Isa ibn Maryam
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^I LOVE your new avatar 100x more
yes
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rotfl rotfl
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rotfl yay yay
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The Messiah and the Messianic era are actually a misnomer. Yes there is an era where everything will be ok. But this figure is God Himself. NOT a Messiah and NOT Jesus.
I think the Messianic era which will last forever and where there is no war and death will be abolished is the Garden of Eden promised in the Quran.
And is yet to come.
When God and the Angels arrive.
I agree. But I don't think that arose from a misunderstanding of the Bible. But rather wishful thinking, natural predilection, or borrowing from other religions.
This still makes the fact that the Quran refers to Jesus as Messiah all the more troublesome. It may be a general term in the Bible, but it's only used for Jesus in the Quran. Might be that it's just taking the title of praise for granted. A historical detail without the theological connotations...
SPARTA!
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rotfl rotfl
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rotfl Leonidas up ahead!
I agree. But I don't think that arose from a misunderstanding of the Bible. But rather wishful thinking, natural predilection, or borrowing from other religions.
This still makes the fact that the Quran refers to Jesus as Messiah all the more troublesome. It may be a general term in the Bible, but it's only used for Jesus in the Quran. Might be that it's just taking the title of praise for granted. A historical detail without the theological connotations...
SPARTA!
Yeah I have no idea whats going on anymore... )
SPARTAAAAAA!
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Peace,
There is no virgin birth mentioned in the Qur'aan, this is a Christian myth developed from pagan gods of ancient times... Regarding the death of Jesus, it simply says that it APPEARED to the people that they killed Jesus. Therefore, they probably thought he was dead when he was actually still alive. The idea of the people torturing a lifeless body is not probably at all, since the account involves him standing before judges and even speaking while on the cross. So, he was obviously still alive during this portion... Personally, for now, I believe the Ahmadiyya account of Jesus' death that he was tortured on the cross and the people believed him to be dead, but he was actually still alive. Later, some of his followers, including his mother, patched him up and he travelled to India seeking out the "Lost Tribes of Israel", to complete his mission from God. He eventually died and was buried in Kashmir...
http//www.alislam.org/library/dcross.html
http//www.alislam.org/library/jesusinkashmir.htmlPeace,
Ahmad
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Peace,
There is no virgin birth mentioned in the Qur'aan, this is a Christian myth developed from pagan gods of ancient times... Regarding the death of Jesus, it simply says that it APPEARED to the people that they killed Jesus. Therefore, they probably thought he was dead when he was actually still alive. The idea of the people torturing a lifeless body is not probably at all, since the account involves him standing before judges and even speaking while on the cross. So, he was obviously still alive during this portion... Personally, for now, I believe the Ahmadiyya account of Jesus' death that he was tortured on the cross and the people believed him to be dead, but he was actually still alive. Later, some of his followers, including his mother, patched him up and he travelled to India seeking out the "Lost Tribes of Israel", to complete his mission from God. He eventually died and was buried in Kashmir...
http//www.alislam.org/library/dcross.html
http//www.alislam.org/library/jesusinkashmir.htmlPeace,
Ahmad
Doesn't the Quran give an account of the virgin birth quoting Mary saying "how can that be as I have not been touched b y a man"?
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Peace,
There is no virgin birth mentioned in the Qur'aan, this is a Christian myth developed from pagan gods of ancient times... Regarding the death of Jesus, it simply says that it APPEARED to the people that they killed Jesus. Therefore, they probably thought he was dead when he was actually still alive. The idea of the people torturing a lifeless body is not probably at all, since the account involves him standing before judges and even speaking while on the cross. So, he was obviously still alive during this portion... Personally, for now, I believe the Ahmadiyya account of Jesus' death that he was tortured on the cross and the people believed him to be dead, but he was actually still alive. Later, some of his followers, including his mother, patched him up and he travelled to India seeking out the "Lost Tribes of Israel", to complete his mission from God. He eventually died and was buried in Kashmir...
http//www.alislam.org/library/dcross.html
http//www.alislam.org/library/jesusinkashmir.htmlPeace,
Ahmad
Ahmed Mirza was a false messenger and his story off Jesus is nothing but tempt extracted from the history of Afghans. ???
And when I inspired the disciples to believe in Me and My messenger, so they said, ?We believe, and bear witness that we are Muslims (in submission to God).?? (Quran 5111)
Then when Jesus felt their (persistence in) disbelief, he said, ?Who will champion with me God?s (cause)?? The disciples said, ?We are the champions (of the cause) of God. We believe in God, and be a witness that we are Muslims (submitting to Him). Our Lord, we have believed in what You have revealed, and we have followed the messenger, so write us down among the witnesses (to the truth).? And they (who disbelieved) plotted, and God planned. And God is the best of the planners. When God said, ?O Jesus, I will take you and raise you to Me and clear you of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieve till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will all return to me, and I will judge between you in the matters you used to disagree in.?? (Quran 352-55)
?O you who believe, champion God?s (religion), like when Jesus son of Mary said to the disciples, ?Who will champion God?s (religion) with me?? The disciples said, ?We are the champions of God?s (religion).? Then a group of the Children of Israel believed and a group disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became victorious.? (Quran 6114)
?(And) when the disciples said, ?O Jesus, son of Mary, will your Lord send down to us a table spread (with food) from heaven?? He said, ?Fear God, if you are indeed believers.? They said, ?We wish to eat from it and have our hearts be reassured, and to know that you have indeed told us the truth and that we be witnesses to it.? Jesus the son of Mary said, ?O God, our Lord, send us from heaven a table spread (with food) to be for us a festival for the first of us and the last of us and a sign from You. And provide for us, You are the Best of providers.? God said, ?I am going to send it down to you, but if any of you after that disbelieves, then I will punish him with a punishment such as I will not put on anyone else.?? (Quran 5112-115)And for of their saying, ?We have killed the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the messenger of God.? But they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it was made to look like him to them. And those who disagree over him are in doubt (of killing) him, they have no knowledge of it except the following of guesswork, and they did not kill him for certain. But God raised him up to Himself. And God is All-?Powerful, All-?Wise.? (Quran 4157-15
When God will say,? O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit (Gabriel) and you spoke to people in the cradle and in old age; and when I taught you the Book, wisdom, the Torah and the Gospel; and when you made out of clay the likeness of a bird, by My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leper by My permission, and when you brought the dead to life by My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from (killing) you when you came to them with clear proofs, but the disbelievers among them said, ?This is nothing but plain magic.?? (Quran 5110)?And We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, And We gave them refuge and rest on a high ground with flowing water.? (Quran 2350)
peace
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I agree with the post about the virgin birth. In the hebrew, almah means 'young woman' if they meant virgin they would have used bethulah. This should clear the matter, but christians are very persistent on using the greek translation of the hebrew instead of the original hebrew lol.
I have often said, do not study any religion too closely or you may turn into an atheist. I have been a comparative religion teacher and lecturer for some ten years now (really been that long? bah.. lol) and there were times when I just found atheism to be the much clearer path, yet I was gloomily depressed at the lack of an almighty creator (the security blanket argument atheists use as it were).
I still battle with the question of evil (theodicy). If God is all knowing, then he is responsible ( as in he could have intervened, if only for the little ones. ) for allowing all these atrocities to happen or for the drowning of infants in their cribs (as in the case of Katrina in New Orleans, LA a few years back in the states. Many people drowned, eldery and infant.)
I was appalled when I read the hadiths and stories of the Sahaba.. there was a case where a mother was an attendant to Pharaoh's daughter, and when she refused to acknowledge him as God, as she only prayed to Allah, Pharaoh had all her children boiled in oil and Allah had her infant speak up "Mom, do not stop now.. you are close to Jannah." and she let Pharaoh boil her infant then herself. Even typing it leaves a distaste, where infant death is celebrated.
Of course, the Old Testament is not much better..There is a story in it of when the israelites slew a mass of people, retaining the virgins for themself and giving God a portion ( of course, the more seedy part is how they tested for virginity.. I will spare that here.)
Ah well, before I write another book in a post here, I will wrap it up.
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The way God acts has alot to do with purpose.
If there is no eternal afterlife, so this life is meaningless and should be terminated before it even began.
If God spoke to us directly, then everyone will believe.
If God didn't punish the first generations, no one would have believed.
If God kept punishing, everyone would have believed.
If God intervened to save the children, everyone would have believed.
If everyone believed, there is no point in life.
If everyone disbelieved, there is still no point in life.
If God talked and walked with us, there is no point in death.
The only way to create something without considering it playing is to keep it forever.
Thats why the Angels never die. And Adam would have served God in the Garden of Eden forever if he hadn't eaten from the tree.
And even the criminals won't die in the Fire. They will stay there. Because if they did die, then God was playing with them.
Eternity makes everything count and creates absolute purpose.
Thats why I believe in the Quran.
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I do not consider it 'playing' when children at this moment are dying in Africa because of starvation, nor playing when those infants drowned in the event I spoke of in New Orleans.
This is the sort of thing that drives people away from faith. Sure, the survivors say it was God's grace.. but why was it easy for God to save them and not everyone?
I appreciate your post as it was a statement of opinions. Yet, it does little for me personally in explaination on theodicy and that is ok too.
I will not take all your points in response, but the three that I did zero in on as it were
If everyone believed, there is no point in life.
According to the Old Testament and both Jewish and Christian belief systems, God was walking in the Garden and spoke directly with Adam. Since only Adam and Eve existed, and they believed and saw God as real as I see your avatar.. then they constituted everyone. So, was there no point in their creation by your logic?
You may, if you like, execute a flourish of points about how Islam is not Jewish or Christian lore.. Or about the talking snake and the fruit.. Yet, I would respect and admire you more if you took my point as it stands. )
If everyone disbelieved, there is still no point in life.
Refer to the first point.
If God talked and walked with us, there is no point in death.
Refer to the first point.
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Doesn't the Quran give an account of the virgin birth quoting Mary saying "how can that be as I have not been touched b y a man"?
No, not at all. Rather, this simply says that Maryam hadn't been touched by a man by the time the angelic messenger came and spoke to her. It doesn't mean that she didn't have intercourse with a man after this incident... The angel says that it is "easy" for God to do these things. This doesn't mean that Jesus was shaped directly by God; it means that God is capable of governing things. In Maryam's position, based on the Jewish tradition for the Levite children (sons and daughters of Aaron), she was forbidden from intermixing with the members of other tribes, one of whom was Joseph, who became her husband. God made Maryam a "aya"/sign to the Jews that many of their traditions were NOT in harmony with His commandments in the Torah, which is also a message that Jesus preached to the Pharisees... There's nothing in the Qur'aan that alleges that Maryam was a 'virgin' when she gave birth to Jesus...
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Ahmed Mirza was a false messenger and his story off Jesus is nothing but tempt extracted from the history of Afghans. ???
Perhaps this is true... However, this still doesn't make the story untrue. It makes much more sense than the traditional Islaamic and Christian interpretations. And based on the scriptures, it is very likely that Ahmad Mirza's view was correct...
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No, not at all. Rather, this simply says that Maryam hadn't been touched by a man by the time the angelic messenger came and spoke to her. It doesn't mean that she didn't have intercourse with a man after this incident... The angel says that it is "easy" for God to do these things. This doesn't mean that Jesus was shaped directly by God; it means that God is capable of governing things. In Maryam's position, based on the Jewish tradition for the Levite children (sons and daughters of Aaron), she was forbidden from intermixing with the members of other tribes, one of whom was Joseph, who became her husband. God made Maryam a "aya"/sign to the Jews that many of their traditions were NOT in harmony with His commandments in the Torah, which is also a message that Jesus preached to the Pharisees... There's nothing in the Qur'aan that alleges that Maryam was a 'virgin' when she gave birth to Jesus...
Yes, it does say that doesn't it. Thank you, that helps me with my church.
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197 "O Zachariah, We give you glad tidings of a son whose name is John. We have not given that name before to anyone."
198 He said, "My Lord, how can I have a son when my wife is infertile, and I have reached a very old age?"
198 He said, "My Lord, how can I have a son when my wife is infertile, and I have reached a very old age?"
199 He said, "It is such that your Lord has said. It is an easy thing for Me. I had created you before when you were not even anything."
1910 He said, "My Lord, make for me a sign." He said, "Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively."
1911 So he went out amongst his people from the temple enclosure, and he indicated to them that they should glorify Him at dawn and dusk.
1912 "O John, take the book with confidence." We gave him authority while in his youth.
1913 He had kindness from Us and purity, and he was ever righteous.
1914 Dutiful to his parents, and never was he a tyrant or disobedient.
1915 Peace be upon him the day he was born, and the day he dies, and the day he is resurrected alive.
1916 Relate in the book Mary, when she withdrew herself from her family to a place which was to the east.
1917 She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human in all similarity.
1918 She said, "I seek refuge with the Gracious from you if you are a person of acknowledgment."
1919 He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, that He may grant you the gift of a pure son."
1920 She said, "How can I have a son when no human has touched me, nor do I desire such?"
1921 He said, "It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained."
1922 So she was pregnant with him, and she went to deliver in a far place.
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1927 Then she came to her people carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have come with something totally unexpected!"
1928 "O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!"
1929 So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk to someone who is a child in a cradle?"
1930 He said, "I am God's servant, He has given me the book and made me a prophet."
Jesus had a mircaulous birth, as evidenced by the above verses.
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1919 He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, that He may grant you the gift of a pure son."
1920 She said, "How can I have a son when no human has touched me, nor do I desire such?"
1921 He said, "It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained."
Jesus had a mircaulous birth, as evidenced by the above verses.
C'mon, Progressive, you've gotta do better than this... nope These passages aren't even translated correctly; in fact, they were probably DELIBERATELY MISTRANSLATED to fit with a preconceived notion. Here are some examples, just for reference...
(1) First of all, 1919 doesn't say that God would grant Maryam the gift, it says the angel came to do it. You added words in the passage to tie into your notions...
(2) 1920 does NOT say that 'she didn't desire such'. That's an outright fabrication! The passage plainly says "wa'alam aku baghiyyaan", or "and I was not a prostitute/harlot/fornicator". It doesn't say anything about her desiring anything.
(3) The passage in 1921 says that the child would be a sign TO THE PEOPLE. How would he serve as a sign to the people by being born of a virgin? Nobody could verify that he was born of a virgin, since they weren't present during his conception. So, obviously this verse is talking about something else.
1927 Then she came to her people carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have come with something totally unexpected!"
Another mistranslation... This actually says that Maryam came with something "confusing". This is because her action (marrying Joseph) was against the Levite tradition. Her family members were confused by this action, which is why they questioned her.
1928 "O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!"
Tell me, what was the significance of them referring to her as the "sister of Aaron" in this passage? Why does it make a difference? The answer is BECAUSE SHE VIOLATED THEIR TRADITION. She married somebody outside of this bloodline, and it confused her people. That's why they called her this...
Jesus' birth was only miraculous because it was pre-announced. Other than that, he was born the same way all other children of Adam were born...
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(1) First of all, 1919 doesn't say that God would grant Maryam the gift, it says the angel came to do it. You added words in the passage to tie into your notions...
1919 He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, that He may grant you the gift of a pure son." (QRT)
1919 He said "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you the gift of a pure son." (FM - old)
1919 answered "I' am but a messenger of thy Sustainer, `I shall bestow upon thee the gift of a son endowed with purity.'" (M. Asad)
1919 He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son." (Rashad Khalifa)
1919 He said I am only a messenger of your Lord who says, "I shall bestow upon you the gift of a son endowed with a spotless character." (QXP)
(2) 1920 does NOT say that 'she didn't desire such'. That's an outright fabrication! The passage plainly says "wa'alam aku baghiyyaan", or "and I was not a prostitute/harlot/fornicator". It doesn't say anything about her desiring anything.
Agreed. handshake
1920 She said, "How can I have a son when no man has ever (intimately) touched me? For, never have I been a loose woman!"
(3) The passage in 1921 says that the child would be a sign TO THE PEOPLE. How would he serve as a sign to the people by being born of a virgin? Nobody could verify that he was born of a virgin, since they weren't present during his conception. So, obviously this verse is talking about something else.
What is "something else"?
Another mistranslation... This actually says that Maryam came with something "confusing". This is because her action (marrying Joseph) was against the Levite tradition. Her family members were confused by this action, which is why they questioned her.
The translation I've looked up say either "amazing thing" or "something totally unexpected".
Tell me, what was the significance of them referring to her as the "sister of Aaron" in this passage? Why does it make a difference? The answer is BECAUSE SHE VIOLATED THEIR TRADITION. She married somebody outside of this bloodline, and it confused her people. That's why they called her this...
Jesus' birth was only miraculous because it was pre-announced. Other than that, he was born the same way all other children of Adam were born...
If you want to go by this - fine...
Peace