The Koran and the Death Penalty

Bigmo

You admit fasad can now also mean "plundering", as you put it. Anyone who checks the references for fasad will know it can apply more widely than "murder and killing and plundering", thus your attempt to lock fasad to "murder and killing" is weak.

Your only fall back is to say in this context it means "killing and murder". Again, this is weak. If fasad was murder and killing in this context, then why say murder or fasad in the land in 532 if it essentially meant the same thing. Further, you have to reconcile the differences in other verses mentioning penalty of murder and your understanding of this verse (see previous referenced link).

Note how you now also include "plundering". I also recommend reading chapter 9.

My main point was that your use of 533 to make your case was weak. I think this has been sufficiently proven. At the very least, your position on this verse cannot be considered solid. I dont think there is much to add.

Thats sunni talk. Obey God and obey the messenger is not the same thing? The Koran and wisdom is not the same thing? Plundering simply means mass killing as the case with the Pharoah where the Koran describes him as mufsideen.

And what is it that has been sufficiently proven? Its obvious to me the verse is talking about murder, if not then what is it talking about then? I am still not sure what you are trying to say. You seem to be saying it does not have to mean murder. Then what is it? Rape?

I have shown the Koran would not talk about execution except in case of murder and I have shown from the verse about Moses this to be true. You have not provided a single reference from the koran and I have provided several.

What do you think the verse means?

Rev_John

Thats sunni talk. Obey God and obey the messenger is not the same thing? The Koran and wisdom is not the same thing? Plundering simply means mass killing as the case with the Pharoah where the Koran describes him as mufsideen.

And what is it that has been sufficiently proven? Its obvious to me the verse is talking about murder, if not then what is it talking about then? I am still not sure what you are trying to say. You seem to be saying it does not have to mean murder. Then what is it? Rape?

I have shown the Koran would not talk about execution except in case of murder and I have shown from the verse about Moses this to be true. You have not provided a single reference from the koran and I have provided several.

What do you think the verse means?

What about the commandment "Thou shall not kill"

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

What about the commandment "Thou shall not kill"

1733 You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred/for killing is forbidden - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder; he will be helped.

532 It is because of this that We have decreed for the Children of Israel, "Anyone who kills a person who has not committed murder, or who has not committed mischief in the land; then it is as if he has killed all the people! Whoever spares a life, then it is as if he has given life to all the people." Our messengers had come to them with clarification, but many of them are, after this, still transgressing on the earth.

Wakas

Thats sunni talk. Obey God and obey the messenger is not the same thing? The Koran and wisdom is not the same thing?

Do I really have to tell an Arabic speaking and reading person the difference between "aw/or" and "waw/and"?

Plundering simply means mass killing as the case with the Pharoah where the Koran describes him as mufsideen.

I thought you were using the Dictionary definition of "plundering" and not your own made up version.

And what is it that has been sufficiently proven? Its obvious to me the verse is talking about murder, if not then what is it talking about then? I am still not sure what you are trying to say. You seem to be saying it does not have to mean murder. Then what is it? Rape?

I suggest re-reading the verse. If still unsure, read your first response to me in this thread, you already said what it was about. Further, perhaps you are struggling to see what it is about because you erroneously think "fasad" is locked to "killing and murdering". A simple review of its occurrences in The Quran disproves your view.

I have shown the Koran would not talk about execution except in case of murder and I have shown from the verse about Moses this to be true. You have not provided a single reference from the koran and I have provided several.

When I said read chapter 9, was this not a Quranic reference? Specifically see 95, 2190-194.

Bigmo

Do I really have to tell an Arabic speaking and reading person the difference between "aw/or" and "waw/and"?

I thought you were using the Dictionary definition of "plundering" and not your own made up version.

I suggest re-reading the verse. If still unsure, read your first response to me in this thread, you already said what it was about. Further, perhaps you are struggling to see what it is about because you erroneously think "fasad" is locked to "killing and murdering". A simple review of its occurrences in The Quran disproves your view.

When I said read chapter 9, was this not a Quranic reference? Specifically see 95, 2190-194.

Why don't you answer my question and tell me what that verse is talking about.

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them for Allah doth love the righteous.

As far as 2.190 to 194 its talking about battles. People who are caught in such situations are prisoners.

So what are you saying that the Koran says we should execute prisoners or crucify them? You seem to interpret the verse as anyone who goes to war. That would be at odds with other verses of the Koran that does talk about prisoners. Plus you said i agreed with that before, I was talking about the intention of wars with Muhammad was different from other wars however I was not talking about a battle. I said the Koran could be talking about a seperate group of people but its clear from the Koran that fasad is used for killing of civilians. When it says those who wage war and spread fasad it never said that it did happen even though the Koran talks about many battles.

2.190-194

This is talking about a treaty between Muhammad and the pagans and the people involved are prisoners. This in my mind has nothing to do with what wer are talking about. The Koran already talked about prisoners and I have shown that.

Bigmo

What about the commandment "Thou shall not kill"

We are talking about what the Koran says regarding those who murder. We all know thou shall not kill.

Bigmo

The Koran uses war against God and his messenger for usury

2.278-279. O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and give up what remains of your demand for usury, if ye are indeed believers. If ye do it not, Take notice of war from Allah and His Messenger. But if ye turn back, ye shall have your capital sums Deal not unjustly, and ye shall not be dealt with unjustly.

Here the Koran does not use the term "war from God and his messenger" to mean physical battles. It means that those who continue to engage in usury are opposing God and his messenger(The teachings of the Koran). The Koran however uses qital to mean actual physical battles. This is the only verse other than the verse we talked about where the term "war against God and his messenger" is mentioned.

You don't actually go to war with God, how can you, but its a symbolic term.

Wakas

Bigmo,

The reason for not clearly stating my view was that I thought you would realise the answer yourself when your points were shown to be weak, especially so since you pretty much said what I think it is about, but even after our exchange so far you still persist in making incorrect claims such as "but its clear from the Koran that fasad is used for killing of civilians.". To put it bluntly, this is nonsense. Anyone can see this by looking up the occurrences in The Quran. No further comments from me on this aspect. You can believe what you wish.

This is talking about a treaty between Muhammad and the pagans and the people involved are prisoners. This in my mind has nothing to do with what wer are talking about. The Koran already talked about prisoners and I have shown that.

Further, when I referenced the verses (95, 2190-194), you gave us some sort of strange interpretation saying it is about prisoners.

Let me clarify why the verses I pointed out to you are relevant. You said the only time The Quran talks about execution (i.e. killing) it is for murder. Can you point out to us where in early chapter 9 murder is mentioned? If you cant, then your point is disproved.

When it says those who wage war and spread fasad it never said that it did happen even though the Koran talks about many battles.

Yes, I am aware of this, and I am also aware of the passive tense in the verse, see M. Asad's notes. In fact, in addition to what Asad says, it seems if the punishments were taken literally, they would have to be captured first before administering them, but when war-participants are captured what is described in this verse is not talked about, as it only talks about ransom/exchange or release at the end of war. Thus, I think we can effectively say Asad's interpretation is the most likely.

Now, onto what it is talking about...

Fasad simply means corruption / make wrong (e.g. destruction, war-mongering, violence). If it is done on such a large scale that it affects a community/land/region/country/etc (and by default, that it causes physical harm) then it can be termed "fasad in the land", and is great enough to warrant execution, if proven.

As you previously mentioned and also in your post above, "God and His messenger" is a reference to God's system/message, thus anything done in opposition to this AND the perpetrator(s) strive for "fasad in the land"..... then the repercussions are as 532 and elsewhere.
If "war from God and His messenger" is used alone then it simply means concerted effort, fight (not necessarily physically).

The verses are very clear.

I repeat, your interpretation is weak unless you can provide further evidence. And by evidence, I mean something solid, not incorrect definitions and weak associations.

Bigmo

Bigmo,

The reason for not clearly stating my view was that I thought you would realise the answer yourself when your points were shown to be weak, especially so since you pretty much said what I think it is about, but even after our exchange so far you still persist in making incorrect claims such as "but its clear from the Koran that fasad is used for killing of civilians.". To put it bluntly, this is nonsense. Anyone can see this by looking up the occurrences in The Quran. No further comments from me on this aspect. You can believe what you wish.

Further, when I referenced the verses (95, 2190-194), you gave us some sort of strange interpretation saying it is about prisoners.

Let me clarify why the verses I pointed out to you are relevant. You said the only time The Quran talks about execution (i.e. killing) it is for murder. Can you point out to us where in early chapter 9 murder is mentioned? If you cant, then your point is disproved.

Yes, I am aware of this, and I am also aware of the passive tense in the verse, see M. Asad's notes. In fact, in addition to what Asad says, it seems if the punishments were taken literally, they would have to be captured first before administering them, but when war-participants are captured what is described in this verse is not talked about, as it only talks about ransom/exchange or release at the end of war. Thus, I think we can effectively say Asad's interpretation is the most likely.

Now, onto what it is talking about...

Fasad simply means corruption / make wrong (e.g. destruction, war-mongering, violence). If it is done on such a large scale that it affects a community/land/region/country/etc (and by default, that it causes physical harm) then it can be termed "fasad in the land", and is great enough to warrant execution, if proven.

As you previously mentioned and also in your post above, "God and His messenger" is a reference to God's system/message, thus anything done in opposition to this AND the perpetrator(s) strive for "fasad in the land"..... then the repercussions are as 532 and elsewhere.
If "war from God and His messenger" is used alone then it simply means concerted effort, fight (not necessarily physically).

The verses are very clear.

I repeat, your interpretation is weak unless you can provide further evidence. And by evidence, I mean something solid, not incorrect definitions and weak associations.

Well lets agree to disagree and I don't like vague wordings like . "destruction, war-mongering, violence" which is just a long way of saying murder but i see it as mudering innocents as what Moses said and also how the Pharoah behaved while you see it as battles between combatants which is a BIG difference. Anyways I am not a reformist like Mr Assad, I rely on the Koran to interpret the Koran

18.74. Then they proceeded until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"

2.30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrat

28.4. Truly Pharaoh elated himself in the land and broke up its people into sections, depressing a small group among them their sons he slew, but he kept alive their females for he was indeed a maker of mischief

So I see no reason to change that interpretation. As far as chapter 9 you asked what does murder has to do with it. This is qital, and qital is slaying and those who are captured are prisoners of war and the Koran talked about that subject so i see no reason to interpret it as having anything to do with battles being fought as everyside of a battle thinks he is doing right and the Koran did lay some strict guidelines as far as prisoners are concerned.

(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term for Allah loveth the righteous.
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

Thats prisoners of war and has nothing to do with verses in chapter 5 but you do not see it that way. I believe because of how you intepret "wage war against God and his messenger" and I have shown the Koran uses the same phrase with riba and it was not even talking about anything physical but you see it as battles being fought between two armies.

I see no similarities in our point of view even though you claim so, we differ in how we interpret "war against God and his messenger" as you see that as qital and you equate that with chapter 9 which means one thing only and that is you believe the verse is talking about prisoners of war. And I wonder what happened to verses about the prisoners of war in other parts of the Koran. Everyone can claim that someone is war mongering and spreading violence.

Anyways even if your definition of "destruction, war-mongering, violence" then the Koran anyways gave the option of execution or banishement from community so either way its still opens the door for abolishing the death penalty although i still see your connection to chapter 9 as a connection to prisoners of war who are accused of war mongering and causing violence, which basically is the definition of every battle on Earth.

I see this as going nowhere so lets agree to disagree.

Wakas

Bigmo,

Your tactic of referencing a few verses and implying this is what "fasad" means, and ignoring the rest, are not going to work with me. Nice try though.

As I said, anyone who wishes to see what fasad means, simply needs to look up the occurrences, e.g. from PRL

Fa-Sin-Dal = to become evil/corrupted, invalid, decomposed, bad/spoiled/tainted, wrong, vicious, make mischief or foul deal. fasad - corruption/violence.

fasada vb. (1)
perf. act. 2251, 2122, 2371

fasad n.m. 2205, 532, 533, 564, 873, 11116, 2877, 2883, 3041, 4026, 8912

afsada vb. (4)
perf. act. 2734
impf. act. 211, 227, 230, 2205, 756, 785, 7127, 1273, 1325, 1688, 174, 26152, 2748, 4722
pcple. act. 212, 260, 2220, 363, 564, 774, 786, 7103, 7142, 1040, 1081, 1091, 1185, 1894, 26183, 2714, 284, 2877, 2930, 2936, 3828

LL, V6, p 180, 181

This is what Bigmo says about my view

while you see it (fasad) as battles between combatants

Incorrect. I never said that
Wakas Fasad simply means corruption / make wrong (e.g. destruction, war-mongering, violence).

I have shown the Koran uses the same phrase with riba and it was not even talking about anything physical but you see it as battles being fought between two armies.

Incorrect. I never said that
Wakas If "war from God and His messenger" is used alone then it simply means concerted effort, fight (not necessarily physically).

we differ in how we interpret "war against God and his messenger" as you see that as qital and you equate that with chapter 9 which means one thing only and that is you believe the verse is talking about prisoners of war.

Incorrect. I never said that
Wakas As you previously mentioned and also in your post above, "God and His messenger" is a reference to God's system/message, thus anything done in opposition to this AND the perpetrator(s) strive for "fasad in the land"..... then the repercussions are as 532 and elsewhere.
If "war from God and His messenger" is used alone then it simply means concerted effort, fight (not necessarily physically).

As far as chapter 9 you asked what does murder has to do with it.

I never asked this. I asked you where is murder mentioned in it.

All of the above have one thing in common they are the result of your erroneous/false deductions, directly implying, either you cannot read properly or cannot think properly, or both.

I recommend
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
http//web.archive.org/web/20040415023848/http//www.santarosa.edu/~dpeterso/permanenthtml/lessonFRAME.html

Anyways I am not a reformist like Mr Assad

I agree. You are nothing like M. Asad.

i still see your connection to chapter 9 as a connection to prisoners of war who are accused of war mongering and causing violence, which basically is the definition of every battle on Earth.

You further confirm your erroneous thinking by telling us chapter 9 refers to prisoners! I suggest everyone read chapter 9, and they will see the level of your thinking.

Chapter 9

An acquittal/release from The God and His messenger to those with whom you made a treaty from among the polytheists.
Therefore, roam the earth (prisoners roaming the earth? are they on day release?) for four months and know that you will not escape The God, and that The God will disgrace the ungrateful/rejecters.
And an announcement from The God and His messenger to the people on the greatest/peak day of the conference/symposium "The God is quit/free from the polytheists and so is His messenger". If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape The God. And give news to those who conceal/reject of a painful retribution.
Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among the polytheists (making treaties with prisoners?) if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you (from jail?); you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
So when the restricted months are passed, then you may fight the polytheists wherever you find them (but aren't prisoners all in one place?), and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point (every point in jail? outside their cells?). If they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then clear/vacate their way/path. Truly, The God is Turning/Forgiving, Embracing/Merciful.
And if anyone from the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the word of The God, then deliver him to his safety/security. This is because they are a people who do not know.
How can those polytheists have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger, except for those with whom you made a pledge/agreement at the institute of acknowledging the restriction (is this jail in your interpretation?)? As long as they are straight with you, then you are straight with them. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
How is it when they gain the upper-hand (from their cells?) they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts are hostile, and most of them are wicked.
They purchased with The God's signs/revelations a small gain, so they could turn others from His path. Truly, evil is what they were doing.
They do not respect believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. These are the transgressors/wrongdoers.
But if they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers/allies in the obligation/system. We detail/explain our signs/revelations for a people who know.
And if they break their oaths after making them, and they assail (cause damage) in your obligation/system (from jail?); then you may fight the chiefs of ungratefulness/rejection (chief prisoners?). Truly, their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then stop. (stop what? fighting from prison?)

Only God knows how you came to your interpretations. As a sidenote, if anyone on the forum has any idea how Bigmo came to the deductions he has, please help him out and clarify for us.

Everyone can claim that someone is war mongering and spreading violence.

But can they prove it by way of evidence as per Quranic requirements?

I see this as going nowhere so lets agree to disagree.

I am innocent of what you serve, and you are innocent of what I serve. God knows best.

Bigmo

Bigmo,

Your tactic of referencing a few verses and implying this is what "fasad" means, and ignoring the rest, are not going to work with me. Nice try though.

As I said, anyone who wishes to see what fasad means, simply needs to look up the occurrences, e.g. from PRL

This is what Bigmo says about my view

Incorrect. I never said that
Wakas Fasad simply means corruption / make wrong (e.g. destruction, war-mongering, violence).

Incorrect. I never said that
Wakas If "war from God and His messenger" is used alone then it simply means concerted effort, fight (not necessarily physically).

Incorrect. I never said that
Wakas As you previously mentioned and also in your post above, "God and His messenger" is a reference to God's system/message, thus anything done in opposition to this AND the perpetrator(s) strive for "fasad in the land"..... then the repercussions are as 532 and elsewhere.
If "war from God and His messenger" is used alone then it simply means concerted effort, fight (not necessarily physically).

I never asked this. I asked you where is murder mentioned in it.

All of the above have one thing in common they are the result of your erroneous/false deductions, directly implying, either you cannot read properly or cannot think properly, or both.

I recommend
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
http//web.archive.org/web/20040415023848/http//www.santarosa.edu/~dpeterso/permanenthtml/lessonFRAME.html

I agree. You are nothing like M. Asad.

You further confirm your erroneous thinking by telling us chapter 9 refers to prisoners! I suggest everyone read chapter 9, and they will see the level of your thinking.

Only God knows how you came to your interpretations. As a sidenote, if anyone on the forum has any idea how Bigmo came to the deductions he has, please help him out and clarify for us.

But can they prove it by way of evidence as per Quranic requirements?

I am innocent of what you serve, and you are innocent of what I serve. God knows best.

I have no clue as to what you are saying. Anyways this is not about Bigmo versus Wakas, its about the Koran and the death penalty.

As far as chapter 9, its says from the begining of the chapter that there was treaty that was signed between Muhammad and the pagans of Mecca. This treaty was signed due to the battles fought between them and the previous exile Muhammad and his forces suffered and the treaty was signed to give Muhammad access to the pilgrimage to Mecca. The Koran have given us many examples of the battles between Muhammad and the pagans of Mecca So there is a background knowledge about these two parties we can deduce.

Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

You seem to look at those verses in isolation to the larger issue between the parties involved. All waring parties have ceasefire agreements with the stronger party usually violating those ceasefires whenever they thing they can make some quick gains. This happened between the North of Sudan and the South of Sudan a lot of times with the Southern rebel forces usually accusing Khartoum of violating the ceasfire agreement. Hamas and Israel also have occasional ceasefire agreements either to hold talks or to bring humanitarian aide or to allow civilians to pass through. In chapter 9 its talking about the pilgrimage to Mecca. So this treaty happened while hostilities was still going on and a ceasefire was made just to allow the pilgrimage to take place.

Yet in all these ceasfires I have mentioned, if hostilities continue despite the ceasefire agreement, the parties captured are always considered prisoners of war. Many ceasfire agreements were violated by fighting parties and this happens all the time. But in all the occassions I know, anyone captured during these situations, is still a prisoner of war and is treated as such. If there was ambushes and shady groups of people involved then this is usually dealt with according to the situation and does not affect the two main fighting parties agreements with each other. I don't see whats erroneous about this at all. And I have said maybe the Koran was refering to such groups of people. There are people who like to take advantage of such situations. I know from Sudan that many armed gangs and highway robbers find opportunities during times of conflict usually posing as government forces or rebel groups but are not affiliated with any of them. Mecca and the rest of the Arabian peninsula had no real central authority and the area was dominated by tribes so many things could have been going on. Plus this is not about Wakas versus Bigmo and who is smarter, its about the Koran and the death penalty and not the Koran and prisoners of war. None of this has any bearing on the topic this thread tried to address.

Whatever you understand about what the verse 533 is talking about, the Koran gave the option of execution or banishment from the community. So as far as the Koran and the death penalty, it does not change the fact that the Koran believes that whatever deserves the death penalty or crucifxion or mutilation it also accepts banishment from the community. Jail ,as I said, is a form of banishment or exile from a community. Given the nature of the wordings of the Koran in verse 533, it sems the Koran is talking about a long banishment from the community and not just a brief time. This is due to the nature of the crime the crime addresses. This as we know, is usually an option given by many societies for capital punishment where people can be saved from execution but usually end up staying many years behind bars and many times they stay behind bars for life.

The real difference between me and you therefore is not relevant regarding this topic. The real difference is what we consider could be punishable by death. I see that as killing of civilians as per my interpretation of the Koran, while I am still not sure what is yours. I see this as moving away from the death penalty versus imprisonment to the topiuc of prisoners of war or who deserves the death penalty in the first place which is not relevant for this thread.

I said before the koran did not come to design for us rituals or a legal framework and we would always have to make deductions from the Koran based on the guidelines the Koran allows us. Thats how I understand the Koran and I try to understand the Koran as a whole and not on bits and pieces and then I try to make deductions.

I reiterate, we will never be able to fully understand the verses in the Koran fully, especially regarding the events around Muhammad. Muhammad's biography is extremely complex, but we can make deductions based on the guidelines the koran allows us and we can also do the same regarding the other prophets in the Koran. The Koran, as I see it, gives us two ends of extremes where we can work within. But its only guidelines for us to work within them, and we humans have to make our own choices within those guidelines based on our circumstances and experiences.

But I believe the koran must be read as a whole and not on bits and pieces as this does not give us the broad range of issues regarding a topic.

TheNabi

Peace

Anyways we will look at what the Koran said regarding the punishment for murder

The punishment in the verse you mentioned is for those who wage war not for those who murder.

Joe

Bigmo

Peace

The punishment in the verse you mentioned is for those who wage war not for those who murder.

Joe

O you who believe! Be afraid of All?h and give up what remains from Rib? (usury) , if you are believers.
And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from All?h and His Messenger but if you repent, you shall have your capital sums. Deal not unjustly (by asking more than your capital sums), and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
And if the debtor is in a hard time , then grant him time till it is easy for him to repay, but if you remit it by way of charity, that is better for you if you did but know.

When we say war on poverty or a war on drugs we do not necessaril imply slaying, as the case with the term qital is used in the Koran regarding battles. So war is an all encompassing word. Plus your translation contradicts the teachings of the Koran in other parts when it deals with fighting as I have shown. In all cases the Koran considers those who are in battle with the prophet as prisoners and makes clear how they should be dealth with.

2.10-11 In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves). When it is said to them "Make not mischief on the earth," they say "Why, we only Want to make peace!"

2,60 And remember Moses prayed for water for his people; We said "Strike the rock with thy staff." Then gushed forth therefrom twelve springs. Each group knew its own place for water. So eat and drink of the sustenance provided by Allah. And do no evil nor mischief on the (face of the) earth.

7.85-86 To the Madyan people We sent Shu'aib, one of their own brethren he said "O my people! worship Allah; ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a Clear (Sign) from your Lord! give just measure and weight, nor withhold from the people the things that are their due; and do no mischief on the earth after it has been set in order that will be best for you, if ye have Faith "And squat not on every road, breathing threats, hindering from the path of Allah those who believe in Him, and seeking in it something crooked; But remember how ye were little, and He gave you increase. And hold in your mind's eye what was the end of those who did mischief.

11.84-86 To the Madyan People (We sent) Shu'aib, one of their own brethren he said "O my people! worship Allah. Ye have no other god but Him. And give not short measure or weight I see you in prosperity, but I fear for you the penalty of a day that will compass (you) all round. "And O my people! give just measure and weight, nor withhold from the people the things that are their due commit not evil in the land with intent to do mischief. "That which is left you by Allah is best for you, if ye (but) believed! but I am not set over you to keep watch!"

So mischief is many times the warnings of the prophets and so the Koran could have easily used war on Allah and His messenger to indicate opposition to the teachings of the Koran and the prophets and not actual physical battles. Mischief has been used in the Koran regarding a host of activities so we must deduce from other parts of the Koran what it means in verse 533.

2.30. Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrat

28.4. Truly Pharaoh elated himself in the land and broke up its people into sections, depressing a small group among them their sons he slew, but he kept alive their females for he was indeed a maker of mischief

Physical wars are fought by combatants and in this case the person involved is a prisoner. Imagine if the other side captures a follower of Muhammad, would they not be justified in executing them also if your interpretation is accurate. And who exactly are those mentioned in the Koran as prisoners of war then?

It does not add up.

Anyways whatever it is it does not matter since whatever society requires a death penalty for exile for community could also be applicable. But your interpretation goes against the verses of the Koran regarding battles fought between the prophet and the pagans and verses of the Koran regarding prisoners of war.

Rev_John

O you who believe! Be afraid of All?h and give up what remains from Rib? (usury) , if you are believers.
And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from All?h and His Messenger but if you repent, you shall have your capital sums. Deal not unjustly (by asking more than your capital sums), and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
And if the debtor is in a hard time , then grant him time till it is easy for him to repay, but if you remit it by way of charity, that is better for you if you did but know.