Isa ibn Maryam
-
You are so right. Jews can successfully refute the Quran by refuting the Messianship of Jesus and the Virgin Birth.
Actually the idea of Jewish Messiah is a myth and a misunderstanding of the Hebrew texts. The idea of an eschatological Messiah is a made up idea.
May God guides us to what is right.
I don't think it's a misunderstanding of the Hebrew texts, but it's a misuse of the text. In Judaism you have...
1st Authority of the patriarchs
2nd Institution of the priestly caste
3rd Innovation of the monarchy
4th The Hasmoneans/Hellenist empire
5th Expectation of a savior/messiah (which is a big mess of priestly/kingly qualities based on any verse of hyperbole or obscure prediction of the future)
The really weird thing is that in a plain reading of the Hebrew Bible, there IS a saviour but it's Elijah. Daniel talks about the Son of Man brought before God and then Malaki says Elijah will come before the end of the world to fix everything. The problem is no one can fake being Elijah whereas everybody can claim and has claimed to be Messiah. So Christians and Jews stuck Elijah in the backseat, and Muslims did the same thing to Jesus. Making him second fiddle to the Mahdi.
I'm THIS close to asking the Samaritans if I can hook up with them. As Abrahamic religion has evolved it's become more and more convoluted.
Since the subject of Jesus has come back up, isn't the compared blessing of the Family of Abraham and the Family of Imran disordinate and redundant? What was so great about Jesus's grandfather that he should be likened to Abraham, especially since he himself is descended from Abraham? It's funny that Christian polemists should focus so much on the argument of conflation and ignore that.
-
Yeah. The problem is that the Quran calls Jesus 'The Messiah'. Any serious reader of the Tanakh will say that this is a pure joke. It should have said that Jesus is a messiah 'anointed'. In this case, it will be more believable and less dramatic.
The name "Iashua" (Yod Shin Vav Ayin) is a common Jewish name 2000 years ago.
This has been supported by archeological findings of many tombs with Jesus(es) names imprinted near Jerusalem area.2000 years ago, asking "I'm looking for Iashua" to the people within Jerusalem / Canaan area is as silly as asking "I'm looking for Paul" in London or "I'm looking for Mori" in Tokyo today. You have to be more specific, which Iashua are you looking for?
Thus your answer is perhaps; I'm looking for Iashua Ha Mossiach (Jesus The Messiah) or Iashua Ha Nozirith (Jesus the Nazarenes / those who took the 'nazar' oath, easily recognizable through his long hair and beard) and not Iashua Ha Tzadik or Iashua Ha Dayag or Iashua Ben Simeon.
Ha Mossiach has became his 'nickname', thus Quran is not making any mistakes on referring to THAT Jesus as Jesus The Christ (Arabic Isa Al-Masih).
The nickname / title "Ha Mossiach" doesn't necessarily mean he is the ONLY Messiah.
In the Tanakh you can find a reference of a persian king named Cyrus being referred as "Ha Mossiach" as well...Salam / Peace
-
I don't think it's a misunderstanding of the Hebrew texts, but it's a misuse of the text. In Judaism you have...
1st Authority of the patriarchs
2nd Institution of the priestly caste
3rd Innovation of the monarchy
4th The Hasmoneans/Hellenist empire
5th Expectation of a savior/messiah (which is a big mess of priestly/kingly qualities based on any verse of hyperbole or obscure prediction of the future)
The really weird thing is that in a plain reading of the Hebrew Bible, there IS a saviour but it's Elijah. Daniel talks about the Son of Man brought before God and then Malaki says Elijah will come before the end of the world to fix everything. The problem is no one can fake being Elijah whereas everybody can claim and has claimed to be Messiah. So Christians and Jews stuck Elijah in the backseat, and Muslims did the same thing to Jesus. Making him second fiddle to the Mahdi.
I'm THIS close to asking the Samaritans if I can hook up with them. As Abrahamic religion has evolved it's become more and more convoluted.
Since the subject of Jesus has come back up, isn't the compared blessing of the Family of Abraham and the Family of Imran disordinate and redundant? What was so great about Jesus's grandfather that he should be likened to Abraham, especially since he himself is descended from Abraham? It's funny that Christian polemists should focus so much on the argument of conflation and ignore that.
The Messiah and the Messianic era are actually a misnomer. Yes there is an era where everything will be ok. But this figure is God Himself. NOT a Messiah and NOT Jesus.
I think the Messianic era which will last forever and where there is no war and death will be abolished is the Garden of Eden promised in the Quran.
And is yet to come.
When God and the Angels arrive.
-
The name "Iashua" (Yod Shin Vav Ayin) is a common Jewish name 2000 years ago.
This has been supported by archeological findings of many tombs with Jesus(es) names imprinted near Jerusalem area.2000 years ago, asking "I'm looking for Iashua" to the people within Jerusalem / Canaan area is as silly as asking "I'm looking for Paul" in London or "I'm looking for Mori" in Tokyo today. You have to be more specific, which Iashua are you looking for?
Thus your answer is perhaps; I'm looking for Iashua Ha Mossiach (Jesus The Messiah) or Iashua Ha Nozirith (Jesus the Nazarenes / those who took the 'nazar' oath, easily recognizable through his long hair and beard) and not Iashua Ha Tzadik or Iashua Ha Dayag or Iashua Ben Simeon.
Ha Mossiach has became his 'nickname', thus Quran is not making any mistakes on referring to THAT Jesus as Jesus The Christ (Arabic Isa Al-Masih).
The nickname / title "Ha Mossiach" doesn't necessarily mean he is the ONLY Messiah.
In the Tanakh you can find a reference of a persian king named Cyrus being referred as "Ha Mossiach" as well...Salam / Peace
Yeah so Jesus is not the only Messiah and not the eschatological Messiah that Rabbinic Judaism awaits. Good work.
The eschatological 'Messiah' is GOD HIMSELF during J-Day.
-
The Messiah and the Messianic era are actually a misnomer. Yes there is an era where everything will be ok. But this figure is God Himself. NOT a Messiah and NOT Jesus.
I think the Messianic era which will last forever and where there is no war and death will be abolished is the Garden of Eden promised in the Quran.
And is yet to come.
When God and the Angels arrive.
There is one God and one God only. Calling someone a Messiah is not calling them God and, as you say, Jesus was not the only one called "Messiah".
-
Who saved Israel from Egypt?
GOD.
Who will save Israel during the Messianic era?
GOD.
No humans involved.
Prophets were longing that God saves Israel again from oppression they got like He did in Egypt.
This what we refer to as J-day where God will save the believers once and for all and pass the final judgement on all the false gods human worshipped throughout history and all their followers.
-
^I LOVE your new avatar 100x more
yes
-
http//laughoutloud.us/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/this-is-sparta-caution-cone.jpg
rotfl rotfl
-M
rotfl yay yay
-
The Messiah and the Messianic era are actually a misnomer. Yes there is an era where everything will be ok. But this figure is God Himself. NOT a Messiah and NOT Jesus.
I think the Messianic era which will last forever and where there is no war and death will be abolished is the Garden of Eden promised in the Quran.
And is yet to come.
When God and the Angels arrive.
I agree. But I don't think that arose from a misunderstanding of the Bible. But rather wishful thinking, natural predilection, or borrowing from other religions.
This still makes the fact that the Quran refers to Jesus as Messiah all the more troublesome. It may be a general term in the Bible, but it's only used for Jesus in the Quran. Might be that it's just taking the title of praise for granted. A historical detail without the theological connotations...
SPARTA!
-
http//laughoutloud.us/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/this-is-sparta-caution-cone.jpg
rotfl rotfl
-M
rotfl Leonidas up ahead!
I agree. But I don't think that arose from a misunderstanding of the Bible. But rather wishful thinking, natural predilection, or borrowing from other religions.
This still makes the fact that the Quran refers to Jesus as Messiah all the more troublesome. It may be a general term in the Bible, but it's only used for Jesus in the Quran. Might be that it's just taking the title of praise for granted. A historical detail without the theological connotations...
SPARTA!
Yeah I have no idea whats going on anymore... )
SPARTAAAAAA!
-
Peace,
There is no virgin birth mentioned in the Qur'aan, this is a Christian myth developed from pagan gods of ancient times... Regarding the death of Jesus, it simply says that it APPEARED to the people that they killed Jesus. Therefore, they probably thought he was dead when he was actually still alive. The idea of the people torturing a lifeless body is not probably at all, since the account involves him standing before judges and even speaking while on the cross. So, he was obviously still alive during this portion... Personally, for now, I believe the Ahmadiyya account of Jesus' death that he was tortured on the cross and the people believed him to be dead, but he was actually still alive. Later, some of his followers, including his mother, patched him up and he travelled to India seeking out the "Lost Tribes of Israel", to complete his mission from God. He eventually died and was buried in Kashmir...
http//www.alislam.org/library/dcross.html
http//www.alislam.org/library/jesusinkashmir.htmlPeace,
Ahmad
-
Peace,
There is no virgin birth mentioned in the Qur'aan, this is a Christian myth developed from pagan gods of ancient times... Regarding the death of Jesus, it simply says that it APPEARED to the people that they killed Jesus. Therefore, they probably thought he was dead when he was actually still alive. The idea of the people torturing a lifeless body is not probably at all, since the account involves him standing before judges and even speaking while on the cross. So, he was obviously still alive during this portion... Personally, for now, I believe the Ahmadiyya account of Jesus' death that he was tortured on the cross and the people believed him to be dead, but he was actually still alive. Later, some of his followers, including his mother, patched him up and he travelled to India seeking out the "Lost Tribes of Israel", to complete his mission from God. He eventually died and was buried in Kashmir...
http//www.alislam.org/library/dcross.html
http//www.alislam.org/library/jesusinkashmir.htmlPeace,
Ahmad
Doesn't the Quran give an account of the virgin birth quoting Mary saying "how can that be as I have not been touched b y a man"?
-
Peace,
There is no virgin birth mentioned in the Qur'aan, this is a Christian myth developed from pagan gods of ancient times... Regarding the death of Jesus, it simply says that it APPEARED to the people that they killed Jesus. Therefore, they probably thought he was dead when he was actually still alive. The idea of the people torturing a lifeless body is not probably at all, since the account involves him standing before judges and even speaking while on the cross. So, he was obviously still alive during this portion... Personally, for now, I believe the Ahmadiyya account of Jesus' death that he was tortured on the cross and the people believed him to be dead, but he was actually still alive. Later, some of his followers, including his mother, patched him up and he travelled to India seeking out the "Lost Tribes of Israel", to complete his mission from God. He eventually died and was buried in Kashmir...
http//www.alislam.org/library/dcross.html
http//www.alislam.org/library/jesusinkashmir.htmlPeace,
Ahmad
Ahmed Mirza was a false messenger and his story off Jesus is nothing but tempt extracted from the history of Afghans. ???
And when I inspired the disciples to believe in Me and My messenger, so they said, ?We believe, and bear witness that we are Muslims (in submission to God).?? (Quran 5111)
Then when Jesus felt their (persistence in) disbelief, he said, ?Who will champion with me God?s (cause)?? The disciples said, ?We are the champions (of the cause) of God. We believe in God, and be a witness that we are Muslims (submitting to Him). Our Lord, we have believed in what You have revealed, and we have followed the messenger, so write us down among the witnesses (to the truth).? And they (who disbelieved) plotted, and God planned. And God is the best of the planners. When God said, ?O Jesus, I will take you and raise you to Me and clear you of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will all return to me, and I will judge between you in the matters you used to disagree in.?? (Quran 352-55)
?O you who believe, champion God?s (religion), like when Jesus son of Mary said to the disciples, ?Who will champion God?s (religion) with me?? The disciples said, ?We are the champions of God?s (religion).? Then a group of the Children of Israel believed and a group disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became victorious.? (Quran 6114)
?(And) when the disciples said, ?O Jesus, son of Mary, will your Lord send down to us a table spread (with food) from heaven?? He said, ?Fear God, if you are indeed believers.? They said, ?We wish to eat from it and have our hearts be reassured, and to know that you have indeed told us the truth and that we be witnesses to it.? Jesus the son of Mary said, ?O God, our Lord, send us from heaven a table spread (with food) to be for us a festival for the first of us and the last of us and a sign from You. And provide for us, You are the Best of providers.? God said, ?I am going to send it down to you, but if any of you after that disbelieves, then I will punish him with a punishment such as I will not put on anyone else.?? (Quran 5112-115)And for of their saying, ?We have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of God.? But they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it was made to look like him to them. And those who disagree over him are in doubt (of killing) him, they have no knowledge of it except the following of guesswork, and they did not kill him for certain. But God raised him up to Himself. And God is All-?Powerful, All-?Wise.? (Quran 4157-15
When God will say,? O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit (Gabriel) and you spoke to people in the cradle and in old age; and when I taught you the Book, wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel; and when you made out of clay the likeness of a bird, by My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leper by My permission, and when you brought the dead to life by My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from (killing) you when you came to them with clear proofs, but the disbelievers among them said, ?This is nothing but plain magic.?? (Quran 5110)?And We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, And We gave them refuge and rest on a high ground with flowing water.? (Quran 2350)
peace
-
I agree with the post about the virgin birth. In the hebrew, almah means 'young woman' if they meant virgin they would have used bethulah. This should clear the matter, but christians are very persistent on using the greek translation of the hebrew instead of the original hebrew lol.
I have often said, do not study any religion too closely or you may turn into an atheist. I have been a comparative religion teacher and lecturer for some ten years now (really been that long? bah.. lol) and there were times when I just found atheism to be the much clearer path, yet I was gloomily depressed at the lack of an almighty creator (the security blanket argument atheists use as it were).
I still battle with the question of evil (theodicy). If God is all knowing, then he is responsible ( as in he could have intervened, if only for the little ones. ) for allowing all these atrocities to happen or for the drowning of infants in their cribs (as in the case of Katrina in New Orleans, LA a few years back in the states. Many people drowned, eldery and infant.)
I was appalled when I read the hadiths and stories of the Sahaba.. there was a case where a mother was an attendant to Pharaoh's daughter, and when she refused to acknowledge him as God, as she only prayed to Allah, Pharaoh had all her children boiled in oil and Allah had her infant speak up "Mom, do not stop now.. you are close to Jannah." and she let Pharaoh boil her infant then herself. Even typing it leaves a distaste, where infant death is celebrated.
Of course, the Old Testament is not much better..There is a story in it of when the israelites slew a mass of people, retaining the virgins for themself and giving God a portion ( of course, the more seedy part is how they tested for virginity.. I will spare that here.)
Ah well, before I write another book in a post here, I will wrap it up.
-
The way God acts has alot to do with purpose.
If there is no eternal afterlife, so this life is meaningless and should be terminated before it even began.
If God spoke to us directly, then everyone will believe.
If God didn't punish the first generations, no one would have believed.
If God kept punishing, everyone would have believed.
If God intervened to save the children, everyone would have believed.
If everyone believed, there is no point in life.
If everyone disbelieved, there is still no point in life.
If God talked and walked with us, there is no point in death.
The only way to create something without considering it playing is to keep it forever.
Thats why the Angels never die. And Adam would have served God in the Garden of Eden forever if he hadn't eaten from the tree.
And even the criminals won't die in the Fire. They will stay there. Because if they did die, then God was playing with them.
Eternity makes everything count and creates absolute purpose.
Thats why I believe in the Quran.