Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Ramzi,
You say ?You assume I hadn't read any of your posts and you rush to regurgitate your statement again. I had read all your posts and decided to ask you the simple question which you did not answer.?
This is my mistake and I am sorry about that.
You say ?What I am saying is that your definition lacks a starting point? What is your starting point for this 'year' you have defined in so many of your posts??
Starting point is irrelevant to me because in my reference frame it is independent religious duties. However, collectively we can agree on a starting point to deal with worldly matter. That is what Umar did. He did a good thing in my opinion. If you don?t like his start point then start your own calendar from the next new moon. After 12 moon cycles you will have a year. My fasting month of Ramadan is still the same in this new calendar. However, if you are analyzing this from another reference frame (e.g. solar based calendar) then you will run into issue of 11 days short per year and pose question like this ?The point is, based on your calender, 350 years from now, the time people will fast will depend on what that starting point was.? Please be consistent in your analysis.
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Peace truthseeker11,
Quote ?The changing of the seasons and the temperatures is due to the tilt of the Earth's axis, not its varying proximity to the sun.?
What a revelation. What took you so long to say it?
The perihelion distance is 91,445,000 miles and aphelion distance is 94,555,000. That is a difference of 3.11 million miles. It equates to about 5% more sunlight than NH summer. The interior land of Australian will have tremendous effect due the extra sun light.
By quoting average temperature you are not helping your buddy Ayman. He is talking about full moon of burning heat (single to a few days at most), not an average over many days.
According to data collected by the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) on NASA?s Aqua satellite Queensland, Australia, was the hottest place on Earth, with a temperature of 69.3 degrees C (157 degrees F). Please click the below link for details. The inland portion of Australia is very hot indeed.
http//earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=7149
Additional temperate data from different source
Marble Bar in Western Australia. For 161 consecutive days to 20 April 1924 the temperature in the town never dropped below 100?F (37.8?C).
However, the town of Cloncurry in northwest Queensland holds the record for the highest temperature in the shade ever recorded in Australia, at 53.1 ?C (127.5 ?F) on 16 January 1889.
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Peace Ayman,
Quote ?How do you know that using 1712? Please don't mindlessly copy and paste links and give us a straight answer or admit that you don't know this basic knowledge.?
Common sense and some measurement techniques is all you need to measure the 365.24xx cycle. The same techniques allowed us (human) to land spacecraft on comet. Do you get it?
Quote ?The word "month" is never mentioned in the great reading. The word "shahr" means "full-moon".?
See verse 936 - The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.
Quote ??..ALWAYS starts from the same exact position every single year and there is no shifting reference.?
Just show us how you fit subsequence 365.24xx cycle within your reference point without an error factor. You will become a famous man if you can do this.
It is not the length of the cycle I am questioning; it is the man made implementation of calendar using the said solar cycle. It is indeed a very hard problem. Don?t you get it, if the God wanted us to do this then he would have made the job easy for us. Just like the lunar calendar.
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Peace everyone,
The perihelion distance is 91,445,000 miles and aphelion distance is 94,555,000. That is a difference of 3.11 million miles. It equates to about 5% more sunlight than NH summer. The interior land of Australian will have tremendous effect due the extra sun light.
By quoting average temperature you are not helping your buddy Ayman. He is talking about full moon of burning heat (single to a few days at most), not an average over many days.
According to data collected by the Moderate Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) on NASA?s Aqua satellite Queensland, Australia, was the hottest place on Earth, with a temperature of 69.3 degrees C (157 degrees F). Please click the below link for details. The inland portion of Australia is very hot indeed.
http//earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=7149
Additional temperate data from different source
Marble Bar in Western Australia. For 161 consecutive days to 20 April 1924 the temperature in the town never dropped below 100?F (37.8?C).
However, the town of Cloncurry in northwest Queensland holds the record for the highest temperature in the shade ever recorded in Australia, at 53.1 ?C (127.5 ?F) on 16 January 1889.
Guest has lost all credibility. What a bunch of lies and deception from him. Unbelievable.
FROM HIS OWN REFERENCED ARTICLE
"Where is the hottest place on Earth? According to MODIS, the hottest place in 2004 and 2005 was the Lut desert of Iran, which reached 70.7 degrees C (159 degrees F). In 2003, Queensland, Australia, was the hottest place on Earth, with a temperature of 69.3 degrees C (157 degrees F)."
NOTE HOW HE HID THE BOLDED PART FROM OTHERS IN HIS POST.
Where is the Lut desert of Iran? NORTHERN HEMISPHERE
Some more references
- http//hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/MichaelLevin.shtml
From the above
"Between 1960 and 1966, the highest average annual mean temperature in Dallol, Ethiopia was recorded at 94 ?F"
Where is Ethiopia? NORTHERN HEMISPHERE
"The hottest recorded temperature ever on earth was in Libya on September 13, 1922, which was 58 ?C"
Where is Libya? NORTHERN HEMISPHERE
- http//www.gsfc.nasa.gov/scienceques2001/20020524.htm
From the above
"Even thought the Sun's ray are most direct and closest to being overhead in the sub tropics at noon near the time of the solstice, it takes a while for the land, oceans and atmosphere to heat up. The Earth is about 3% closer to the Sun in December than in June, but since there's so much more water in the Southern Hemisphere, things don't usually heat up as quickly and to the same degree as in the Northern Hemisphere."
"hottest temperature ever recorded anywhere on the globe (136 F at Al' Aziziyah, Libya in September of 1922) occurred well before global warming was a buzzword, and despite the recent series of warm years, globally, these records have not seriously threatened."
- http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weather_records
From the great reading
496 O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
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Peace
Starting point is irrelevant to me because in my reference frame it is independent religious duties. However, collectively we can agree on a starting point to deal with worldly matter. That is what Umar did. He did a good thing in my opinion. If you don?t like his start point then start your own calendar from the next new moon. After 12 moon cycles you will have a year. My fasting month of Ramadan is still the same in this new calendar. However, if you are analyzing this from another reference frame (e.g. solar based calendar) then you will run into issue of 11 days short per year and pose question like this ?The point is, based on your calender, 350 years from now, the time people will fast will depend on what that starting point was.? Please be consistent in your analysis.
You say a starting point is irrelevant. I would say it is very relevant. Let me put it in another way, who gave Umar authority to change the calander system? Did the count of the year begin with Hijra of the Prophet? Why? Was there a system used in the Prophets time? Why was it changed by Umar? To me its very arbitrary dates that have been selected based on specific historic events.
Some fact I found (correct me if I am wrong please)
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lunar calendar by 'Umar in 639 CE
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DEATH OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh), 632 CE
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7 years after the prophet had past away we change a system which is widely accepted by the muslims of the day.
Unfortunatly, many people of the day did not benefit from the free speech we have today. I wonder if they did, then questions might have been asked. But I bet they would have been squashed if they did question the system!?
The question still begs to be answered Why the need for change? Why did the Prophet not make this change before his death? Have we been mislead by the devil?
Peace
Hope
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Peace
Sorry its me again, just read this on a webpage
Forbidding Intercalary Months
In the ninth year after the Hijra, Allah revealed the prohibition of the intercalary month. This is expressed in the Qur'an (936-37)The number of months with Allah has been twelve months by Allah's ordinance since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Of these four are known as sacred; That is the straight usage, so do not wrong yourselves therein, and fight those who go astray.
This prohibition was repeated by prophet Muhammad during his last sermon on Mount Arafat which was delivered during his farewell pilgrimage to Mecca on 9 Dhu al-Hijja AH 10. The three successive holy months mentioned by prophet Muhammad are Dhu al-Qada, Dhu al-Hijja, and Muharram, thus excluding an intercalary month before Muharram. The single holy month is Rajab.
http//www.thinkersforum.org/The_Muslim_Lunar_Calendar_-_Overview.php
Can someone shed light on this? Is this true? If it is then many of our questions are answered.
Peace
Hope
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Dear guest ,
I am quoting one of my old posts , kindly go through it, I am sure it would help .
siki
handshake
! lets assume for a while that > "Aliens abduct you, and take you to planet X ;D . There you lose all track of earth time. One day they decide to dump you back. You splash down, manage to swim out to a small deserted island with no one around.
You wanted to keep track of time , and most probably this is how you ended up doing.
You remembered God's words in his book for keeping time, and hence started to count days with the help of sun rise and set. You counted 30 days but then your month started from the day you arrived back on the planet. The only way to synchronise it with the rest of the mankind was, to take refernce of the moon. So you reset your count and started counting months with the help of moon. To begin with, for a strange reason you chose the waxing cresent which followed the sun and was barely visible in the refracting light of the setting sun (By the way the wanning cresent is much more distinct, because it is at dawn, and is opposite to the rising sun) You counted "12" as per God's commandment, for a year and then restarted , but then your year was not synchronised with the rest of the world. This method started your year when you arrived back on the planet (plus up to 28 days)
Over a period of a few years you noticed, that in your count of 12, once there was a full Moon, which was so distinct in colour that you couldn't miss it, and hence you reset your year count with the help of this Orange full moon.
As you started to count the year from this bright marker , your month count automatically began to start with Full Moon, and so was every month from then on. Over a period of time it dawned on you that it was easy to keep track of this bright full moon, and what a fool you were when you kept the count with waxing cresent.
(because in certain months you missed it and ended up having a count of 29 or sometimes 30-31 days, and every other month you had overcast and hence had no idea weather to start recounting or not whereas the bright full moon could still be noticed even in cloudy days when it started to rise soon afer sun set)
I sincerly hope that you realize the difference.
peace
siki
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@ siki
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what of I landed in August? I would have to wait for nearly a year to re-synchronize my calendar/time.
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I'd ask others in the first place or browse the i-net.
Another point I would like to make the 'fullmoon of scorching heat advoctors' always attack the traditionalists' approach of measuring time/counting months, etc. which is the sighting of the new moon. There is no need and place for that in God's system. We already know the timings of future lunar months through calculation and not sighting. So the whole attacking of the sighting of the moon is OK, but it isnt a valid arguement against the lunar calendar approach/advocators.
Peace
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Peace hope4,
Quote ?who gave Umar authority to change the calander system??
This is a baseless accusation without any valid evidence. Produce your evidence if you speak the truth. If you are 100% certain that you are speaking the truth then invoke the curse of Allah by saying ? If I am lying make my life hell in this world and on the day of judgment I will voluntarily enter hell for ever, also give me cancer of the worst kind if I am a liar."
Umar could not have change the length of the lunar cycle. Therefore, he did not change timing system. He used the same timing system as prophet Muhammad did. The only thing he possibly did (w.r.t. timing) was to start the Muslim calendar from hijra. There is nothing wrong with this.
Quote ?Why was it changed by Umar??
Another baseless accusation. Should this be the behavior of a righteous person?
You have to think a moment and realize that fixing an initial point does not change the length of lunar cycle. Timing system will change if someone can change the length of lunar cycle.
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Peace Guest,
You say ?What I am saying is that your definition lacks a starting point? What is your starting point for this 'year' you have defined in so many of your posts??
Starting point is irrelevant to me because in my reference frame it is independent religious duties. However, collectively we can agree on a starting point to deal with worldly matter. That is what Umar did. He did a good thing in my opinion. If you don?t like his start point then start your own calendar from the next new moon. After 12 moon cycles you will have a year. My fasting month of Ramadan is still the same in this new calendar. However, if you are analyzing this from another reference frame (e.g. solar based calendar) then you will run into issue of 11 days short per year and pose question like this ?The point is, based on your calender, 350 years from now, the time people will fast will depend on what that starting point was.? Please be consistent in your analysis.
Your arbitrary starting point and the order of your months is what will determine when your arbitrary Ramadhan occurs. If today is the crescent moon and you start your new year today and you conjecture that Ramadhan is the 9th month in your calendar then your Ramadhan will be 9 lunar months from today. If you start your calendar the next creascent then it will be 10 lunar months from today. If you started your calendar last crescent moon then your Ramadhan would be 8 lunar months from today, etc.
Also, the arbitrary order of months in your calendar will determine when Ramadhan occurs. So if Ramadhan was your third month then you would fast three months from today and so on. So whether you like it or not, your lunar calendar is 100% arbitrary. I am sure that anyone with a little bit of intelligence can see this indisputable fact. So it doesn't help your credibility when you keep arguing about such indisputable fact. People are going to think that either you are wasting everyone's time by playing dumb or, well, you are not playing.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Guest,
Quote ?How do you know that using 1712? Please don't mindlessly copy and paste links and give us a straight answer or admit that you don't know this basic knowledge.?
Common sense and some measurement techniques is all you need to measure the 365.24xx cycle. The same techniques allowed us (human) to land spacecraft on comet. Do you get it?
No, I don't get it. Please excuse my ignorance and show us your incredible intelligence by telling us this commone sense and measurement techniques that allows you to know this using 1712.
Quote ?The word "month" is never mentioned in the great reading. The word "shahr" means "full-moon".?
See verse 936 - The count of months, as far as GOD is concerned, is twelve. This has been GOD's law, since the day He created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are sacred. This is the perfect religion; you shall not wrong your souls (by fighting) during the Sacred Months. However, you may declare all-out war against the idol worshipers (even during the Sacred Months), when they declare all-out war against you, and know that GOD is on the side of the righteous.Oc course the parts in underline and bold in your translation are contradictory.
See verse 936 - The count of full-moons, as far as the god is concerned, is twelve. This has been the god's law, since the day he created the heavens and the earth. Four of them are restricted. This is the worthy obligation; you shall not wrong your souls (by violating the restriction) therein and fight those who set partners like they fight you, and know that the god is on the side of the righteous.
Quote ??..ALWAYS starts from the same exact position every single year and there is no shifting reference.?
Just show us how you fit subsequence 365.24xx cycle within your reference point without an error factor. You will become a famous man if you can do this.
It is not the length of the cycle I am questioning; it is the man made implementation of calendar using the said solar cycle. It is indeed a very hard problem. Don?t you get it, if the God wanted us to do this then he would have made the job easy for us. Just like the lunar calendar.
You do it using the perfect system given to us by the god in 1712. You use the day and night as you are clearly told in 1712. The year is the interval between the longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night. This system is a self-adjusting system that doesn't require any adjustment. I guess I am now a famous person. )
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace truthseeker11,
Quote ?NOTE HOW HE HID THE BOLDED PART FROM OTHERS IN HIS POST.?
Do you really think before you provide a response? If I wanted to hide the bolder part then I wouldn?t have given you the reference. I was refuting your average temperature claim between LA and Australia. The temperature coded color of Australia nullifies your claim.
Don?t forget Ayman?s theory requires the hottest temperature coincide with the full-moon. Arbitrary hot day is of no use. This is another serious flaw with Ayman?s concept i.e. heavy rain prior to the full-moon will reduce the temperature significantly which means you will have wait for another full moon with hotter temperature. It is also location dependent. And the problem goes on and on.
Quote ?The Earth is about 3% closer to the Sun in December than in June, but since there's so much more water in the Southern Hemisphere, things don't usually heat up as quickly and to the same degree as in the Northern Hemisphere."?
Again you proved that you are not thinking properly or are incapable of doing so. You are quoting an average generalized situation to mislead people. You failed to understand the rationale behind my saying that ?Interior portion of Australia?? This means the land will heat up rather quickly as it is far removed from the water. The water impact is negligible in certain region of Australia.
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Peace Ayman,
Qoute ???and the order of your months is what will determine when your arbitrary Ramadhan occurs.?
Why would I change the order of the months that Prophet Muhammad used? The order of the months was established firmly by the Prophet during his stay with was (previous generation) which we still follow. You are making a false accusation that Umar changed the order of the months without any valid evidence. Umar is the one who fought with the Prophet and not you. My innermost thoughts tell me that he didn?t abandon the Islam religion like you suggest using the example ?he changed the order of months?. Judging your logic from the contents of your posts, I would most certainly conclude it is you who we should be careful about. Suggesting such a drastic change during the time in question would be equivalent to asking for extreme punishment. Even a sane disbeliever wouldn?t dare do that.
Quote ?.. new year today and you conjecture that Ramadhan is the 9th month in your calendar then your Ramadhan will be 9 lunar months from today?
You think people are that dumb. What kind of mind and education do you have? I think it is something you would do though. If I am starting a new calendar from next new moon, I will call my first month Ramadan and by default it will become my new year.
Another extreme situation is this If a powerful disbelieving system takes over and change the calendar and order of the months, I will re-synch the new months with the known Ramadan month and continue my religious duties. It is easy (Elementary my dear Watson).
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Peace Ayman,
Quote ?No, I don't get it. Please excuse my ignorance and show us your incredible intelligence by telling us this commone sense and measurement techniques that allows you to know this using 1712.?
First, you give me the length of your solar cycle. This way you will not be able to take different position after the fact. The solar cycle I use is 365.2xxx. Why are you not dividing yours?
Quote ?Oc course the parts in underline and bold in your translation are contradictory.?
Contradictory, says who? Are you the authority who decides what is right from wrong? You have too big an ego to be thinking that everything you do or say is correct. You must think you are infallible. Your faulty posts prove otherwise.
Quote ?The year is the interval between the longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night. This system is a self-adjusting system that doesn't require any adjustment. I guess I am now a famous person.?
You are not famous yet. It is just a claim now. You have to put it in practice and show that it works. You can start by giving us the number of days between the ?longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night?. These days has to equate to the God given solar cycle.
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Peace siki,
Quote ?Over a period of time it dawned on you that it was easy to keep track of this bright full moon, and what a fool you were when you kept the count with waxing cresent.?
And how do you make distinction between
- moon of day before the full-moon
- Full-moon
- Moon of day after the full-moon
Without the use of a telescope or a binocular.
I am assuming that this stranded person does not have quartz base Rolex watch on him.
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Peace ramzi,
I don?t understand the question "Why? Is the time between longest/shortest day/night not God given?"
However, if you meant ?longest/shortest day/night and the next longest/shortest day/night? then the answer is this
The count of days is man made and it is subject to an error. Is it 365 days or 365.2xx days? The fraction of the day is part of the solar cycle and has to be taken into account. But Ayman?s system does not allow that because he chose the unit?s to be day and night. Therefore, Ayman?s timing system is not in synch with the God given solar cycle. Additionally, Ayman?s system will drift with seasons, like lunar based time system, caused by neglecting the fraction of a day in the God give solar cycle.
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Peace Guest
I think you have misunderstood me when I said he (Umar) has changed the system. I did not suggest that the lunar cycles were changed or their lengths. I ment the calendar in use. Questions I set are not because I have knowledge or evidence that I can produce or that I am trying to change anyones mind but to understand historic events of how it was and what changed us through out the years. I am assuming it was for these very reasons that muslims divided into secs as they could not agree on particular things.
Also, If you see my second post just after the one you decided to answer you can see I have been trying to read and understand what is going on. I also placed a source of reference of what I was reading.
So let me conclude what I understand so far (I am not saying I am right, just stating my understanding of what I have been reading).
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Muslims in the day of the Prophet used to follow the jewish calendar system were an extra month was added now and again to keep the calendar in sink with seasons.
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One of the last surah's to be revealled to the Prophet was Surah 9 in which a verse read
936 The count of the months with God is twelve months in the book
of God the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of
them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong
yourselves in them; and fight the polytheists collectively as they
fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.-
Our Prophet after this revelation rejected the Jewish calendar in use in the early part of Islam and adopted a strickly lunar calendar.
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Umar according to my background reading, did not change the calendar but fixed a starting date. This was done so that documents could be correctly dated.
We are all in search for the truth Guest and I am no different to you or anyone on this site. When I ask questions its because I want to gain different points of view and search my heart for the one that I feel is right.
Further more, Quote This is a baseless accusation without any valid evidence. Produce your evidence if you speak the truth. If you are 100% certain that you are speaking the truth then invoke the curse of Allah by saying ? If I am lying make my life hell in this world and on the day of judgment I will voluntarily enter hell for ever, also give me cancer of the worst kind if I am a liar."
Why would you say something like that? All I did was ask a question. It would have been better to use less agression in your post by simply saying I really dont know why, than trying to get me to wish something on myself so terrible as your quote. You must understand I am not attacking anyone in any of my posts, and if it seemed that way to you then appologies. You must understand I have many years to catch up on my islamic knowledge, so from time to time it may seem I am asking obvious questions but you must excuse that and be patient.
May God lead us all in the right path
Peace
Hope
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Peace all --
- Muslims in the day of the Prophet used to follow the jewish calendar system were an extra month was added now and again to keep the calendar in sink with seasons.
How do you know this?
- One of the last surah's to be revealled to the Prophet was Surah 9 in which a verse read
How do you know which was first and which was last or which parts where first and which parts where last?
- Our Prophet after this revelation rejected the Jewish calendar in use in the early part of Islam and adopted a strickly lunar calendar.
How do you know this?
- Umar according to my background reading, did not change the calendar but fixed a starting date. This was done so that documents could be correctly dated.
How do you know this? Umar ruled on a number of things including stoning, how to distribute inheritance and interpreted much of the book according to whatever ideas popped in his head or in the minds of people after him according to whatever opinions they had -- attribute it to whoever back in the day give it legitimacy.
Further more, Quote This is a baseless accusation without any valid evidence. Produce your evidence if you speak the truth. If you are 100% certain that you are speaking the truth then invoke the curse of Allah by saying ? If I am lying make my life hell in this world and on the day of judgment I will voluntarily enter hell for ever, also give me cancer of the worst kind if I am a liar."
Sounds like someone being accused of adultery; no need for that we're only talking...lol
I'm of the opinion starting point is time = 0 the beginning...
Use "DOC" new moon crescent "D" full moon "O" end cycle "C" then restart count.
If using full moon there is a 7 day period of uncertainty as to moon phase.
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/calendar/index.php?monthyear=8/2009
begin month/year 1
ramadan 29.53059
2___ 59.06118
3___ 88.59177
4___ 118.12236
5___ 147.65295
6___ 177.18354
7___ 206.71413
8___ 236.24472
9___ 265.77531
10__ 295.3059
11__ 324.83649
12__ 354.36708
ramadan 365.242199 begin year 2Perhaps take difference (lunar - solstice) calculate where we are at currently in the cycle.
The other thing is it may be the same with how to exactly pray; really doesn't matter, start anywhere in the cycle -- not much difference between time slices and what matters is the current moment the only reality.
Peace
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Peace Eid Abdullah
- Muslims in the day of the Prophet used to follow the jewish calendar system were an extra month was added now and again to keep the calendar in sink with seasons.
How do you know this?
Quote
2. One of the last surah's to be revealled to the Prophet was Surah 9 in which a verse readHow do you know which was first and which was last or which parts where first and which parts where last?
Quote
3. Our Prophet after this revelation rejected the Jewish calendar in use in the early part of Islam and adopted a strickly lunar calendar.How do you know this?
Quote
4. Umar according to my background reading, did not change the calendar but fixed a starting date. This was done so that documents could be correctly dated.How do you know this? Umar ruled on a number of things including stoning, how to distribute inheritance and interpreted much of the book according to whatever ideas popped in his head or in the minds of people after him according to whatever opinions they had -- attribute it to whoever back in the day give it legitimacy.
My reply is I dont really know. The summary I gave was a summary after reading a few internet sites. I am hoping that people like you will respond with your views and possibly let us know what really happened and if possible provide some evidence or suggested reading. Thank you for your reply.
Peace
Hope