Isa ibn Maryam
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(1) First of all, 1919 doesn't say that God would grant Maryam the gift, it says the angel came to do it. You added words in the passage to tie into your notions...
1919 He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, that He may grant you the gift of a pure son." (QRT)
1919 He said "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you the gift of a pure son." (FM - old)
1919 answered "I' am but a messenger of thy Sustainer, `I shall bestow upon thee the gift of a son endowed with purity.'" (M. Asad)
1919 He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son." (Rashad Khalifa)
1919 He said I am only a messenger of your Lord who says, "I shall bestow upon you the gift of a son endowed with a spotless character." (QXP)
(2) 1920 does NOT say that 'she didn't desire such'. That's an outright fabrication! The passage plainly says "wa'alam aku baghiyyaan", or "and I was not a prostitute/harlot/fornicator". It doesn't say anything about her desiring anything.
Agreed. handshake
1920 She said, "How can I have a son when no man has ever (intimately) touched me? For, never have I been a loose woman!"
(3) The passage in 1921 says that the child would be a sign TO THE PEOPLE. How would he serve as a sign to the people by being born of a virgin? Nobody could verify that he was born of a virgin, since they weren't present during his conception. So, obviously this verse is talking about something else.
What is "something else"?
Another mistranslation... This actually says that Maryam came with something "confusing". This is because her action (marrying Joseph) was against the Levite tradition. Her family members were confused by this action, which is why they questioned her.
The translation I've looked up say either "amazing thing" or "something totally unexpected".
Tell me, what was the significance of them referring to her as the "sister of Aaron" in this passage? Why does it make a difference? The answer is BECAUSE SHE VIOLATED THEIR TRADITION. She married somebody outside of this bloodline, and it confused her people. That's why they called her this...
Jesus' birth was only miraculous because it was pre-announced. Other than that, he was born the same way all other children of Adam were born...
If you want to go by this - fine...
Peace
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Peace Ahmad
Adding to my last post
Jesus and Adam are mentioned the same number of times - 27. (Maybe it is because they have been both created miraculously - hint hint).
6612 Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into her from Our Spirit, and she acknowledged the words of her Lord and His books; and she was of those who were obedient.
Also, I am sure that the thing you called "a sign" is not the (only) sign
5110 God said, "O Jesus son of Mary, recall My blessings upon you and your mother that I supported you with the Holy Spirit; you spoke to the people in the cradle and in old age; and I taught you the book and the wisdom, and the Torah, and the Injeel; and you would create from clay the shape of a bird, then blow into it and it becomes a bird by My leave; and you heal the blind and the leper by My leave; and you brought out the dead by My leave. I have restrained the Children of Israel from you, that you came to them with proofs; but those who rejected amongst them said, "This is an obvious magic!""
Please also show me where in the there is an alleged father of Jesus spoken of in the Quran. Tell me where it talks about a normal birth of Jesus.
Peacee
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Peace Progressive,
The Qur'aan refers to Jesus' father. In 684-86, it gives a list of a group of prophets, 18 of them total. Then, at the end of this list, it says this
And from among their fathers and their descendants and their brethren. And We chose them and We guided them towards the Right Path. (687)
It clearly says "... Wa min aaba ihim...", which literally means 'and from their fathers'. Since Jesus is mentioned in this list, it's talking about his father too... On top of this, there are other prophets mentioned in the scriptures who's fathers aren't mentioned (i.e. Noah, Job, David, Moses, Aaron, Zechariah, all of who's names are also mentioned in this list), yet nobody questions the concept of them actually having fathers. You only question the concept of Jesus having a father because Christianity taught you that Jesus DIDN'T have a father... And if Jesus actually didn't have a father, then why would God include him in this list?
Also, the Qur'aan says
The example of Jesus, as far as God is concerned, is the same as that of Adam He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was. (359)
By reading through the entire passage, it becomes clear that, in this case, Adam is being referred to as the entire human race, not just the one person Adam. This is used as an argument against the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, showing that Jesus is completely human, just like all other humans. This is confirmed in other passages as well, where God says that He created ALL HUMANS from dust, not just Adam (i.e. 1837; 225; 3020; 3511; 4067). So, the passage in 359 is emphasizing that Jesus was made just like the rest of humanity, and this is through normal pregnancy procedures. The Qur'aan never says anything about a "miraculous birth" of Jesus at all, and Maryam is never called a "virgin" in the scripture at all. This concept is a fabrication, adapted from the Christian viewpoint, which was originally adapted from the pagan belief systems of ancient times...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Also, the Qur'aan says
The example of Jesus, as far as God is concerned, is the same as that of Adam He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was. (359)
By reading through the entire passage, it becomes clear that, in this case, Adam is being referred to as the entire human race, not just the one person Adam. This is used as an argument against the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, showing that Jesus is completely human, just like all other humans. This is confirmed in other passages as well, where God says that He created ALL HUMANS from dust, not just Adam (i.e. 1837; 225; 3020; 3511; 4067). So, the passage in 359 is emphasizing that Jesus was made just like the rest of humanity, and this is through normal pregnancy procedures. The Qur'aan never says anything about a "miraculous birth" of Jesus at all, and Maryam is never called a "virgin" in the scripture at all. This concept is a fabrication, adapted from the Christian viewpoint, which was originally adapted from the pagan belief systems of ancient times...
I dont agree with your interpretation. Adam AND Jesus are mentioned 27 times each in the Quran. It was because they both had miraculous creations. I think we differ here and dont think it's worth discussing. From the verses in chapter 19 I can conclde that Jesus did have a miraculous birth without male intervention.
Peace
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The thing is, just because the authors of the New Testament tried to justify the scandalous birth of Jesus by misquoting the Hebrew Bible doesn't mean there wasn't a scandal at all.
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The Ahmadiya account is bogus in my opinion. The only reason they even make the argument is to try to make Jesus more human because their 'Jesus no. 2' died of diarrhea. They're no different than Mormons who claim Jerusalem is in Utah and that Jesus came to the US and that they're a lost tribe of Israel.
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The Quranic account of Jesus' 'death' could easily be harmonized with the tradition Christian account (with the possible exception of the Gospel of John where Jesus actually has hole marks in his hands).
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My own personal view is that Jesus DID die by crucifixion, and that the story should be read in light of 2154 "And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not."
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Sparta!
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Peace Progressive,
I dont agree with your interpretation. Adam AND Jesus are mentioned 27 times each in the Quran. It was because they both had miraculous creations.
I don't really understand the significance of this. A lot of other things are also mentioned "27" times in the Qur'aan, and it doesn't mean they have anything to do with Adam or Jesus... Also, the creation of Adam and the birth of Jesus were totally different, to say the least. First of all, Adam didn't have a mother or a father; he was shaped directly by God. This wasn't the case with Jesus, who was actually born to human parents, or at least a human parent. Secondly, Adam's creation spawned the birth of the rest of humanity; this doesn't have anything in comparison to Jesus, who, according to the Biblical account, had no children. Thirdly, nothing in the scriptures suggests that Adam's creation was a sign for anyone, since nobody visibly saw God shape him; it's strictly hearsay turned into belief. There was nothing "miraculous" about Adam's creation, other than the fact that he was the FIRST MAN. If he was the second or third man on the earth, then he would've been born from two parents, just like all other men were.
I think we differ here and dont think it's worth discussing. From the verses in chapter 19 I can conclde that Jesus did have a miraculous birth without male intervention.
Okay, if this is your view, then that's fine; you're entitled to your opinion. I just want to know what your opinion is regarding the passage mentioned in 684-87. Why is Jesus mentioned in this passage if he doesn't have a father? And who of the others mentioned in these verses also lack human fathers?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Al'lah was listening, when the wife of Imr'aan said, "My Sustainer Lord! I have pledged/assigned him who is in my belly, purely and exclusively for You, therefore, You accept it from me.
Certainly You are The Ever Listener, The Knowledgeable".Then, when she delivered her, she said, "My Sustainer Lord! I have delivered her a girl!"; and Allah knew what she had delivered and the male is not like the female; "and I have named her Maryem, and I seek Your refuge for her and her progeny from the accursed Satan"
Thereupon her Sustainer Lord granted her a pleasant acceptance and developed her nicely like nice botanicals and Zakaria took the responsibility of guardian/looking after her.
Each and every time Zakaria had entered the sanctuary to meet her, he always found by her side some of eatables.
He asked, "O Maryam! how/from where you get this sustenance?"
She replied, "That is from the grace of Allah.
Indeed Allah provides sustenance, to whomever He wishes, without measure/cause and effect relationship"There and then Zakaria prayed to His Sustainer Lord. He said, "My Sustainer Lord! grant me from Your grace a nice beneficial offspring. Indeed You listen the prayer".
Therefore there and then while he stood for prayer in the sanctuary angels informed him, "Indeed Allah gives you good news of truthful Yahya with the word/promise of Allah that he will be from amongst the righteous a distinguished dignitary, and steadfast, and is elevated/chosen .
He said, "How for me could be a son while I have already crossed over late age to extremity of age and moreover my wife is infertile?"
He replied, "The reason of so happening is that Allah does any new/innovative act/executes what He likes .
Zakaria said," My Sustainer Lord! appoint for me some visible mark of cognition"
He told him, "the mark of cognition for you is that you will not be able to talk to people for three days except by signaling.
And you remember Allah excessively and recall Him praising at dusk and dawn".And when the Angels told Maryam ?O Mariam! Be informed that indeed Allah has chosen and elevated you, and have made you "pure", and has selected you from amongst all the women in the world. O Maryam! you stand for your Sustainer Lord, and you prostrate and bow along with those who bow (in congregational prayer/Ass-sa'laat)?
O you the Messenger , these are from the news of the past/facts not in your sight/vision which We are communicating to you.
Since/and you were not present amongst them when they were casting lots by throwing their pens to decide who of them should be the guardian of Maryam; nor earlier were you with them when they were arguing amongst themselves for taking responsibility/guardianship of Maryam.When Angels told this to Maryam,
"O Maryam! indeed Allah gives you the good news of the son named Meseiha, Easa son of Maryam, with this word/promise from Him that
he will be respectable and honorable in this world and the hereafter and he will be amongst the near-ones of Allah;and His word/promise is that he will talk to people in cradle and in the state of old age
and he will be amongst the righteous people;
She said, "O my Sustainer Lord! How for me could be a son when till now no man has touched me?"He told her, "This information of getting child in the untouched state is because, Maryam, Allah creates from nothingness whatever He desires/willed;
when He finalizes/decides about any matter/thing the sequel is that He orders for that to become evident/come into existence and resultantly that thing/matter get physical execution/ appearance/existence".http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/03.%2001--.htm
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I don't really understand the significance of this. A lot of other things are also mentioned "27" times in the Qur'aan
It's not (just) the 27 thing, but they are both mentioned the same number of times.
Okay, if this is your view, then that's fine; you're entitled to your opinion. I just want to know what your opinion is regarding the passage mentioned in 684-87. Why is Jesus mentioned in this passage if he doesn't have a father? And who of the others mentioned in these verses also lack human fathers?
684 We granted him Isaac and Jacob, both of whom We guided; and Noah We guided from before; and from his progeny is David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. It is such that We reward the doers of good.
685 And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias; all were of the reformed.
686 Also Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah, and Lot; each We have distinguished over the worlds.
687 From their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path.
Did all of them have fathers? Did all of them have brothers? It is "FROM...We have ALSO CHOSEN."
I dont see how that proves your point.Look at Mazhars post.
Peace
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Peace Progressive,
I read Mazhar's post, and it still doesn't prove anything in relation to Jesus being born of a virgin. The concept of the virgin birth is completely dependent of Christian doctrine, which was originally derived from pagan tales of gods and goddesses...
687 From their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path.
Did all of them have fathers? Did all of them have brothers? It is "FROM...We have ALSO CHOSEN."
I dont see how that proves your point.How does it NOT prove my point? It clearly says that these were from "THEIR" fathers, descendants, and brethren; it doesn't differentiate at all. Therefore, if there is no contradiction in the Qur'aan, then ALL of the prophets mentioned in that passage must have fathers, descendants, and siblings. A person can't even have forefathers without first having a father... So, if this passage includes Jesus, and if he's the only one of these prophets who didn't have siblings, a father, or descendants, then this is a contradiction in the Qur'aan. Is this what you're saying, that the Qur'aan contains a clear contradiction regarding the story of Jesus?
Peace,
Ahmad
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And to him We gifted Ies'hauqe and Ya'qoob
All of them We guided. And We guided Noah in aforetime.
And guided in his posterity Da'ued, and Sulie'maan, and Ayub and Yusuf and Musa and Haroon.
And in this way We reward those who conduct moderately, gracefully and generously.
And guided Zakariyya, and Yahya and Easa and Ilyas; each and every one of them was amongst righteous.
And Iesma'eile and Al-Yasa'a and Yunus and Lut . And We gave all of them over and above the entire humanity the uniqueness/sanctity/individuality/distinction.
And some out of their forefathers and some from their posterity and some from their brothers were given uniqueness/individual distinction/guided. And We chose them and We guided them on the Straight Path.With Arabic text
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/006.%20Al%20Anaam%20B.htm -
And mention in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to an eastern place. And she placed a screen to seclude herself from them. Then We sent to her Our angel (Gabriel), and he took the form of a well-created man before her. She said, ?Indeed I seek refuge with the Most Merciful from you, if you do fear God.? (The angel) said, ?I am only the messenger of your Lord to give to you (the news of) a pure boy.? She said, ?How can I have a son, when no man has touched me (in marriage), and I am not a prostitute?? He said, So your Lord said, ?It is easy for Me. And We will make him a sign to people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter (already) decided.?? (Quran 1916-21)
?(And mention) when the angels said, ?O Mary, indeed God gives you the good news of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and of those who are near to God.? ?He will speak to the people in the cradle, and in old age, and he will be of the righteous.? She said, ?My Lord, how can I have a son when no man has touched me.? He said, ?So (it will be,) for God creates what He wants. When He decides something, He only says to it, ?Be,? and it is. And He will teach him the Book and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel. And (will make him) a messenger to the Children of Israel (saying), ?Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I make for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, then breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by the permission of God. And I heal the blind and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by the permission of God. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Surely, there is a sign for you in that, if you are believers. And (I have come) confirming the Torah that was (revealed) before me, and to allow you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a proof from your Lord, so fear God and obey me. Indeed, God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. This is the straight path.? (Quran 345-51)
And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed (a spirit) into her through Our angel, and We made her and her son (Jesus) a sign for the worlds.? (Quran 2191)
?So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, ?I wish I had died before this, and had been long forgotten. Then (baby Jesus) called her from below her, saying, ?Don?t be sad. Your Lord has provided a stream under you.? Shake the trunk of the palm tree towards you, and it will drop on you fresh ripe dates. So eat and drink and be happy. And if you see any human, then say, ?Indeed I have vowed a fast to the Most Merciful so I will not speak to any human today.? Then she carried him and brought him to her people. They said, ?O Mary, indeed you have done a great evil.? ?O sister of Aaron, your father was not an evil man, and your mother was not a fornicator.? So she pointed to him. They said, ?How can we speak to a child in the cradle?? (Jesus) said, ?Indeed, I am a slave of God. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet. And He has made me blessed wherever I am, and has commanded me to me pray and give charity as long as I remain alive. And (has made) me kind to my mother, and did not make me arrogant or miserable. And peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I will die, and the day I will be raised alive.?? (Quran 1922-33)
Indeed, Jesus is like Adam in front of God. He created him from dust, then said to him, ?Be,? and he was.? (Quran 359)
And We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, And We gave them refuge and rest on a high ground with flowing water.? (Quran 2350)
If you remove your 19 glasses only then you will be able to see the tryth.
D sorry no offence peace
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If you remove your 19 glasses only then you will be able to see the tryth.
sorry no offence peace
You are you talking to? Ahmad or me?
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And some out of their forefathers and some from their posterity and some from their brothers were given uniqueness/individual distinction/guided. And We chose them and We guided them on the Straight Path.
You can't be serious with this one, guy... First of all, like I said, a person can't have "forefathers" without having a "father"; that's completely illogical. When the concept of a forefather is mentioned in semetic scripture (i.e. Torah, Qur'aan, etc.), it is ALWAYS referring to the father's bloodline. That's why Jesus is rejected by Jews as being the maschiach, because Christians claim that he had no father. Without a father, one can have no forefathers... Also, the passage doesn't use the word SOME to describe the people, it says that God guided their fathers, children, and siblings. That means ALL of them, not some... So, again, who was Jesus' father, since he was clearly mentioned in this passage?
I think you should check out this website. It gives a very detailed view on this matter, from an Islaamic viewpoint
http//aaiil.info/misconceptions/jesus/argqh.htm -
Peace Afridi,
If you remove your 19 glasses only then you will be able to see the tryth.
What a ridiculous comment, considering the fact that RASHAD KHALIFA BELIEVED IN THE VIRGIN BIRTH... Maybe you need to remove YOUR "19 glasses", buddy... )
What's your take on this passage
God originates the creation, the REPRODUCES IT, then to Him you will be returned. (3011)
How does He reproduce the creation (Adam, humanity)? You believe it's through virgin births?
O people, We have created you from the male and female... (4913)
Is this passage talking about everybody EXCEPT JESUS?! The scriptures repeatedly state that men are formed from sperm being mixed (or normal human reproduction). This is talking about all men, not all men except Jesus; this is God's system of creation. Or are you saying that God's system is changeable?
This is God's eternal system, and you will find that God's system is unchangeable. (3362)
Why do you think the law of God applies to everyone in humanity EXCEPT JESUS?! This is idol worship, and everything in creation is subject to God's law. There are no exceptions...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Afridi,
What a ridiculous comment, considering the fact that RASHAD KHALIFA BELIEVED IN THE VIRGIN BIRTH... Maybe you need to remove YOUR "19 glasses", buddy...
laugh
She's a female, BTW.