothing like M. Asad.
You further confirm your erroneous thinking by telling us chapter 9 refers to prisoners! I suggest everyone read chapter 9, and they will see the level of your thinking.
Only God knows how you came to your interpretations. As a sidenote, if anyone on the forum has any idea how Bigmo came to the deductions he has, please help him out and clarify for us.
But can they prove it by way of evidence as per Quranic requirements?
I am innocent of what you serve, and you are innocent of what I serve. God knows best.
I have no clue as to what you are saying. Anyways this is not about Bigmo versus Wakas, its about the Koran and the death penalty.
As far as chapter 9, its says from the begining of the chapter that there was treaty that was signed between Muhammad and the pagans of Mecca. This treaty was signed due to the battles fought between them and the previous exile Muhammad and his forces suffered and the treaty was signed to give Muhammad access to the pilgrimage to Mecca. The Koran have given us many examples of the battles between Muhammad and the pagans of Mecca So there is a background knowledge about these two parties we can deduce.
- Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!
You seem to look at those verses in isolation to the larger issue between the parties involved. All waring parties have ceasefire agreements with the stronger party usually violating those ceasefires whenever they thing they can make some quick gains. This happened between the North of Sudan and the South of Sudan a lot of times with the Southern rebel forces usually accusing Khartoum of violating the ceasfire agreement. Hamas and Israel also have occasional ceasefire agreements either to hold talks or to bring humanitarian aide or to allow civilians to pass through. In chapter 9 its talking about the pilgrimage to Mecca. So this treaty happened while hostilities was still going on and a ceasefire was made just to allow the pilgrimage to take place.
Yet in all these ceasfires I have mentioned, if hostilities continue despite the ceasefire agreement, the parties captured are always considered prisoners of war. Many ceasfire agreements were violated by fighting parties and this happens all the time. But in all the occassions I know, anyone captured during these situations, is still a prisoner of war and is treated as such. If there was ambushes and shady groups of people involved then this is usually dealt with according to the situation and does not affect the two main fighting parties agreements with each other. I don't see whats erroneous about this at all. And I have said maybe the Koran was refering to such groups of people. There are people who like to take advantage of such situations. I know from Sudan that many armed gangs and highway robbers find opportunities during times of conflict usually posing as government forces or rebel groups but are not affiliated with any of them. Mecca and the rest of the Arabian peninsula had no real central authority and the area was dominated by tribes so many things could have been going on. Plus this is not about Wakas versus Bigmo and who is smarter, its about the Koran and the death penalty and not the Koran and prisoners of war. None of this has any bearing on the topic this thread tried to address.
Whatever you understand about what the verse 533 is talking about, the Koran gave the option of execution or banishment from the community. So as far as the Koran and the death penalty, it does not change the fact that the Koran believes that whatever deserves the death penalty or crucifxion or mutilation it also accepts banishment from the community. Jail ,as I said, is a form of banishment or exile from a community. Given the nature of the wordings of the Koran in verse 533, it sems the Koran is talking about a long banishment from the community and not just a brief time. This is due to the nature of the crime the crime addresses. This as we know, is usually an option given by many societies for capital punishment where people can be saved from execution but usually end up staying many years behind bars and many times they stay behind bars for life.
The real difference between me and you therefore is not relevant regarding this topic. The real difference is what we consider could be punishable by death. I see that as killing of civilians as per my interpretation of the Koran, while I am still not sure what is yours. I see this as moving away from the death penalty versus imprisonment to the topiuc of prisoners of war or who deserves the death penalty in the first place which is not relevant for this thread.
I said before the koran did not come to design for us rituals or a legal framework and we would always have to make deductions from the Koran based on the guidelines the Koran allows us. Thats how I understand the Koran and I try to understand the Koran as a whole and not on bits and pieces and then I try to make deductions.
I reiterate, we will never be able to fully understand the verses in the Koran fully, especially regarding the events around Muhammad. Muhammad's biography is extremely complex, but we can make deductions based on the guidelines the koran allows us and we can also do the same regarding the other prophets in the Koran. The Koran, as I see it, gives us two ends of extremes where we can work within. But its only guidelines for us to work within them, and we humans have to make our own choices within those guidelines based on our circumstances and experiences.
But I believe the koran must be read as a whole and not on bits and pieces as this does not give us the broad range of issues regarding a topic.
-
Peace
The punishment in the verse you mentioned is for those who wage war not for those who murder.
Joe
-
O you who believe! Be afraid of All?h and give up what remains from Rib? (usury) , if you are believers.
-
And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from All?h and His Messenger but if you repent, you shall have your capital sums. Deal not unjustly (by asking more than your capital sums), and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
-
And if the debtor is in a hard time , then grant him time till it is easy for him to repay, but if you remit it by way of charity, that is better for you if you did but know.
When we say war on poverty or a war on drugs we do not necessaril imply slaying, as the case with the term qital is used in the Koran regarding battles. So war is an all encompassing word. Plus your translation contradicts the teachings of the Koran in other parts when it deals with fighting as I have shown. In all cases the Koran considers those who are in battle with the prophet as prisoners and makes clear how they should be dealth with.
2.10-11 In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves). When it is said to them "Make not mischief on the earth," they say "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
2,60 And remember Moses prayed for water for his people; We said "Strike the rock with thy staff." Then gushed forth therefrom twelve springs. Each group knew its own place for water. So eat and drink of the sustenance provided by Allah. And do no evil nor mischief on the (face of the) earth.
7.85-86 To the Madyan people We sent Shu'aib, one of their own brethren he said "O my people! worship Allah; ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a Clear (Sign) from your Lord! give just measure and weight, nor withhold from the people the things that are their due; and do no mischief on the earth after it has been set in order that will be best for you, if ye have Faith "And squat not on every road, breathing threats, hindering from the path of Allah those who believe in Him, and seeking in it something crooked; But remember how ye were little, and He gave you increase. And hold in your mind's eye what was the end of those who did mischief.
11.84-86 To the Madyan People (We sent) Shu'aib, one of their own brethren he said "O my people! worship Allah. Ye have no other god but Him. And give not short measure or weight I see you in prosperity, but I fear for you the penalty of a day that will compass (you) all round. "And O my people! give just measure and weight, nor withhold from the people the things that are their due commit not evil in the land with intent to do mischief. "That which is left you by Allah is best for you, if ye (but) believed! but I am not set over you to keep watch!"
So mischief is many times the warnings of the prophets and so the Koran could have easily used war on Allah and His messenger to indicate opposition to the teachings of the Koran and the prophets and not actual physical battles. Mischief has been used in the Koran regarding a host of activities so we must deduce from other parts of the Koran what it means in verse 533.
2.30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrat
28.4. Truly Pharaoh elated himself in the land and broke up its people into sections, depressing a small group among them their sons he slew, but he kept alive their females for he was indeed a maker of mischief
Physical wars are fought by combatants and in this case the person involved is a prisoner. Imagine if the other side captures a follower of Muhammad, would they not be justified in executing them also if your interpretation is accurate. And who exactly are those mentioned in the Koran as prisoners of war then?
It does not add up.
Anyways whatever it is it does not matter since whatever society requires a death penalty for exile for community could also be applicable. But your interpretation goes against the verses of the Koran regarding battles fought between the prophet and the pagans and verses of the Koran regarding prisoners of war.
-
