Isa ibn Maryam
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Also, the Qur'aan says
The example of Jesus, as far as God is concerned, is the same as that of Adam He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was. (359)
By reading through the entire passage, it becomes clear that, in this case, Adam is being referred to as the entire human race, not just the one person Adam. This is used as an argument against the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, showing that Jesus is completely human, just like all other humans. This is confirmed in other passages as well, where God says that He created ALL HUMANS from dust, not just Adam (i.e. 1837; 225; 3020; 3511; 4067). So, the passage in 359 is emphasizing that Jesus was made just like the rest of humanity, and this is through normal pregnancy procedures. The Qur'aan never says anything about a "miraculous birth" of Jesus at all, and Maryam is never called a "virgin" in the scripture at all. This concept is a fabrication, adapted from the Christian viewpoint, which was originally adapted from the pagan belief systems of ancient times...
I dont agree with your interpretation. Adam AND Jesus are mentioned 27 times each in the Quran. It was because they both had miraculous creations. I think we differ here and dont think it's worth discussing. From the verses in chapter 19 I can conclde that Jesus did have a miraculous birth without male intervention.
Peace
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The thing is, just because the authors of the New Testament tried to justify the scandalous birth of Jesus by misquoting the Hebrew Bible doesn't mean there wasn't a scandal at all.
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The Ahmadiya account is bogus in my opinion. The only reason they even make the argument is to try to make Jesus more human because their 'Jesus no. 2' died of diarrhea. They're no different than Mormons who claim Jerusalem is in Utah and that Jesus came to the US and that they're a lost tribe of Israel.
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The Quranic account of Jesus' 'death' could easily be harmonized with the tradition Christian account (with the possible exception of the Gospel of John where Jesus actually has hole marks in his hands).
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My own personal view is that Jesus DID die by crucifixion, and that the story should be read in light of 2154 "And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not."
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Sparta!
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Peace Progressive,
I dont agree with your interpretation. Adam AND Jesus are mentioned 27 times each in the Quran. It was because they both had miraculous creations.
I don't really understand the significance of this. A lot of other things are also mentioned "27" times in the Qur'aan, and it doesn't mean they have anything to do with Adam or Jesus... Also, the creation of Adam and the birth of Jesus were totally different, to say the least. First of all, Adam didn't have a mother or a father; he was shaped directly by God. This wasn't the case with Jesus, who was actually born to human parents, or at least a human parent. Secondly, Adam's creation spawned the birth of the rest of humanity; this doesn't have anything in comparison to Jesus, who, according to the Biblical account, had no children. Thirdly, nothing in the scriptures suggests that Adam's creation was a sign for anyone, since nobody visibly saw God shape him; it's strictly hearsay turned into belief. There was nothing "miraculous" about Adam's creation, other than the fact that he was the FIRST MAN. If he was the second or third man on the earth, then he would've been born from two parents, just like all other men were.
I think we differ here and dont think it's worth discussing. From the verses in chapter 19 I can conclde that Jesus did have a miraculous birth without male intervention.
Okay, if this is your view, then that's fine; you're entitled to your opinion. I just want to know what your opinion is regarding the passage mentioned in 684-87. Why is Jesus mentioned in this passage if he doesn't have a father? And who of the others mentioned in these verses also lack human fathers?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Al'lah was listening, when the wife of Imr'aan said, "My Sustainer Lord! I have pledged/assigned him who is in my belly, purely and exclusively for You, therefore, You accept it from me.
Certainly You are The Ever Listener, The Knowledgeable".Then, when she delivered her, she said, "My Sustainer Lord! I have delivered her a girl!"; and Allah knew what she had delivered and the male is not like the female; "and I have named her Maryem, and I seek Your refuge for her and her progeny from the accursed Satan"
Thereupon her Sustainer Lord granted her a pleasant acceptance and developed her nicely like nice botanicals and Zakaria took the responsibility of guardian/looking after her.
Each and every time Zakaria had entered the sanctuary to meet her, he always found by her side some of eatables.
He asked, "O Maryam! how/from where you get this sustenance?"
She replied, "That is from the grace of Allah.
Indeed Allah provides sustenance, to whomever He wishes, without measure/cause and effect relationship"There and then Zakaria prayed to His Sustainer Lord. He said, "My Sustainer Lord! grant me from Your grace a nice beneficial offspring. Indeed You listen the prayer".
Therefore there and then while he stood for prayer in the sanctuary angels informed him, "Indeed Allah gives you good news of truthful Yahya with the word/promise of Allah that he will be from amongst the righteous a distinguished dignitary, and steadfast, and is elevated/chosen .
He said, "How for me could be a son while I have already crossed over late age to extremity of age and moreover my wife is infertile?"
He replied, "The reason of so happening is that Allah does any new/innovative act/executes what He likes .
Zakaria said," My Sustainer Lord! appoint for me some visible mark of cognition"
He told him, "the mark of cognition for you is that you will not be able to talk to people for three days except by signaling.
And you remember Allah excessively and recall Him praising at dusk and dawn".And when the Angels told Maryam ?O Mariam! Be informed that indeed Allah has chosen and elevated you, and have made you "pure", and has selected you from amongst all the women in the world. O Maryam! you stand for your Sustainer Lord, and you prostrate and bow along with those who bow (in congregational prayer/Ass-sa'laat)?
O you the Messenger , these are from the news of the past/facts not in your sight/vision which We are communicating to you.
Since/and you were not present amongst them when they were casting lots by throwing their pens to decide who of them should be the guardian of Maryam; nor earlier were you with them when they were arguing amongst themselves for taking responsibility/guardianship of Maryam.When Angels told this to Maryam,
"O Maryam! indeed Allah gives you the good news of the son named Meseiha, Easa son of Maryam, with this word/promise from Him that
he will be respectable and honorable in this world and the hereafter and he will be amongst the near-ones of Allah;and His word/promise is that he will talk to people in cradle and in the state of old age
and he will be amongst the righteous people;
She said, "O my Sustainer Lord! How for me could be a son when till now no man has touched me?"He told her, "This information of getting child in the untouched state is because, Maryam, Allah creates from nothingness whatever He desires/willed;
when He finalizes/decides about any matter/thing the sequel is that He orders for that to become evident/come into existence and resultantly that thing/matter get physical execution/ appearance/existence".http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/03.%2001--.htm
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I don't really understand the significance of this. A lot of other things are also mentioned "27" times in the Qur'aan
It's not (just) the 27 thing, but they are both mentioned the same number of times.
Okay, if this is your view, then that's fine; you're entitled to your opinion. I just want to know what your opinion is regarding the passage mentioned in 684-87. Why is Jesus mentioned in this passage if he doesn't have a father? And who of the others mentioned in these verses also lack human fathers?
684 We granted him Isaac and Jacob, both of whom We guided; and Noah We guided from before; and from his progeny is David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. It is such that We reward the doers of good.
685 And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias; all were of the reformed.
686 Also Ishmael, Elisha, Jonah, and Lot; each We have distinguished over the worlds.
687 From their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path.
Did all of them have fathers? Did all of them have brothers? It is "FROM...We have ALSO CHOSEN."
I dont see how that proves your point.Look at Mazhars post.
Peace
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Peace Progressive,
I read Mazhar's post, and it still doesn't prove anything in relation to Jesus being born of a virgin. The concept of the virgin birth is completely dependent of Christian doctrine, which was originally derived from pagan tales of gods and goddesses...
687 From their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path.
Did all of them have fathers? Did all of them have brothers? It is "FROM...We have ALSO CHOSEN."
I dont see how that proves your point.How does it NOT prove my point? It clearly says that these were from "THEIR" fathers, descendants, and brethren; it doesn't differentiate at all. Therefore, if there is no contradiction in the Qur'aan, then ALL of the prophets mentioned in that passage must have fathers, descendants, and siblings. A person can't even have forefathers without first having a father... So, if this passage includes Jesus, and if he's the only one of these prophets who didn't have siblings, a father, or descendants, then this is a contradiction in the Qur'aan. Is this what you're saying, that the Qur'aan contains a clear contradiction regarding the story of Jesus?
Peace,
Ahmad
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And to him We gifted Ies'hauqe and Ya'qoob
All of them We guided. And We guided Noah in aforetime.
And guided in his posterity Da'ued, and Sulie'maan, and Ayub and Yusuf and Musa and Haroon.
And in this way We reward those who conduct moderately, gracefully and generously.
And guided Zakariyya, and Yahya and Easa and Ilyas; each and every one of them was amongst righteous.
And Iesma'eile and Al-Yasa'a and Yunus and Lut . And We gave all of them over and above the entire humanity the uniqueness/sanctity/individuality/distinction.
And some out of their forefathers and some from their posterity and some from their brothers were given uniqueness/individual distinction/guided. And We chose them and We guided them on the Straight Path.With Arabic text
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/006.%20Al%20Anaam%20B.htm -
And mention in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to an eastern place. And she placed a screen to seclude herself from them. Then We sent to her Our angel (Gabriel), and he took the form of a well-created man before her. She said, ?Indeed I seek refuge with the Most Merciful from you, if you do fear God.? (The angel) said, ?I am only the messenger of your Lord to give to you (the news of) a pure boy.? She said, ?How can I have a son, when no man has touched me (in marriage), and I am not a prostitute?? He said, So your Lord said, ?It is easy for Me. And We will make him a sign to people and a mercy from Us. And it is a matter (already) decided.?? (Quran 1916-21)
?(And mention) when the angels said, ?O Mary, indeed God gives you the good news of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and of those who are near to God.? ?He will speak to the people in the cradle, and in old age, and he will be of the righteous.? She said, ?My Lord, how can I have a son when no man has touched me.? He said, ?So (it will be,) for God creates what He wants. When He decides something, He only says to it, ?Be,? and it is. And He will teach him the Book and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel. And (will make him) a messenger to the Children of Israel (saying), ?Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord. I make for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, then breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by the permission of God. And I heal the blind and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by the permission of God. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Surely, there is a sign for you in that, if you are believers. And (I have come) confirming the Torah that was (revealed) before me, and to allow you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a proof from your Lord, so fear God and obey me. Indeed, God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. This is the straight path.? (Quran 345-51)
And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed (a spirit) into her through Our angel, and We made her and her son (Jesus) a sign for the worlds.? (Quran 2191)
?So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a remote place. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said, ?I wish I had died before this, and had been long forgotten. Then (baby Jesus) called her from below her, saying, ?Don?t be sad. Your Lord has provided a stream under you.? Shake the trunk of the palm tree towards you, and it will drop on you fresh ripe dates. So eat and drink and be happy. And if you see any human, then say, ?Indeed I have vowed a fast to the Most Merciful so I will not speak to any human today.? Then she carried him and brought him to her people. They said, ?O Mary, indeed you have done a great evil.? ?O sister of Aaron, your father was not an evil man, and your mother was not a fornicator.? So she pointed to him. They said, ?How can we speak to a child in the cradle?? (Jesus) said, ?Indeed, I am a slave of God. He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet. And He has made me blessed wherever I am, and has commanded me to me pray and give charity as long as I remain alive. And (has made) me kind to my mother, and did not make me arrogant or miserable. And peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I will die, and the day I will be raised alive.?? (Quran 1922-33)
Indeed, Jesus is like Adam in front of God. He created him from dust, then said to him, ?Be,? and he was.? (Quran 359)
And We made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, And We gave them refuge and rest on a high ground with flowing water.? (Quran 2350)
If you remove your 19 glasses only then you will be able to see the tryth.
D sorry no offence peace
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If you remove your 19 glasses only then you will be able to see the tryth.
sorry no offence peace
You are you talking to? Ahmad or me?
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And some out of their forefathers and some from their posterity and some from their brothers were given uniqueness/individual distinction/guided. And We chose them and We guided them on the Straight Path.
You can't be serious with this one, guy... First of all, like I said, a person can't have "forefathers" without having a "father"; that's completely illogical. When the concept of a forefather is mentioned in semetic scripture (i.e. Torah, Qur'aan, etc.), it is ALWAYS referring to the father's bloodline. That's why Jesus is rejected by Jews as being the maschiach, because Christians claim that he had no father. Without a father, one can have no forefathers... Also, the passage doesn't use the word SOME to describe the people, it says that God guided their fathers, children, and siblings. That means ALL of them, not some... So, again, who was Jesus' father, since he was clearly mentioned in this passage?
I think you should check out this website. It gives a very detailed view on this matter, from an Islaamic viewpoint
http//aaiil.info/misconceptions/jesus/argqh.htm -
Peace Afridi,
If you remove your 19 glasses only then you will be able to see the tryth.
What a ridiculous comment, considering the fact that RASHAD KHALIFA BELIEVED IN THE VIRGIN BIRTH... Maybe you need to remove YOUR "19 glasses", buddy... )
What's your take on this passage
God originates the creation, the REPRODUCES IT, then to Him you will be returned. (3011)
How does He reproduce the creation (Adam, humanity)? You believe it's through virgin births?
O people, We have created you from the male and female... (4913)
Is this passage talking about everybody EXCEPT JESUS?! The scriptures repeatedly state that men are formed from sperm being mixed (or normal human reproduction). This is talking about all men, not all men except Jesus; this is God's system of creation. Or are you saying that God's system is changeable?
This is God's eternal system, and you will find that God's system is unchangeable. (3362)
Why do you think the law of God applies to everyone in humanity EXCEPT JESUS?! This is idol worship, and everything in creation is subject to God's law. There are no exceptions...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Afridi,
What a ridiculous comment, considering the fact that RASHAD KHALIFA BELIEVED IN THE VIRGIN BIRTH... Maybe you need to remove YOUR "19 glasses", buddy...
laugh
She's a female, BTW.
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I felt tempted to post two things. One, a post by a member on another forum I visit. And the other being Thomas Jefferson's view of the birth of Jesus.
#1. Original post for your viewing pleasure here https//www.zoklet.net/bbs/showpost.php?p=119399&postcount=15 Occasionally I get a little tired with the way both the christians and atheists here treat or rather mistreat the poor old bloody bible. SOoo I figured it was about time for another jackketch 'bible 101' Lets get some stuff straight before we start. I'm not trying to write a work of scholarship. You want indepth discussions of Late Chaldean Eschatology -and its influence on the price of Pumpernickel bread in Silesia in the C15' then you can stop reading now. If I wanted to write a phd, i'd go back to Canterbury. Neither am I wanting to push any doctrinal line. I save no souls. Nor will I drown you in excruciating complete quotes and sources la Digi. (if you want sources its all out there in the amazing magical Kingdom Of Google). I do ask however If you're christian then please try forgetting everything you have ever been taught while reading this. Yes i know from personal experience how difficult that is, but please... If you're a bible sceptic then please try forgetting everything christians (who in general should not be allowed anywhere near the damn book) have ever told you the bible says. I thought we'd tackle a really controversial bit, the 'Annunciation'...or rather that bit in LUKE chapter 1, when a nice jewish girl gets pwned by God. I'm using the ASV bible , simply because i'd rather chew my own leg off than use the NIV (yes people, it IS that bad a translation!) Remember please, this post is all about treating the bible for what is, namely a collection of historical documents translated into modern language. We are going to try and understand what the author was trying to say, to understand it as he meant it. All you need to ride this train is some common sense, an IQ that allows you to wank and turn the pages of the mag at the same time and, if you feel the need ,the power of Google. Quote 26 Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. 28 And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee. 29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this might be. 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary for thou hast found favor with God. 31 And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David 33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. 34 And Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God. Right, Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth . Lets forget the calendar bit (it is infact important and the 6 months bit is there for a reason but life is too short). PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take any mental image like this you may have and put it in the round filing cabinet marked 'TRASH'. NO supernatural here. The bible itself tells us that Gabriel was a 'man' or 'like unto a man' ( Daniel ch 8 v15 and ch 9 v 20). All the word 'angel' means is a man sent with a message from god. ( although it may also have meant an elder of the some jewish sect or such). No one is quite sure where Nazareth was or if that was the correct spelling or if it was a totally different town in the original. The only thing , most scholars agree on, is that it sure isn't the Nazareth we know today. to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary Great scholarly and not so scholarly reams have been written on the subject of Mary's virginity. The long and short of it is the word back then simply meant 'maid' , ie said something about her marital state and not the state of her hymen. Society then as now liked to believe that the two went hand in hand *cough* *snigger* *cough*. Also it is worth considering that the whole virginity thing may very well be later attempt by christians to doctor the story so it seemed to fit with OT prophecy. Something they did all too often. The really really important part is the fact that Joseph was of royal blood. But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this might be. So why was Mary so 'troubled'? We now know it wasn't because some winged ber Aryan was floating 4 foot off the ground in front of her. LOSE THOSE IMAGES, people! Whoever Gabriel was, he spoke to her in the name of god and not only that he told her that god wanted her for a sunbeam or whatever. Some stranger with wild eyes, 'on a mission from god' turns up on your doorstep and says 'god wants you to do something' then you'd probably be 'greatly troubled' too? Lets not read more into this than is on the page, yeah? And behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. uhm just how young was Mary??! Did angel of the Lord need to do a quick 'birds and bees' bit? Scholars tend to think she was about 13.But that may just be some wishful thinking. You'll note that every bible pic ever portrays her not only as a member of the Master Race but also well above the age of consent. DITCH THOSE MENTAL IMAGES , people please. They are the biggest handicap to doing the account justice. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David 33 and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. This is the important part of the whole thing. Not whether or not Mary been shagging Joseph out of wedlock. This is the crucial bit, the point the author was trying to get across. Jesus was going to be King of Israel and had a rightful claim on the throne. Amazing how time and time again christians miss that simple point or even worse read it and think what Gabriel actually said was that Jesus was going to be the Saviour Of The World and Be some kind of half man/half God thang. And Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee wherefore also the holy thing which is begotten shall be called the Son of God. So was Mary lying? Well considering at the very least her admitting to having had sex before marriage would have got her been beaten and driven out, if not stoned to death, one could forgive her fibbing. Christians like to imagine that Mary being 'blessed by God' and having 'found favour with God' was somehow incapable of lying. But they forget that throughout the OT that those beloved by god tended to be 'morally challenged'. King David himself was a liar, an adulterer, a murderer and a bad father and god LOVED him. But again so many people misread the passage. Its just our dirty minds. We don't need to question Mary's virginity at that point Gabriel is talking about something that will happen, not something that has already happened. There is good reason a bit later one to question her fidelity to Joseph but thats something for another 101. Although the line of this bit does kind of give those who know a bit about ancient religions a clue. So what have we got? A supernatural being coming down to earth to tell a sinless maiden that she is pregnant and that her son will be our own personal saviour? Nope. You can believe that if you want, thats your right. But lets not claim the passage says its so. ALL the passage says is that a man/prophet/preacher/scary loon you'd cross the street to avoid, turned up on Mary's door step one day and told her she WOULD have a child who would go on to be the rightful King of Israel. No more than that. And once you know a little of the historical background (like Herod was not the rightful king) then it all seems quite credible.#2. An excerpt from The Jefferson Bible available here http//www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/ . Which is basically the KJV bible without the water walking zombie named Jesus Christ.
AND it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.
2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David
5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
8 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS.
9 And when they had performed all things according to the law of the Lord, they returned into Galilee, to their own city Nazareth.
10 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom and the grace of God was upon him.Enjoy. -
You can't be serious with this one, guy...   First of all, like I said, a person can't have "forefathers" without having a "father"; that's completely illogical. When the concept of a forefather is mentioned in semetic scripture (i.e. Torah, Qur'aan, etc.), it is ALWAYS referring to the father's bloodline. That's why Jesus is rejected by Jews as being the maschiach, because Christians claim that he had no father. Without a father, one can have no forefathers... Also, the passage doesn't use the word SOME to describe the people, it says that God guided their fathers, children, and siblings. That means ALL of them, not some... So, again, who was Jesus' father, since he was clearly mentioned in this passage?
I think you should check out this website. It gives a very detailed view on this matter, from an Islaamic viewpoint
http//aaiil.info/misconceptions/jesus/argqh.htmFather and grand and grand grand father of the mother is also the forefather of son. Syeda Maryam had a father, she was daughter of Imran. What is the relationship with Imran of Easa Elahissalam?
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I felt tempted to post two things. One, a post by a member on another forum I visit. And the other being Thomas Jefferson's view of the birth of Jesus.
#1. Original post for your viewing pleasure here https//www.zoklet.net/bbs/showpost.php?p=119399&postcount=15#2. An excerpt from The Jefferson Bible available here http//www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/ . Which is basically the KJV bible without the water walking zombie named Jesus Christ.
Enjoy. Was that first part by James Tabor or something/ It sounds like someone trying to advocate the Pantera story. I don't buy it, though, obviously. In the Hebrew Bible you have (off the top of my head) three 'supernatural beings' promising a miraculous birth for the sake of salvation. Shimshon and Shamuel and Issaq.