Isa ibn Maryam
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Was that first part by James Tabor or something/ It sounds like someone trying to advocate the Pantera story. I don't buy it, though, obviously. In the Hebrew Bible you have (off the top of my head) three 'supernatural beings' promising a miraculous birth for the sake of salvation. Shimshon and Shamuel and Issaq.
I'm pretty sure the dude isn't James Tabor. I'll ask him though.
And I just looked up the Pantera story on here http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera
Funily enough, the two accounts I see on there, the first is written by "Celsus, an anti-Christian Greek philosopher" and the other comes from "Tosefta, a secondary collection of Jewish oral law." I'm going to presume that both parties have private ends that could easily be met by (de)faming Mary of adultery.
Here is the original thread, and here is another post by him regarding John's Revelations that makes a lot of sense to me.
And here is a thread on FM regarding nasara/nazarenes/birthplace of Jesus.
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Peace Afridi,
What a ridiculous comment, considering the fact that RASHAD KHALIFA BELIEVED IN THE VIRGIN BIRTH... Maybe you need to remove YOUR "19 glasses", buddy... )
What's your take on this passage
God originates the creation, the REPRODUCES IT, then to Him you will be returned. (3011)
How does He reproduce the creation (Adam, humanity)? You believe it's through virgin births?
O people, We have created you from the male and female... (4913)
Is this passage talking about everybody EXCEPT JESUS?! The scriptures repeatedly state that men are formed from sperm being mixed (or normal human reproduction). This is talking about all men, not all men except Jesus; this is God's system of creation. Or are you saying that God's system is changeable?
This is God's eternal system, and you will find that God's system is unchangeable. (3362)
Why do you think the law of God applies to everyone in humanity EXCEPT JESUS?! This is idol worship, and everything in creation is subject to God's law. There are no exceptions...
Peace,
Ahmad
I am not talking abt your rashad Khalifa
sorry dud you are always confused ;D
peace
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I am not talking abt your rashad Khalifa
sorry dud you are always confused ;D
Regardless of the comment about Rashad Khalifa, whether you were talking about him or not, what is your opinion on the rest of the post? Do you believe that God's eternal system applies/d to everyone EXCEPT JESUS?
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Regardless of the comment about Rashad Khalifa, whether you were talking about him or not, what is your opinion on the rest of the post? Do you believe that God's eternal system applies/d to everyone EXCEPT JESUS?
Easa alahissalam is NOT the only exception; he is exception only amongst human beings. Other livings are also composed of pair, as an eternal principle. But see the Bees. A male is born without a male participation. But female bee is born only by combination of male and female. Allah is NOT bound by cause and effect relationship; He creates in whatever manner He likes/wills.
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Are you talking about yourself rotfl
??
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People see the Virgin Birth as an extreme miracle but yet under-estimate other incredible conceptions like that of Sarah. She is menopaused, meaning there are no ovarian follicles. So what happened? According to God's laws she too must not have a child.
Other than miraclous conception, heck many things in the Quran defy the laws of physics.
The question is why?
To be a sign unto the latter generations as a reminder.
Imagine there were no miracles in the past, all the latter generation would have disbelieved.
Even in the Torah it explains why God kept punishing Pharaoh while hardening his heart. It was to display His signs to the Israelites that they may warn about the power of God to their descendants.
Guys, Moses threw the staff and it turned into a snake! and you are amazed of the virgin birth? hmm
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Easa alahissalam is NOT the only exception; he is exception only amongst human beings. Other livings are also composed of pair, as an eternal principle. But see the Bees. A male is born without a male participation. But female bee is born only by combination of male and female. Allah is NOT bound by cause and effect relationship; He creates in whatever manner He likes/wills.
This is an illogical argument. If Jesus was a HUMAN BEING, which the Qur'aan clearly states that he was, then why is his birth comparable to that of bees?! By the scriptures alleging that Jesus was human, just like all other humans, it's saying that he was born just like all other humans... Like I said, the only thing "miraculous" about Jesus' conception is that it was preannounced by angels. It was no different than the birth of Isaac, who's birth was also foretold to Abraham before it happened. Natural human childbirth, regardless of external factors, are all cause by the unification of a MALE and a FEMALE. This is God's system, and it is unchangeable. That's why there is no record of this ("emaculate conception" ever happening BEFORE OR AFTER Jesus, at least not in the scriptures or in historical formats.
It is mentioned in the early pagan writings, in which some of their gods were born of virgin women and had life stories IDENTICAL to the Christian story of Jesus. If you wanna believe those, then that's your perrogative; but I doubt those stories are true, since they're angled towards sun worship. The Biblical story of Jesus was simply modeled after those past pagan stories...
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598463.0
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Peace Rami,
People see the Virgin Birth as an extreme miracle but yet under-estimate other incredible conceptions like that of Sarah. She is menopaused, meaning there are no ovarian follicles. So what happened? According to God's laws she too must not have a child.
Other than miraclous conception, heck many things in the Quran defy the laws of physics.
The question is why?
To be a sign unto the latter generations as a reminder.
Imagine there were no miracles in the past, all the latter generation would have disbelieved.
The problem with your argument is that NONE of the births recorded in the scriptures have been recognized as signs to the people. Why? Because nobody can verify an emaculate conception. It's all hearsay. Isaac's birth didn't serve as a sign to future generations; he was born to become the father of the Israelite tribes... In the case of Sarah, there's no evidence that she actually went through post menopause; rather it was probably peri-menopause. All it took was for Abraham's sperm to be present during one of her rare ovulation periods, and there was a chance (slight of course) that she would've become pregnant. Menopause is just the instance when the body has stopped ovulating for 12 consecutive months. This doesn't, however, prove that the woman can't have children; it just makes those chances very rare and unlikely. Again, this is not against the laws of nature, since God's system is eternal and unchangeable...
In the case of Jesus, what would be the point of using HEARSAY as a sign for future generations? As mentioned, nobody can actually confirm an emaculate conception, except the mother, and Maryam never stated in her defense that she was a "virgin". So, where did you get this conclusion from? The Biblical new testament, which has already been proven to be false and fabricated?
Did anybody else see (and verify) an angel being in Maryam's presence to give her an emaculate conception of a miraculous child? NO; in fact, the Qur'aan says that the angel was sent human in all respects. So, even if somebody did see the angel, they wouldn't have known it was an angel... Did Maryam ever tell anyone, "Hey guys, I'm still a virgin. An angel put this baby here..."? NO, this is never mentioned at all. She didn't have a defense when the people asked her about the baby, because she knew she'd had intercourse and was capable of getting pregnant and having a child. That's why she just pointed to the infant... Did Jesus ever say to anybody during his ministry, "I'm a prophet of God, performing great works, born of a virgin woman..."? NO, Jesus never claimed to have been born of a virgin either... So, how was this to serve as a sign to the people, if nobody could confirm it?
Peace,
Ahmad
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My friend you can't confirm anything from the miracles of the Quran.
It is just faith.
Prove to me that Moses split the sea.
None of the signs of the Quran was seen by us. It is a text.
I am just stating what this text actually says.
That doesn't mean it's unconfirmable, which is a completely different concept, especially when it comes to future generations. The scripture says that THOUSANDS of Israelites witnessed the parting of the sea. Even though the eye witnesses are gone now, it doesn't change the fact that there were people who could confirm the events, and these experiences were most likely passed down from generation to generation, even outside of the Torah writings. That's one basic way they were confirmed back then, and because of this, these same instances mentioned in the Qur'aan can be confirmed by comparing them to the incidents recorded in the Torah... It's not the same concept as the virgin birth, something that could NEVER have been confirmed by anyone. There was no way anyone could ever verify this claim unless they were with Maryam 24/7, ever moment of every day. And even then, they wouldn't know what's happening inside her body; this is complete hearsay, and it can't serve as a sign for anyone...
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Just because a scripture states it has been witnessed by a nation doesn't make it true.
You still can't confirm anything.
Its all just speculation and pure faith.
They are many mythologies around the world, why do you believe in the hebrew mythology?
Why not the greek mythology?
Do you have any evidence for the Biblical stories?
Archaeologically, the Bible and the Quran are bogus fairytales.
What about the Sumerians??
Where was the God of Israel then?
What about the Egyptians?
What is so special with the hebrew fairytales...they are as scientifically fictional as any other mythology.
peace
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Peace Rami,
You can't compare the mythical stories of ancient societies to the Hebrew history recorded in the Torah. First of all, the acts were witnessed by THOUSANDS of people, and they were confirmed by all the people of the time, even generations later. Therefore, if one person came up claiming that God spoke to thousands of people, which the Torah alleges, others would say, "Why didn't my parents tell me anything about this?" If the acts were so miraculous, then people would speak upon them for generations, telling their children and their children's children; in other words, the stories wouldn't be easily forgotten. This is one of the main reasons why the oral Torah (i.e. the Mischna) was preserved for so long, even before it was written down in the second century. Those stories, including the ones that are NOT mentioned anywhere in the Hebrew Bible, were preserved for thousands of years, word for word, being exact among hundreds of thousands of people DOWN TO THE LETTER. This is not coincidental, it's because these events actually happened, and the stories were passed down WORD FOR WORD through the generations of Jews and Hebrews...
Later on, the Qur'aan confirmed these Hebrew stories, which you call "myths"...
It pretty much boils down to original composition and structure, especially in relation to religion. Islaam is based on the foundations of Judaism, which is why the Qur'aan confirms the Torah. Nazarenism is also based on the traditions of ancient Judaism, which is why the Enjeel confirms the Torah, and this is also true in light of the fact that Jesus was a Jew and he taught Judaism and adherence to the Torah... So, based on this concept, Judaism is the structural foundation of all of the Abrahamic faiths. If Judaism is wrong, then Islaam and Nazarenism are also wrong; there's no denying this. If the Torah is wrong, then both the Qur'aan and the Enjeel are also wrong, since both of them claim to verify the Torah. If the Jewish prophets spoke falsely, then Muhammad was a false prophet for confirming their teachings... Considering this, do you really want to debate the authenticity of Torah and Judaism? How can the Qur'aan and Islaam stand without these?
Peace,
Ahmad
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...If the acts were so miraculous, then people would speak upon them for generations, telling their children and their children's children; in other words, the stories wouldn't be easily forgotten. This is one of the main reasons why the oral Torah (i.e. the Mischna) was preserved for so long, even before it was written down in the second century. Those stories, including the ones that are NOT mentioned anywhere in the Hebrew Bible, were preserved for thousands of years, word for word, being exact among hundreds of thousands of people DOWN TO THE LETTER. This is not coincidental, it's because these events actually happened, and the stories were passed down WORD FOR WORD through the generations of Jews and Hebrews...
Hinduism is older than Judaism with lots of myths preserved too.
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Where does it say so--thousands?
I just said "thousands" to be simplistic and to give the general point of the argument. Actually, according to the Hebrew records, there were many more people than this...
Exodus 1237 mentions 600,000 walking men, besides children. In the census taken about a year after the exodus, recorded at Numbers 12, 3, 45, 46, there were 603,550 males (20 years old and older) plus 22,000 male Levites over one month old (Numbers 232, 33; 339). Keep in mind that these are only referring to the males, not the females. If you consider, hypothetically, that all the adult men, numbered at 600,000, had one wife, that would estimate to 1,200,000 total adults who were witnesses to this incident. And that's not even including the sons and daughters of these Jews, who were also witnesses to the event... To say "thousands" is a simple generalization, but it wouldn't be farfetched at all for me to say this population numbered into the "millions"...
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Rami,
what really can bake a person's noodle is when you tell them that the majority of myths from Sumer (creator God, savior figure, flood.. dying/rising God) are there.
Copied by the Jews later? makes one ponder lol. One needs not even go into the fact that pre-Yahwistic Jews had a Goddess and she was axed out when the patriarchy rose to power and the rabbinical reforms. ( Gotta love history which tells the whole truth that most religions would rather forget. )
I might say, no disrespect intended, that a later holy book is just the earlier one with a new spin to it.
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Rami,
what really can bake a person's noodle is when you tell them that the majority of myths from Sumer (creator God, savior figure, flood.. dying/rising God) are there.
Copied by the Jews later? makes one ponder lol. One needs not even go into the fact that pre-Yahwistic Jews had a Goddess and she was axed out when the patriarchy rose to power and the rabbinical reforms. ( Gotta love history which tells the whole truth that most religions would rather forget. )
I might say, no disrespect intended, that a later holy book is just the earlier one with a new spin to it.
And it's apparently a very smart spin indeed. Just note the obvious differences in eschatology.
And you are right, history and archaeology tells what religion will never tell.
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The promises in the Torah was apparently not coming true, people who followed the Law didn't live a long life and some dies without having children so the idea of reward after death was raised in Jewish thought to compensate which slipped into the Quran.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnaPxPPvvP0