Quran inheritance mistake
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Salam Samia . Then please distribute
wife+ mother+ father+ sister+ brother
Wife 25% / In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child;
Mother 1/3 of the remaining 1/3 of 75% = 25%
Father 2/3 of the remaining = 2/3 of 75% = 50% (parents have equal shares only in presence of children; otherwise, it's 12 proportion)
Total 100%.Siblings get nothing. They only inherit in either absence of spouse (411) or absence of parents (case of kelala) 412
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..Siblings get nothing. They only inherit in either absence of spouse (411) or absence of parents (case of kelala) 412
Dear Samia , Salam . Are you not contradicting your own verdict
Kalala does not have children nor parents, but siblings.
4176 is a special case of kalala where there is no spouse (because a kalala can have a spouse).
However, a non kalala may have siblings who will inherit with the deceased parents (verse 411).I gave you a non-Kalala case still you cancelled siblings' share ...
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Dear Samia , Salam . Are you not contradicting your own verdict
I gave you a non-Kalala case still you cancelled siblings' share ...
This is not a kelala case. You are stating existance of parents. My definition of kelala is a person who does not have parents nor children.
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This is not a kelala case. You are stating existance of parents. My definition of kelala is a person who does not have parents nor children.
That is what exactly I am saying . You said first that siblings inherit with parents (which is a non-Kalala case) but when I gave that non-Kelala case you curtailed siblings .
Kalala does not have children nor parents, but siblings.
4176 is a special case of kalala where there is no spouse (because a kalala can have a spouse).
However, a non kalala may have siblings who will inherit with the deceased parents (verse 411).
I don't know if I misunderstood you . In that case I need help from others please ...
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Peace Samia,
Wife 25% / In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child;
Mother 1/3 of the remaining 1/3 of 75% = 25%
Father 2/3 of the remaining = 2/3 of 75% = 50% (parents have equal shares only in presence of children; otherwise, it's 12 proportion)
Total 100%.Siblings get nothing. They only inherit in either absence of spouse (411) or absence of parents (case of kelala) 412
The above is correct and helpful to understand the mother's share is actually not fixed and ratio 12 is consistent
mother, father
1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 fatherwife, parents
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/33/4 = 1/4 mother + 2/33/4 = 1/2 father or 12 ratio when no child)husband, parents
1 ? 1/2 husband = 1/2 parents (1/31/2 = 1/6 mother + 2/31/2 = 1/3 father or 12 ratio when no child)Please clarify...
IF parents no spouse ? do siblings inherit?
mother, father, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)IF spouse no parents ? do siblings inherit?
husband, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)Peace mmouhammad,
Verse 411 but if has siblings then to mother is 1/6 - what do you understand from this reduction of mother's share from 1/3 when has no children to 1/6 when has siblings?.
We both agree that verse 412 is Kalalah with children, that is spouse inherits first, then no parents therefore God allocates to siblings an equal amount to what would have been parents share if they were alive, the 1/3. Compare it to siblings' case in verse 411 read with fresh mind after answering why reducing mother's share 1/6 when deceased has siblings.
You may have a point although still don't agree with 411 being allocations for siblings which I realized after looking at Samia's calculation above keeps parent ratio always at 12 without child else if children parents share equally at 1/6 each.
and to his parents, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
so if ikhwatun were for him, so to his mother the 1/6Fa-in (ELSE IF) separate case parents inheritors; mother share 1/3 of amount allocated to parents.
mother, father
1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 fatherwife, parents
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/33/4 = 1/4 mother + 2/33/4 = 1/2 father or 12 ratio when no child)wife, father (no child father?s share is variable)
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 fatherwife, mother (no child, no father, no brethren, mother?s share is variable)
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 motherhusband, parents
1 ? 1/2 husband = 1/2 parents (1/31/2 = 1/6 mother + 2/31/2 = 1/3 father or 12 ratio when no child)husband, father (no child father?s share is variable)
1 ? 1/2 husband = 1/2 fatherhusband, mother (no father/brethren mother's share is variable)
1 ? 1/2 husband = 1/2 motherFa-in (ELSE IF) ikhwatun mother share 1/6 consistent when siblings allowed with children (i.e. case of Kalala with child 412)?
mother, children, siblings (412)
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 siblings max = 1/2 childrenmother, siblings (4176)
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblingsBy the way, sibling/siblings mean sister or brother 1 to n regardless of gender. The term ikhwatun in Arabic is used when gender and number of sibling are unknown.
The conditions of Verse 411 are applicable in all cases where gender and number of inheritors are not specified. Have you not seen God uses them in both Kalalah verses?
I believe ikhwatun/brethren needs at least one male which he can be accompanied by any number of females/sisters. The same with - men/rijalan/mankind can refer to a male child in the company of many females as in 4176 'Ikhwatan Rijlan Wa Nis'an and not to a single woman or group of women/nisaan although have not researched every verse to see if this is consistently the case.
Moreover, aren't deceased siblings mean children to his parents when inheriting with them, so he directs you God in your CHILDREN, is applicable to the inheriting parents and their children "deceased siblings"
Well the verse clearly directs shares to the living children not to ?deceased siblings??
he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two femalesSalaam Noreen,
OK. Why does it say "he inherits her" rather than "he inherits him" in 4176?
4176 Yastaftnaka Quli Allhu Yuftkum F Al-Kallati 'Ini Amru'uun Halaka Laysa Lahu Waladun Wa Lahu'Ukhtun Falah Nifu M Taraka Wa Huwa Yarithuh 'In Lam Yakun Lah Waladun Fa'in KnatAthnatayni Falahum Ath-Thuluthni Mimm Taraka Wa 'In Kn 'Ikhwatan Rijlan Wa Nis'an Falildhdhakari Mithlu a??i Al-'Unthayayni Yubayyinu Allhu Lakum 'An Taill Wa Allhu Bikulli Shay'in `Almun
Good question. Actually you one of the few that catches everything; very logical for a female? ;D
Have to look into it and few other things. We assume most of the words have been translated or understood correctly and I?ve come to the conclusion all translations and commentaries are mostly awful parroting someone?s opinions from long ago and constantly need to go back examine every word cross-reference for errors and contradictions.
You know the "waladun" in 411, is it singular? If so, then why does it not say "a brother" instead of "ikhwatun", if the statement is about having at least one brother?
Waladun can be singular or plural and likewise Ikhwatun can mean at least one brother or brother and 10 sisters.
Children only inherit from the father? o
Please post in complete sentences so we know what is shocking?lol
Peace
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Please clarify...
IF parents no spouse ? do siblings inherit?
mother, father, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)IF spouse no parents ? do siblings inherit?
husband, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)Provided no children exist
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelalaSiblings of kelala (parentless - childless) always inherit. Siblings of non kelala inherit only in absence of both children and spouse.
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Peace Eid,
Your example wife, parents
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/33/4 = 1/4 mother + 2/33/4 = 1/2 father or 12 ratio when no child)
So you are saying in this case if deceased has siblings, the only purpose their presence will serve is to reduce mothers share to 1/6 thus increasing father's share.
Has siblings; 1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/6*3/4 = 1/8 mother + (1/6+ 2/3)*3/4 = 5/8 father or 15 ratio
Your examples of Kalalah
Fa-in (ELSE IF) ikhwatun mother share 1/6 consistent when siblings allowed with children (i.e. case of Kalalah with child 412)?
mother, children, siblings (412)
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 siblings max = 1/2 children
So here you are giving mother and siblings 1/2; this portion is more than what would both parents get inheriting with children which is 1/3.
Verse 411 and if he has no children so to his mother is 1/3 but if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6.
The logic makes the "has no children" the case for asking about presence of siblings, simply because when parents inherit with has children, siblings are not considered.If has children then - if this statement is true the case ends after completing then clause
To his parents each is 1/6 - mother alone or father alone has no affect on the if condition.
Else if has no children then
If has sibling then
To his mother is 1/6
Else
To his mother is 1/3
End if
End ifIf you use the following if then else if cases, the sibling else if case will never be reached because one of the first 2 cases will always be true.
If has children then
To his parents each is 1/6
Else If has no children then
To his mother is 1/3
Else If has siblings then - this case will never be reached
To his mother is 1/6
End IfYour example
mother, siblings (4176)
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblingsWhat if mother + sister; under 4176 and has one sister to her is 1/2. So mother 1/6 and sister 1/2. The question is who gets the remainder, is it the mother or is it the sister and why?
The following Questions are for you to consider
Is mother alone a parent or not?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and to his parents each is 1/6 if has children?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and if has no children and being inherited by his parents then to mother is 1/3?
Is it not that part of 411 "but if has siblings then to his mother is 1/6" suggests siblings inherits with parents when deceased has no children?
Doesn't verse 411 meet the 2 conditions, has no children and has siblings? -
Provided no children exist
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelalaBut how much ?
Siblings of kelala (parentless - childless) always inherit. Siblings of non kelala inherit only in absence of both children and spouse.
Then how you reconcile the contradiction here
Sister will inhereit 1/6 (412)
Sister will inherit 1/2 (4176)
Both are under Kalala condition .There should be an index of difference between the two Kalala conditions .
Thanks.
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But how much ?
How much
411
A- Mother 1/6; father 1/3; siblings get the rest. Mother no father father's share if he was alive goes to the mother, so the mother gets 1/2 and 1/2 goes to the siblings.
B- One sibling 1/6; more they share 1/3; spouse gets the restThen how you reconcile the contradiction here
Sister will inhereit 1/6 (412)
Sister will inherit 1/2 (4176)
Both are under Kalala condition .There should be an index of difference between the two Kalala conditions .
Thanks.
Sister in 412 is a sister of kelala who has a spouse. Since spouse of kelala's share is not defined, the spouse gets the rest.
Sister in 4176 is of a kelala who does not have a spouse. If she is the sole heir she gets all. The half is presuming existance of counterpart male/s.A-We should remember that whenever a female is mentioned, a male counterpart is presumed. No guidance on same gender since it's obvious. No verse on a sole heir beause it's obvious too we cannot give any share to any relative not entitled to the inheritance and thus not mentioned. For example verse 4176 is for siblings only. (his siste gets half) presumes existance of at least one brother. If he has only a sister, she gets the whole inheritance since no eligible heir exists. Shares of siblings in 4176 follow the formulae for children.
B-Another point is that, if the allotted shares are less than the whole, the remainder goes back to the nearest relative.
Relatives according to nearness to the deceased
1st- Children
2nd- Parents
3rd- Spouse
4th- Siblings -
Salaam Samia,
Provided no children exist
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelalaSiblings of kelala (parentless - childless) always inherit. Siblings of non kelala inherit only in absence of both children and spouse.
Please distribute according to Qur'an...
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
parents, sister = ?
mother, sister = ?father, brother = ?
father, brother, sister = ?2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala
wife, brother 1 - 1/4 wife - 1/6 brother = 7/12 unallocated
husband, brother 1 - 1/2 husband - 1/6 brother = 1/3 unallocatedLastly, no spouse or parents with whom do Al-Kallati's sister 1/2 or two sisters 2/3 share with?
4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left,
and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable. -
This is a summary of my understanding of the inheritance verses.
411 Non kelala 1st degree heirs Children
Shares of children of mixed gender. The formula for distribution is dependent on the distribution of gender
1m 2m 3m 4m1f 11 11 11 11
2f 12 11 12 12
3f 21 21 11 21
4f 21 12 21 11 (copied from this post by Nun de plume http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16179.msg169498#msg16949.
Children's share according to the verse is not decided. The get the remainder after the parents and the spouse get their share.
411 Parents 2nd degree heirs
Share according to the whole lot is decided in three cases- there are children
-there are no children and no one else
-there are no children but there are siblings.
Verse 412 Spouses 3rd degree heirs
Two cases
A Non Kelala in presence and absence of children
B Kelala case No children. Share of spouse is not determined. Siblings share is determined Spouse gets the rest.Verse 4176 Siblings 4th degree heirs
Case of kelala without spouse siblings inherit all, distributed among them according to the distribution of gender (same formula for children). - there are children
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Peace mmouhammad,
Your example wife, parents
1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/33/4 = 1/4 mother + 2/33/4 = 1/2 father or 12 ratio when no child)
So you are saying in this case if deceased has siblings, the only purpose their presence will serve is to reduce mothers share to 1/6 thus increasing father's share.
Not really, with or without siblings mother to father ratio is 12 in all cases except with children each 1/6.
mother, father
1 - 1/3 mother = 2/3 fatherwife, mother, father
1 - 1/4 = 3/4 parents at 12 ratio (1/4 mother + 1/2 father)husband, mother, father
1 - 1/2 husband = 1/2 parents at 12 ratio (1/6 mother + 1/3 father)Has siblings; 1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/6*3/4 = 1/8 mother + (1/6+ 2/3)*3/4 = 5/8 father or 15 ratio
Never comes in play; with siblings and father/spouse, siblings get bounced (not a Kalala case)
Why did multiple
Your examples of KalalahFa-in (ELSE IF) ikhwatun mother share 1/6 consistent when siblings allowed with children (i.e. case of Kalalah with child 412)?
mother, children, siblings (412)
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 siblings max = 1/2 children
So here you are giving mother and siblings 1/2; this portion is more than what would both parents get inheriting with children which is 1/3.
Different case nothing to do when both parents are alive -- following instructions.
Verse 411 and if he has no children so to his mother is 1/3 but if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6.
The logic makes the "has no children" the case for asking about presence of siblings, simply because when parents inherit with has children, siblings are not considered.If has children then - if this statement is true the case ends after completing then clause
To his parents each is 1/6 - mother alone or father alone has no affect on the if condition.
Else if has no children then
If has sibling then
To his mother is 1/6
Else
To his mother is 1/3
End if
End ifIf you use the following if then else if cases, the sibling else if case will never be reached because one of the first 2 cases will always be true.
Please post exact verse; logic is straight forward, we can program online calculator later perhaps...lol
411...so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6
The last part (fa-in) is separate statement with/without children.
If has children then
To his parents each is 1/6
Else If has no children then
To his mother is 1/3
Else If has siblings then - this case will never be reached
To his mother is 1/6
End IfProgramming error.
411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child,
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6IF has children THEN
To his parents each is 1/6
ELSE IF has no children AND his parents inherited him THEN
To his mother is 1/3
ELSE IF has siblings THEN
To his mother is 1/6
END IFYour example
mother, siblings (4176)
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblingsWhat if mother + sister; under 4176 and has one sister to her is 1/2. So mother 1/6 and sister 1/2. The question is who gets the remainder, is it the mother or is it the sister and why?
mother + sister {no children, no father, no ikhwatun/brethren thus mother share is variable)
1 - 1/2 sister (4176 Kalala no child) = 1/2 mother
My earlier post...I believe ikhwatun/brethren needs at least one male which he can be accompanied by any number of females/sisters. The same with - men/rijalan/mankind can refer to a male child in the company of many females as in 4176 'Ikhwatan Rijlan Wa Nis'an and not to a single woman or group of women/nisaan.
The following Questions are for you to consider
Is mother alone a parent or not?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and to his parents each is 1/6 if has children?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and if has no children and being inherited by his parents then to mother is 1/3?
Is it not that part of 411 "but if has siblings then to his mother is 1/6" suggests siblings inherits with parents when deceased has no children?
Doesn't verse 411 meet the 2 conditions, has no children and has siblings?I've been considering since start of this thread; see above and examples posted to Samia, especially the case of father and any sibling combination.
Peace
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Salaam Samia,
Please distribute according to Qur'an...
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
parents, sister = ?
mother, sister = ?father, brother = ?
father, brother, sister = ?Father 1/3; mother 1/6; sister 1/2 (the remainder, since her share was not determined)
Mother 1/6; sister 5/6 (same reason above).Father 1/3 (2/6); brother gets the rest
Father 1/3, brother and sister get the rest shared equally between them.2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala
wife, brother 1 - 1/4 wife - 1/6 brother = 7/12 unallocated
husband, brother 1 - 1/2 husband - 1/6 brother = 1/3 unallocatedShare of spouse of kelala is not determined in this verse, but the share of siblings is.
The brother gets 1/6; spouse gets the remainder (5/6).
Brother gets 1/6; husband gets the remainder (5/6).Lastly, no spouse or parents with whom do Al-Kallati's sister 1/2 or two sisters 2/3 share with?
As long as there are no legitmate heirs alive, all the inheritance should go to the existing heir. I believe that whenever a female is mentioned, a counter male is presumed existing.
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Salaam Samia,
Father 1/3; mother 1/6; sister 1/2 (the remainder, since her share was not determined)
Mother 1/6; sister 5/6 (same reason above).Her share was determined 412 & 4176 and with a father; she gets nothing.
Father 1/3 (2/6); brother gets the rest
Father 1/3, brother and sister get the rest shared equally between them.I don't see that anywhere in Qur'an, sounds like a ruling by Samia...lol
Share of spouse of kelala is not determined in this verse, but the share of siblings is.
The brother gets 1/6; spouse gets the remainder (5/6).
Brother gets 1/6; husband gets the remainder (5/6).The main reason this thread was started.
As long as there are no legitmate heirs alive, all the inheritance should go to the existing heir. I believe that whenever a female is mentioned, a counter male is presumed existing.
There is only the mother left as a possibility.
Verse 4176 Siblings 4th degree heirs
Case of kelala without spouse siblings inherit all, distributed among them according to the distribution of gender (same formula for children).Does not work as with the children; key difference being cannot have two cases with two females. The women 1/2 or 2/3 are alone have to share with someone that being the mother.
1 sister, mother 1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother
2+ sisters, mother 1 - 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left,
and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.Peace
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Salam Eid
We disagree on two points
- Definition of kelala My understanding is kelala is parentless and childless.
- You do not see father when only mother is mentioned. I say this is the rule in the inheritance verses once children are mentioned, it's presumed males and females ahve shares, even when only the female is mentioned. Same with parnts once parents are mentioned, it's presumed both of them have shares, even if it's the mother alone that's mentioned.
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How much
411
A- Mother 1/6; father 1/3; siblings get the rest. Mother no father father's share if he was alive goes to the mother, so the mother gets 1/2 and 1/2 goes to the siblings.Salam Samia .
Which Part of verse 411 , you are talking about
411 ?and to his parents each one of them one sixth of what is inherited if he has children. => not applicable
411 ?if he has siblings (Ikhwatun) then to his mother is one sixth. => not applicable .
Then what left for your justification of giving mother 1/6 from 411 ??
B- One sibling 1/6; more they share 1/3; spouse gets the rest
Instead of assuming what is the definition of Kalala first , you should search the evidence of distribution from the verses and only then you can reach to your decision .
412 For you is half of what your wives leave behind if they have no children?.
The above part is more logical and related to the problem . Hence, Husband should have ? .
412? but has a brother or sister, then to each one of them is one sixth,
Hence the sister will get 1/6 .
1-(?+1/6) =1/3 undistributed .
Sister in 412 is a sister of kelala who has a spouse. Since spouse of kelala's share is not defined, the spouse gets the rest.
Sister in 4176 is of a kelala who does not have a spouse. If she is the sole heir she gets all. The half is presuming existance of counterpart male/s.This is also a pre-determined decision . If you remove your biased understanding of Kalala , and as the case you are talking about siblings+spouse say, Sister + Wife , then more logical distribution will be
412 To them is one quarter of what you leave
behind if you have no child;..Hence wife =1/4
And sister =1/6 according to 412 Or ? according to 4176 . In both case it doesn?t add up to 01.
Instead why not use Almighty God?s hints to have a clue to differentiate between 1/6 or ? share of sister .
4176 They ask your opinion , say "God decrees in the man or woman being Kalala , if man/human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left,
Hence God?s wisdom is pulling us to the sate of ?no children? for Kalala to have his sister ? . Keeping the same logical observation in mind it will be more safe to think of sister?s share 1/6 incase of Kalala when ?with children? .
Also this conclusion will offer a 100% accurate distribution of share to related to it (add up to 01 , not less than or greater than 01 which happened to be found in your proposal )
A-We should remember that whenever a female is mentioned, a male counterpart is presumed. No guidance on same gender since it's obvious. No verse on a sole heir beause it's obvious too we cannot give any share to any relative not entitled to the inheritance and thus not mentioned. For example verse 4176 is for siblings only. (his siste gets half) presumes existance of at least one brother. If he has only a sister, she gets the whole inheritance since no eligible heir exists. Shares of siblings in 4176 follow the formulae for children.
B-Another point is that, if the allotted shares are less than the whole, the remainder goes back to the nearest relative.
Relatives according to nearness to the deceased
1st- Children
2nd- Parents
3rd- Spouse
4th- SiblingsA- Agree though should not be taken as hard and fast rule .
B- Disagree . Your way of understanding of Kelala time to time will leave some reminder but not the way Eid AbduAllah understood it . A 100% accurate distribution will not be greater than or smaller 01.Thanks.
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Salaam Samia,
Her share was determined 412 & 4176 and with a father; she gets nothing.
I don't see that anywhere in Qur'an, sounds like a ruling by Samia...lol
The main reason this thread was started.
There is only the mother left as a possibility.
Does not work as with the children; key difference being cannot have two cases with two females. The women 1/2 or 2/3 are alone have to share with someone that being the mother.
1 sister, mother 1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother
2+ sisters, mother 1 - 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left,
and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.Peace
Salam AbduAllah . So far I didn't see any disorder in your understanding of Kelala . If sister Samia could have brought practical examples for each of his theory as you did everytime , may be something different (if it really exists) could have been realized . I am in the position of such definition of Kelala where all the shares must add up to 01 .
Allah knows the best .
Thanks .