Quran inheritance mistake

nwryn

Peace all,

This is a theory I have, assuming that kalaalah means "fatherless".

Each new section begins with "wa" (but not "wa-in&quot, when it is needed as a separator. These sections are

Children
Parents/mother in certain scenarios
Husbands
Wives
Siblings in presence of children
Siblings and possibly mother in absence of children

Sections 2, 3, 4 and 5 all end with "mim ba'di wasiyyatin yoosee bihaa aw daynin" or a variation that agrees gramatically. Therefore these shares are fixed shares from the whole.

Sections 1 and 6 do not contain or end with that statement. Therefore, these are not fixed shares from the whole, but rules for dividing the remainder amongst the remaining legitimate heirs whose shares are not fixed. Of course, section 6 does not come into the picture when section 1 is being used, and vice versa.

I see no reason for kalaalah to mean "spouseless".

Samia

Salaam Samia,

Parents and spouses are not mentioned in 4176, but children (or the lack thereof) are, c.f. 412. So, don't you think that 4176 deals with a special case of kalaalah, where there are no children?

Salaam Nooreen
Kalala does not have children nor parents, but siblings.
4176 is a special case of kalala where there is no spouse (because a kalala can have a spouse).
However, a non kalala may have siblings who will inherit with the deceased parents (verse 411).

Inheritance verses deal with parents, so we should not presume that there is no father just because only the mother is mentioned. This is a rule in the inheritance verses which we clearly see when they deal with children and only mention the female/s share (verse 411).

Is your understanding of 411 that siblings may inherit in the presence of parents (and absence of children),

No. My understanding is that siblings of the deceased do not inherit in the presence of his/her children. The only heirs that inherit with children of the deceased are the parents and the spouse of the deceased.

Siblings aren't mentioned in the section on children, but neither are spouses nor are parents.

Parents are mentioned in the section of the children (411), and their share is mentioned in both cases of presence or absence of children. Spouses are mentioned in the section about spouses in their share is also determined by presence or absence of children. You can never find share of siblings dependent on "presence" of children, because siblings inherit only in absence of children.

Siblings' shares from kalaalah are in 412 for presence of children and 4176 for absence of children.

I do not agree. Share of kalala siblings is mentioned in case of presence of spouse in (412) which is the part dedicated to spouses, and in case they are the sole heirs; i. e absence of spouse in 4176. In 4176, nobody is mentioned other than siblings, so, and their share is not dependent on anything other than their number, so let's not presume that other heirs exist here, otherwise their existance should affect the siblings' share.

What does "his parents inherited him" mean? Does it not mean a special case where the father is present, i.e. the mentioning of the mother's share does not necessarily mean that the father is present?

I believe that the verses of inheritance do not deal with cases of only one parent nor with only one gender of siblings/children. Whenever a female is mentioned, the male counterpart is presumed exists.

Union

Peace all,
I see no reason for kalaalah to mean "spouseless".

Salam Nwryn . Then please distribute

Wife + Sister

Also mention your supporting verse...

Union

Salaam Nooreen

However, a non kalala may have siblings who will inherit with the deceased parents (verse 411).

Salam Samia . Then please distribute

wife+ mother+ father+ sister+ brother

Samia

Salam Samia . Then please distribute

wife+ mother+ father+ sister+ brother

Wife 25% / In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child;

Mother 1/3 of the remaining 1/3 of 75% = 25%
Father 2/3 of the remaining = 2/3 of 75% = 50% (parents have equal shares only in presence of children; otherwise, it's 12 proportion)
Total 100%.

Siblings get nothing. They only inherit in either absence of spouse (411) or absence of parents (case of kelala) 412

Union

..Siblings get nothing. They only inherit in either absence of spouse (411) or absence of parents (case of kelala) 412

Dear Samia , Salam . Are you not contradicting your own verdict

Kalala does not have children nor parents, but siblings.
4176 is a special case of kalala where there is no spouse (because a kalala can have a spouse).
However, a non kalala may have siblings who will inherit with the deceased parents (verse 411).

I gave you a non-Kalala case still you cancelled siblings' share ...

Samia

Dear Samia , Salam . Are you not contradicting your own verdict

I gave you a non-Kalala case still you cancelled siblings' share ...

This is not a kelala case. You are stating existance of parents. My definition of kelala is a person who does not have parents nor children.

Union

This is not a kelala case. You are stating existance of parents. My definition of kelala is a person who does not have parents nor children.

That is what exactly I am saying . You said first that siblings inherit with parents (which is a non-Kalala case) but when I gave that non-Kelala case you curtailed siblings .

Kalala does not have children nor parents, but siblings.

4176 is a special case of kalala where there is no spouse (because a kalala can have a spouse).

However, a non kalala may have siblings who will inherit with the deceased parents (verse 411).

I don't know if I misunderstood you . In that case I need help from others please ...

Samia

I don't know if I misunderstood you .

I believe so...

Siblings get nothing. They only inherit in either absence of spouse (411) or absence of parents (case of kelala) 412

i.e if both the parent/s and the spouse exist, siblings do not inherit.

unknownuser

Peace Samia,

Wife 25% / In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child;

Mother 1/3 of the remaining 1/3 of 75% = 25%
Father 2/3 of the remaining = 2/3 of 75% = 50% (parents have equal shares only in presence of children; otherwise, it's 12 proportion)
Total 100%.

Siblings get nothing. They only inherit in either absence of spouse (411) or absence of parents (case of kelala) 412

The above is correct and helpful to understand the mother's share is actually not fixed and ratio 12 is consistent

mother, father
1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 father

wife, parents
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/33/4 = 1/4 mother + 2/33/4 = 1/2 father or 12 ratio when no child)

husband, parents
1 ? 1/2 husband = 1/2 parents (1/31/2 = 1/6 mother + 2/31/2 = 1/3 father or 12 ratio when no child)

Please clarify...

IF parents no spouse ? do siblings inherit?
mother, father, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)

IF spouse no parents ? do siblings inherit?
husband, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)

Peace mmouhammad,

Verse 411 but if has siblings then to mother is 1/6 - what do you understand from this reduction of mother's share from 1/3 when has no children to 1/6 when has siblings?.

We both agree that verse 412 is Kalalah with children, that is spouse inherits first, then no parents therefore God allocates to siblings an equal amount to what would have been parents share if they were alive, the 1/3. Compare it to siblings' case in verse 411 read with fresh mind after answering why reducing mother's share 1/6 when deceased has siblings.

You may have a point although still don't agree with 411 being allocations for siblings which I realized after looking at Samia's calculation above keeps parent ratio always at 12 without child else if children parents share equally at 1/6 each.

and to his parents, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
so if ikhwatun were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

Fa-in (ELSE IF) separate case parents inheritors; mother share 1/3 of amount allocated to parents.

mother, father
1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 father

wife, parents
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/33/4 = 1/4 mother + 2/33/4 = 1/2 father or 12 ratio when no child)

wife, father (no child father?s share is variable)
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 father

wife, mother (no child, no father, no brethren, mother?s share is variable)
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 mother

husband, parents
1 ? 1/2 husband = 1/2 parents (1/31/2 = 1/6 mother + 2/31/2 = 1/3 father or 12 ratio when no child)

husband, father (no child father?s share is variable)
1 ? 1/2 husband = 1/2 father

husband, mother (no father/brethren mother's share is variable)
1 ? 1/2 husband = 1/2 mother

Fa-in (ELSE IF) ikhwatun mother share 1/6 consistent when siblings allowed with children (i.e. case of Kalala with child 412)?

mother, children, siblings (412)
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 siblings max = 1/2 children

mother, siblings (4176)
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblings

By the way, sibling/siblings mean sister or brother 1 to n regardless of gender. The term ikhwatun in Arabic is used when gender and number of sibling are unknown.

The conditions of Verse 411 are applicable in all cases where gender and number of inheritors are not specified. Have you not seen God uses them in both Kalalah verses?

I believe ikhwatun/brethren needs at least one male which he can be accompanied by any number of females/sisters. The same with - men/rijalan/mankind can refer to a male child in the company of many females as in 4176 'Ikhwatan Rijlan Wa Nis'an and not to a single woman or group of women/nisaan although have not researched every verse to see if this is consistently the case.

Moreover, aren't deceased siblings mean children to his parents when inheriting with them, so he directs you God in your CHILDREN, is applicable to the inheriting parents and their children "deceased siblings"

Well the verse clearly directs shares to the living children not to ?deceased siblings??

he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two females

Salaam Noreen,

OK. Why does it say "he inherits her" rather than "he inherits him" in 4176?

4176 Yastaftnaka Quli Allhu Yuftkum F Al-Kallati 'Ini Amru'uun Halaka Laysa Lahu Waladun Wa Lahu'Ukhtun Falah Nifu M Taraka Wa Huwa Yarithuh 'In Lam Yakun Lah Waladun Fa'in KnatAthnatayni Falahum Ath-Thuluthni Mimm Taraka Wa 'In Kn 'Ikhwatan Rijlan Wa Nis'an Falildhdhakari Mithlu a??i Al-'Unthayayni Yubayyinu Allhu Lakum 'An Taill Wa Allhu Bikulli Shay'in `Almun

Good question. Actually you one of the few that catches everything; very logical for a female? ;D

Have to look into it and few other things. We assume most of the words have been translated or understood correctly and I?ve come to the conclusion all translations and commentaries are mostly awful parroting someone?s opinions from long ago and constantly need to go back examine every word cross-reference for errors and contradictions.

You know the "waladun" in 411, is it singular? If so, then why does it not say "a brother" instead of "ikhwatun", if the statement is about having at least one brother?

Waladun can be singular or plural and likewise Ikhwatun can mean at least one brother or brother and 10 sisters.

Children only inherit from the father? o

Please post in complete sentences so we know what is shocking?lol

Peace

Samia

Please clarify...

IF parents no spouse ? do siblings inherit?
mother, father, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)

IF spouse no parents ? do siblings inherit?
husband, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)

Provided no children exist
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

Siblings of kelala (parentless - childless) always inherit. Siblings of non kelala inherit only in absence of both children and spouse.

mmouhammad

Peace Eid,

Your example wife, parents

1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/33/4 = 1/4 mother + 2/33/4 = 1/2 father or 12 ratio when no child)

So you are saying in this case if deceased has siblings, the only purpose their presence will serve is to reduce mothers share to 1/6 thus increasing father's share.
Has siblings; 1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/6*3/4 = 1/8 mother + (1/6+ 2/3)*3/4 = 5/8 father or 15 ratio

Your examples of Kalalah

Fa-in (ELSE IF) ikhwatun mother share 1/6 consistent when siblings allowed with children (i.e. case of Kalalah with child 412)?

mother, children, siblings (412)
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 siblings max = 1/2 children

So here you are giving mother and siblings 1/2; this portion is more than what would both parents get inheriting with children which is 1/3.

Verse 411 and if he has no children so to his mother is 1/3 but if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6.
The logic makes the "has no children" the case for asking about presence of siblings, simply because when parents inherit with has children, siblings are not considered.

If has children then - if this statement is true the case ends after completing then clause
To his parents each is 1/6 - mother alone or father alone has no affect on the if condition.
Else if has no children then
If has sibling then
To his mother is 1/6
Else
To his mother is 1/3
End if
End if

If you use the following if then else if cases, the sibling else if case will never be reached because one of the first 2 cases will always be true.

If has children then
To his parents each is 1/6
Else If has no children then
To his mother is 1/3
Else If has siblings then - this case will never be reached
To his mother is 1/6
End If

Your example
mother, siblings (4176)
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblings

What if mother + sister; under 4176 and has one sister to her is 1/2. So mother 1/6 and sister 1/2. The question is who gets the remainder, is it the mother or is it the sister and why?

The following Questions are for you to consider
Is mother alone a parent or not?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and to his parents each is 1/6 if has children?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and if has no children and being inherited by his parents then to mother is 1/3?
Is it not that part of 411 "but if has siblings then to his mother is 1/6" suggests siblings inherits with parents when deceased has no children?
Doesn't verse 411 meet the 2 conditions, has no children and has siblings?

Union

Provided no children exist
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

But how much ?

Siblings of kelala (parentless - childless) always inherit. Siblings of non kelala inherit only in absence of both children and spouse.

Then how you reconcile the contradiction here

Sister will inhereit 1/6 (412)

Sister will inherit 1/2 (4176)

Both are under Kalala condition .There should be an index of difference between the two Kalala conditions .

Thanks.

Samia

But how much ?

How much
411
A- Mother 1/6; father 1/3; siblings get the rest. Mother no father father's share if he was alive goes to the mother, so the mother gets 1/2 and 1/2 goes to the siblings.
B- One sibling 1/6; more they share 1/3; spouse gets the rest

Then how you reconcile the contradiction here

Sister will inhereit 1/6 (412)

Sister will inherit 1/2 (4176)

Both are under Kalala condition .There should be an index of difference between the two Kalala conditions .

Thanks.

Sister in 412 is a sister of kelala who has a spouse. Since spouse of kelala's share is not defined, the spouse gets the rest.
Sister in 4176 is of a kelala who does not have a spouse. If she is the sole heir she gets all. The half is presuming existance of counterpart male/s.

A-We should remember that whenever a female is mentioned, a male counterpart is presumed. No guidance on same gender since it's obvious. No verse on a sole heir beause it's obvious too we cannot give any share to any relative not entitled to the inheritance and thus not mentioned. For example verse 4176 is for siblings only. (his siste gets half) presumes existance of at least one brother. If he has only a sister, she gets the whole inheritance since no eligible heir exists. Shares of siblings in 4176 follow the formulae for children.

B-Another point is that, if the allotted shares are less than the whole, the remainder goes back to the nearest relative.

Relatives according to nearness to the deceased
1st- Children
2nd- Parents
3rd- Spouse
4th- Siblings

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

Provided no children exist
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

Siblings of kelala (parentless - childless) always inherit. Siblings of non kelala inherit only in absence of both children and spouse.

Please distribute according to Qur'an...

1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala

parents, sister = ?
mother, sister = ?

father, brother = ?
father, brother, sister = ?

2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

wife, brother 1 - 1/4 wife - 1/6 brother = 7/12 unallocated
husband, brother 1 - 1/2 husband - 1/6 brother = 1/3 unallocated

Lastly, no spouse or parents with whom do Al-Kallati's sister 1/2 or two sisters 2/3 share with?

4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left,
and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.

Samia

This is a summary of my understanding of the inheritance verses.

411 Non kelala 1st degree heirs Children
Shares of children of mixed gender. The formula for distribution is dependent on the distribution of gender
1m 2m 3m 4m

1f 11 11 11 11

2f 12 11 12 12

3f 21 21 11 21

4f 21 12 21 11 (copied from this post by Nun de plume http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16179.msg169498#msg16949.

Children's share according to the verse is not decided. The get the remainder after the parents and the spouse get their share.

411 Parents 2nd degree heirs
Share according to the whole lot is decided in three cases

there are children
-there are no children and no one else
-there are no children but there are siblings.

Verse 412 Spouses 3rd degree heirs
Two cases
A Non Kelala in presence and absence of children
B Kelala case No children. Share of spouse is not determined. Siblings share is determined Spouse gets the rest.

Verse 4176 Siblings 4th degree heirs
Case of kelala without spouse siblings inherit all, distributed among them according to the distribution of gender (same formula for children).

unknownuser

Peace mmouhammad,

Your example wife, parents

1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/33/4 = 1/4 mother + 2/33/4 = 1/2 father or 12 ratio when no child)

So you are saying in this case if deceased has siblings, the only purpose their presence will serve is to reduce mothers share to 1/6 thus increasing father's share.

Not really, with or without siblings mother to father ratio is 12 in all cases except with children each 1/6.

mother, father
1 - 1/3 mother = 2/3 father

wife, mother, father
1 - 1/4 = 3/4 parents at 12 ratio (1/4 mother + 1/2 father)

husband, mother, father
1 - 1/2 husband = 1/2 parents at 12 ratio (1/6 mother + 1/3 father)

Has siblings; 1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/6*3/4 = 1/8 mother + (1/6+ 2/3)*3/4 = 5/8 father or 15 ratio

Never comes in play; with siblings and father/spouse, siblings get bounced (not a Kalala case)

Why did multiple
Your examples of Kalalah

Fa-in (ELSE IF) ikhwatun mother share 1/6 consistent when siblings allowed with children (i.e. case of Kalalah with child 412)?

mother, children, siblings (412)
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 siblings max = 1/2 children

So here you are giving mother and siblings 1/2; this portion is more than what would both parents get inheriting with children which is 1/3.

Different case nothing to do when both parents are alive -- following instructions.

Verse 411 and if he has no children so to his mother is 1/3 but if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6.
The logic makes the "has no children" the case for asking about presence of siblings, simply because when parents inherit with has children, siblings are not considered.

If has children then - if this statement is true the case ends after completing then clause
To his parents each is 1/6 - mother alone or father alone has no affect on the if condition.
Else if has no children then
If has sibling then
To his mother is 1/6
Else
To his mother is 1/3
End if
End if

If you use the following if then else if cases, the sibling else if case will never be reached because one of the first 2 cases will always be true.

Please post exact verse; logic is straight forward, we can program online calculator later perhaps...lol

411...so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

The last part (fa-in) is separate statement with/without children.

If has children then
To his parents each is 1/6
Else If has no children then
To his mother is 1/3
Else If has siblings then - this case will never be reached
To his mother is 1/6
End If

Programming error.

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child,
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

IF has children THEN
To his parents each is 1/6
ELSE IF has no children AND his parents inherited him THEN
To his mother is 1/3
ELSE IF has siblings THEN
To his mother is 1/6
END IF

Your example
mother, siblings (4176)
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblings

What if mother + sister; under 4176 and has one sister to her is 1/2. So mother 1/6 and sister 1/2. The question is who gets the remainder, is it the mother or is it the sister and why?

mother + sister {no children, no father, no ikhwatun/brethren thus mother share is variable)

1 - 1/2 sister (4176 Kalala no child) = 1/2 mother

My earlier post...I believe ikhwatun/brethren needs at least one male which he can be accompanied by any number of females/sisters. The same with - men/rijalan/mankind can refer to a male child in the company of many females as in 4176 'Ikhwatan Rijlan Wa Nis'an and not to a single woman or group of women/nisaan.

The following Questions are for you to consider
Is mother alone a parent or not?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and to his parents each is 1/6 if has children?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and if has no children and being inherited by his parents then to mother is 1/3?
Is it not that part of 411 "but if has siblings then to his mother is 1/6" suggests siblings inherits with parents when deceased has no children?
Doesn't verse 411 meet the 2 conditions, has no children and has siblings?

I've been considering since start of this thread; see above and examples posted to Samia, especially the case of father and any sibling combination.

Peace

Samia

Salaam Samia,

Please distribute according to Qur'an...

1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala

parents, sister = ?
mother, sister = ?

father, brother = ?
father, brother, sister = ?

Father 1/3; mother 1/6; sister 1/2 (the remainder, since her share was not determined)
Mother 1/6; sister 5/6 (same reason above).

Father 1/3 (2/6); brother gets the rest
Father 1/3, brother and sister get the rest shared equally between them.

2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

wife, brother 1 - 1/4 wife - 1/6 brother = 7/12 unallocated
husband, brother 1 - 1/2 husband - 1/6 brother = 1/3 unallocated

Share of spouse of kelala is not determined in this verse, but the share of siblings is.
The brother gets 1/6; spouse gets the remainder (5/6).
Brother gets 1/6; husband gets the remainder (5/6).

Lastly, no spouse or parents with whom do Al-Kallati's sister 1/2 or two sisters 2/3 share with?

As long as there are no legitmate heirs alive, all the inheritance should go to the existing heir. I believe that whenever a female is mentioned, a counter male is presumed existing.

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

Father 1/3; mother 1/6; sister 1/2 (the remainder, since her share was not determined)
Mother 1/6; sister 5/6 (same reason above).

Her share was determined 412 & 4176 and with a father; she gets nothing.

Father 1/3 (2/6); brother gets the rest
Father 1/3, brother and sister get the rest shared equally between them.

I don't see that anywhere in Qur'an, sounds like a ruling by Samia...lol

Share of spouse of kelala is not determined in this verse, but the share of siblings is.
The brother gets 1/6; spouse gets the remainder (5/6).
Brother gets 1/6; husband gets the remainder (5/6).

The main reason this thread was started.

As long as there are no legitmate heirs alive, all the inheritance should go to the existing heir. I believe that whenever a female is mentioned, a counter male is presumed existing.

There is only the mother left as a possibility.

Verse 4176 Siblings 4th degree heirs
Case of kelala without spouse siblings inherit all, distributed among them according to the distribution of gender (same formula for children).

Does not work as with the children; key difference being cannot have two cases with two females. The women 1/2 or 2/3 are alone have to share with someone that being the mother.

1 sister, mother 1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother
2+ sisters, mother 1 - 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother

4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left,
and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.

Peace

Samia

Salam Eid

We disagree on two points

Definition of kelala My understanding is kelala is parentless and childless.
You do not see father when only mother is mentioned. I say this is the rule in the inheritance verses once children are mentioned, it's presumed males and females ahve shares, even when only the female is mentioned. Same with parnts once parents are mentioned, it's presumed both of them have shares, even if it's the mother alone that's mentioned.