Bakkah
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To all of you who say the Hajj is to a place other than Mecca
What are your comments on this? http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html
Peace
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You have revived a good topic.
After reading some criticism of the Quran, I realized that the land in the Quran is the land of all the Quranic stories. This land is like the 'Divnne presence' land. Any wickedness will be detroyed immediately and the righteous shall inherit this land. Messengers were only sent to the people who lived in this region. People of other countries are disbelievers because they rejected the ancient house which is oldest temple built for the Creator god.
So Adam, Noah, Ad, Thamud, Dhil-Hijr, Midian, Sodom, Pharaoh of Misr, Israel's kingdom, Mohammed all lived in the same region which is around the ancient house in the mother of villages.
Thats why the Quran states over and over, if you are in doubt just look at the ruins of the previous people. So this place tolerates no wickedness as it is holy because the holy house of the Creator is found there.
Have you ever wondered why God doesn't really care about the Egyptians,Babylonians, Sumerians, Chinese and many others. When God said we sent messengers to all nations, it means nations living in this land.
Now to the big question! Where is this land or region?
The best candidate for this land is Northwest Arabia ie. Midian. There is too much destruction there!
This land is known for its Earthquakes.
But still where is the Ancient house in this region?
Where is the valley of Baca, the grassless valley?
Where is the mountain/volcano with the oil producing tree?
Note that God talked to Moses and Moses promised Jethro some pilgrimages in the same weird land Midian.
Also there was a cult in Midian worshipping some kind of volcano god called Jahve.
Peace.
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To all of you who say the Hajj is to a place other than Mecca
What are your comments on this? http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html
Peace
I don't have a personal conclusion. But the idea that Mecca has an illustrious history is only supported by post-Islamic sources. Similiar to the Vatican. That doesn't mean it wasn't the site in question, just that the orthodox arguments are circular.
Points to consider
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There's no reason (beyond religious rationalizations) to conflate Becca with Mecca. Compare to the false Jewish conflation of Mount Moreh and Mount Moriah for theological reasons.
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The word Mecca only appears in passing the in actual text of the Quran. Compare the numerous uses of place-names in the Bible. The idea that the Prophet appeared in a certain signficant place originates late in Islamic history and even if accurate is not distinct from the political environment at the time these traditions came to be. The culmination of Islamic conquest is in the 'Holy Land' which seems at odds with the idea that an anonymous Arabia city is the holiest place on earth (of course the idea of 'Holy Place' may have been invented as a result of conquest and influence by Judaism).
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The word Ka'aba only appears twice in one Surah, yet Muslim tradition uses the title almost exclusively for the site.
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Statements about the Valley of Tuwwa, and the locale of Sodom -- Muslim scholars cannot state firmly where these sites are, but there are traditional guesses.
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I've already mentioned the Vatican (at one time a place of reverence for the Mithric religion) and the Jewish conflation of Moreh/Moriah... there's obviously a history of taking old sites and using esoteric traditions to legitimze them as Holy Sites.
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If the Hajj was performed to a place other than Mecca, shouldn't there be traces of the practice somewhere, just as one can construct arguments against the hadeeth using hadeeth?
What about non-hadeeth sources? Shouldn't it be possible find historical accounts of groups of people performing a pilgrimage?
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Heh. I don't think religion really needs 'certainty'. Certainty is a bit of an idol. People canonize all sorts of bizarre things in the course of religion. And along the way forget to worship God.
If the Hajj was performed to a place other than Mecca, shouldn't there be traces of the practice somewhere, just as one can construct arguments against the hadeeth using hadeeth?
Yup. Like I said, I'm not really an advocate of the idea that Hajj was for any other site. Someone else will have to respond to this topic. Having read the articles I'd suspect Layth or Ayman would probably argue the miscalculations of the mihrab of older mosques could indicate a previous spot.
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Religion = Belief x faith x contentment
That is how the cookie stays together
pr amen! too! ;D
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http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html
That article shows that the argument of "mihrab miscalculation" is not valid. It is not possible to prove that the qiblah was in the direction of Jerusalem after the change to Mecca, as hadeeth tradition claims.
To me, the writings of Layth and Ayman seem to be influenced by the ideas of Hagarism, which was refuted by the majority of orientalists.
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http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html
That article shows that the argument of "mihrab miscalculation" is not valid. It is not possible to prove that the qiblah was in the direction of Jerusalem after the change to Mecca, as hadeeth tradition claims.
To me, the writings of Layth and Ayman seem to be influenced by the ideas of Hagarism, which was refuted by the majority of orientalists.
You actually made the point better than I did (due to my miserably poor memory). Jerusalem was the point of reverence in Islam before Mecca (supposedly). There's the pre-Mecca evidence.
FYI, I've never understood Hagarism. Even though a lot of Islam is justified by traditions of Hajar (namely the rites of Hajj) she doesn't figure into the Quran at all. Why would these 'Hajarite' arabs identify themselves with her, accepting her as their matriarch, but then cut her out of their main religious text? Yet another thing I believe Muslims adopted post-conquest of Jerusalem.
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Where are these guys now?
Yeah, I also thought of that! Where is idolfree? He was a great contributer and he was a moderater too!
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Peace es818,
To all of you who say the Hajj is to a place other than Mecca
What are your comments on this? http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.htmlThe genuine antiquity of Caaba ascends beyond the Christian era in describing the coast of the Red sea the Greek historian Diodorus has remarked, between the Thamudites and the Sabeans, a famous temple, whose superior sanctity was revered by all the Arabians; the linen of silken veil, which is annually renewed by the Turkish emperor, was first offered by the Homerites, who reigned seven hundred years before the time of Mohammad.
Diodorus Siculus lived in the 1st century BCE so perhaps you might want to ask Saifullah the following questions
- How did Diodorus Siculus mention in his remark the Turkish Empire, which didn't even exist until at least 1400 years later!?
- How did Diodorus Siculus mention in his remark Mohammad who lived 700 years later!?
What Gibbons gave was his own baseless opinion NOT a REMARK by Diodorus Siculus as Saifuallah's quote misleadingly insinuates.
It is interesting to know that Claudius Ptolemy of Alexandria, mathematician and astronomer, flourishing about a century after Pliny, undertook to make an atlas of the habitable world. He was not a descriptive geographer, and his book was intended to be no more than a commentary on his maps. He enumerated some hundred and fourteen cities or villages in Arabia Felix.
For example, Dumaetha, placed by Ptolemy just outside the northern boundary of Arabia Felix, must be the mediaeval Arabian Daumet, which is today the chief village of the great oasis of Jauf. Hejr, famous in the "times of ignorance" as the seat of a kingdom, and now Medayin Salih, is Ptolemy's Egra. His Thaim is Teima, now known for its inscriptions to have had temples and some sort of civilization as far back as 500 BC. It is the Tema of Job. In Lathrippa, placed inland from Iambia (Yambo), we recognize the Iathrippa of Stephan of Byzantium, the Yathrib of the early Arab traditions, now honoured as El Medina, the City of Cities.
Apart from this a place called Macoraba is also shown which is identified as Mecca (please refer to the map facing page 17 of reference ).
G E von Grunebaum saysMecca is mentioned by Ptolemy, and the name he gives it allows us to identify it as a South Arabian foundation created around a sanctuary.
Now here are the facts that one can get with a proper educated reading of Saifullah's article
- Similar to Diodorus Siculus, Ptolemy doesn't mention Mecca at all.
- Ptolemy mentions a small insignificant town in the passing by the name of Macoraba not Mecca.
- The location of the Macroba is not identified by Ptolemy as the location of present day Mecca. It is Saifullah himself who does the identification and this is why he TAKES THIS MOST IMPORTANT PART OUT OF THE QUOTATION. He then quotes a lie by von Grunebaum.
When we actually look at what Ptolemy said, we see that Ptolemy actually further discredits Mecca. Here is a copy of the translation of the relevant entry in Ptolemy where he mentions Macoraba
http//i44.tinypic.com/2unwljd.gif
Please note that Ptolemy describes Macoraba as the fifth city south of Yathrib and the fourth south of Carna. So while present day Mecca is to the north of Carna, Macoraba is to the south of Carna. Ptolemy skipped over the present location of Mecca as if it didn't exist. Ironically, the best evidence that defenders of Mecca have actually discredits Mecca.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Rami,
Where is the valley of Baca, the grassless valley?
Where does it say that the valley is grassless? The valley is refered to as "without human cultivation" ( ) when Abraham settled some of his descendants there. This doesn't mean that it is grassless or plantless or that it later wasn't cultivated.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Cushan,
- The word Mecca only appears in passing the in actual text of the Quran.
This is not accurate. The word that appears is "mecca" (lower case) not "Mecca". It is a common noun that means "destruction". Here is the translation of Yusufali and the corrected version
048.024
YUSUFALI And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.048.024
YUSUFALI And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.As you can see, the common noun fits perfectly in the context.
- The word Ka'aba only appears twice in one Surah, yet Muslim tradition uses the title almost exclusively for the site.
Again, as with "mecca", the common noun "ka'aba"/base fits in both instances. This is a universal concept and even kids all over the world understand that the "base" is a safe place when they play.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace ES818,
If the Hajj was performed to a place other than Mecca, shouldn't there be traces of the practice somewhere, just as one can construct arguments against the hadeeth using hadeeth?
The problem is two-fold
- What you refer to as Hajj has nothing to do with the real "hajj"/feast.
- What you refer to as Hajj is in fact pagan annual celebration of fertility goddess rebirth.
Indeed, one can see traces of this pagan rebirth celebrations to this day, for example, in the raditional Subu' birth celebrations which take place 7 days after the birth of a newborn and they involve spinning 7 times around the house. More on the pagan origin of the sectarian so-called Hajj here
http//www.free-minds.org/ayman
What about non-hadeeth sources? Shouldn't it be possible find historical accounts of groups of people performing a pilgrimage?
If you look for the meaning of the word "hajj" as used by the people of the book, you will see that it means "feast" and it was used to denote the annual harvest feast. This is why when you read the great reading you find that 90% of the passages about "hajj" have to do with livestock and eating and offering free food.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace ES818,
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Dome_Of_The_Rock/qibla.html
That article shows that the argument of "mihrab miscalculation" is not valid. It is not possible to prove that the qiblah was in the direction of Jerusalem after the change to Mecca, as hadeeth tradition claims.
The Christians oriented their churches' apse with the winter sunrise. This can be seen in early churches such as the Hagia Sophia and Hagia Irene. As can be seen from the article of Saifullah et al., this is also the case for the Fustat mosque in Egypt where the apse is precisely aligned with the winter sunrise and not with Jerusalem or present day Mecca. All one can conclude from the data is that there was no one specific direction.
To me, the writings of Layth and Ayman seem to be influenced by the ideas of Hagarism, which was refuted by the majority of orientalists.
People often misunderstand what Hagarism is about. The most important point of Hagarism has nothing to do with Mecca or Qibla. It has to do with the cultural forces affecting the new Islamic empire. In fact, Hagarism inadvertently proves that the great reading dates to a much earlier time than the invention of the town called Mecca.
Peace,
Ayman
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Is it possible to historically date the first mentioning of the Hajj as performed nowadays? Does anybody know any reference?
Peace
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Peace ES818,
Is it possible to historically date the first mentioning of the Hajj as performed nowadays? Does anybody know any reference?
It depends what you mean. Do you mean the so-called Hajj (capital H) or the common "hajj" (lower case). Both predate the Islamic empire.
The primary elements of the sectarian so-called Hajj predate the Islamic empire and goes back to Nabataean times. You find therefore similar stone cubes or rectangular figures in places such as Petra. They symbolize the Nabataean idols, namely the chief goddess Allat. The same goes for the Black Stone, where you find similar black stones in ancient times associated with fertility godesses such as Aphrodite. It is interesting that the Aphrodite legend states that her beauty was kept in a black cube. The practice of putting idols in a black box dates back to the late ancient Egyptian kingdoms. Perhaps by that time people started to realize that the statues of idols were nothing but stones so the priests needed a different approach. So the priests would keep idols such as Horus in a black box with an opening in one of its corners. The common people would then submit their requests to the priest and the priest in turn would whisper their supplication to the idol through the opening. The common people were not allowed to look in the cube. Rituals such as spinning seven times around the idol were described in the fourth century CE by Epiphanius, the Bishop of Salamis when writing about the cult of the Nabataean.
The earliest post-Islamic document to reference the sectarian Hajj comes not from an Islamic source but from John of Damascus who wrote in the 730s CE of the Arabs still worshipping Aphrodite (the hellenized Allat) and kissing and rubbing a stone that represents her head (Source Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Others Saw it).
On the other hand, the common noun "hajj" has nothing to do with the above and was first used by the people of the book to mean "feast". Please see the following discussion on this matter
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597976.0
So essentially, like Christians who continued their pagan traditions under new Christianized names such as Christmas, Muslims too continued their pagan traditions by borrowing common nouns from the great reading to name their pagan idols and rituals.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Cushan,
This is not accurate. The word that appears is "mecca" (lower case) not "Mecca". It is a common noun that means "destruction". Here is the translation of Yusufali and the corrected version
048.024
YUSUFALI And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.048.024
YUSUFALI And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.Peace,
Ayman
Dear Brother
Evidence is required for this translation.
Secondly the word "Makkata" cannot be translated because it is a proper noun.
Regards