Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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ayman, r u ignorin my post?
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Salaam,
Salam. Ayman, i live in Derbent, Russia, when i should fast accordin to your investigation? And, stop being so mad guyz, stop hatin on each otha so much, its not islam, even if yall will be fastin your whole life.
You're near Baku, Azerbaijan
http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=2009&n=369
Moon phases for Baku, Azerbaijan
<2008 year 2009 2010>
Full Moon
11-Jan 727 AM
9-Feb 649 PM
11-Mar 638 AM
9-Apr 756 PM
9-May 902 AM
7-Jun 1112 PM
7-Jul 222 PM (full moon after summer solstice this year happened in daytime.)
6-Aug 555 AM
4-Sep 902 PM
4-Oct 1110 AM
2-Nov 1114 PM
2-Dec 1131 AM
31-Dec 1113 PM -
Hi Ayman, Hi all,
Just one question, if as you stated Ramadan is to be done from first full moon after summer solstice, that would mean people in north hemispher and south hemispher will not fast together, nor hajj together.
Possible answer Yes so is salat, everyone pray at their specific time.
But then what do you do with Hajj which is a call for all mankind and therefore has to be one event for all the people (and not 2 events one for north and one for south)
Don't know if I explained well the problems?
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Hi Ayman, Hi all,
Just one question, if as you stated Ramadan is to be done from first full moon after summer solstice, that would mean people in north hemispher and south hemispher will not fast together, nor hajj together.
Possible answer Yes so is salat, everyone pray at their specific time.
But then what do you do with Hajj which is a call for all mankind and therefore has to be one event for all the people (and not 2 events one for north and one for south)
Don't know if I explained well the problems?
laugh You shooting the rock through the first bird, and into the second.
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I don't want to shoot any rock I just want to find the truth. I like the idea of having natural markers to resolve this issue, like we use markers for salat, and I think it is the most logical concept.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597441.0
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Hi Ayman, Hi all,
Just one question, if as you stated Ramadan is to be done from first full moon after summer solstice, that would mean people in north hemispher and south hemispher will not fast together, nor hajj together.
Possible answer Yes so is salat, everyone pray at their specific time.
But then what do you do with Hajj which is a call for all mankind and therefore has to be one event for all the people (and not 2 events one for north and one for south)
Don't know if I explained well the problems?
Ssssssshhhhh... You have just presented the biggest problem and most illogical part of Ayman's system.
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Peace Ibrahim-Khalil,
Salam. Ayman, i live in Derbent, Russia, when i should fast accordin to your investigation? And, stop being so mad guyz, stop hatin on each otha so much, its not islam, even if yall will be fastin your whole life.
You already missed the scorching full-moon (?shahr ramadhan?) for this year. The night of the scorching full-moon for 2009 was July 6. Therefore, the fast started on July 7 for 10 days and so the last day of fasting was July 16.
For next year, the scorching full-moon will be on June 25, 2010. Therefore, the first day of the fast will be June 26 for 10 days and so the last day will be July 5.
I hope this helps.
group
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Eid,
No. It started that night rest was obviously revealed later. Good to see you changed your mind on this.
Please quote where I said that ?inzal? wasn?t in one night.
I go by Qur?an and yes even a million days in hell can be little compared to eternity.
324I know no one who claims that they will stay in hell for 1 million days, which is relatively little compared to eternity. You are again forced to invent your own illogical meaning out of thin air because you can?t resolve the contradiction and now a few (?ma3doodat?) days can be made to mean a million days in your fantasy world.
Likewise, a numbered/near term is relative not 10 or less...
118There is nothing in 118 which says that it is not 10 or less so you must be imagining again.
Answering a question with questions is evading the question ? how do you fast a full moon?
To know is to see/witness and one can know/witness without physically seeing. The blind and people living in cloudy weather also fast during the month of Ramadan. Fast is during the day, when you see NEW MOON CRESCENT start fasting next day, and again the next day, until you see the new moon crescent again, stop fasting.So now you are forced to do a cartwheel and invent another new meaning for ?shahr? as ?new moon crescent? (an event) instead of ?29.53059 days?. What is it the meaning of ?shahr? according to you, ?new moon crescent? or ?29.53059 days?? You are clearly caught in your inconsistencies. The reason why you are caught is the fact that ?shahid? is in the perfect past tense. In other words, you have to witness first in order to fast so clearly it is impossible for ?shahr? to mean ?29.53059 days? but it MUST be an event. Therefore despite all your ignorant noise about ?shahr? not being an event you are now forced to make a 180 degrees turn and implicitly acknowledge that it is in fact an event, which you claim is the new moon crescent.
Pay attention, I was responding to your redundancy claim that this part is meaningless? 2185 ?God wants with you the ease and does not want with you the hardship, and to complete alAAiddata??
You need to read the whole passage from 2184 and not snip it. What is the function of ?ayyam ma3doodat? in 2184 if it is known that ?shahr? means ?29.53059 days?? It would have no function and would be completely redundant.
You're making stuff up imagination gone wild; first it was to protect animals during birth; then when it was shown you that some are born during May, you fantasize about Arabs chasing them down with fast horses during weaning in the hot months of June, July, August; then when it's pointed out that your hunting restriction swings a whole month, you say well that's within range like animals mating habits drift a whole month...what a story teller. LOL
Please show were I said ?that's within range like animals mating habits?.
In context 51-2 and 594-97 are they still traveling anywhere?
Yes, they are traveling anywhere unless you want to corner yourself again and propose that livestock had been made lawful to you in 51 only during ?hajj? and cooperating on righteousness in 52 only happen during the ?hajj?.
Moon phases for Riyadh, Saudi Arabia year 643
http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=643&n=214
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/PERF558.html
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Papyri/jones.html
Grohmann worked out "30 Pharmouthi of the indiction year 1" to be 25th April, 643 CE.
The date fits with two of the most commonly available conversion tables those of Caetani and of Freeman-Grenville.?? They make the last day of Jumada I equate with 26th April, 643 CE.
According to above which you can roll back only ten years to time of the prophet (peace and blessing upon him)?
New Moon - Start New Month
1/25/643 1124 PM 27-Jan 3. Rabi' al-awwal
24-Feb 900 AM 26-Feb 4. Rabi' al-thani
25-Mar 603 PM 27-Mar 5. Jumada al-awwal 4/25/643 PERF 558
4/24/643 324 AM 4/26/643 6. Jumada al-thani
23-May 158 PM 25-May 7. Rajab
22-Jun 221 AM 24-Jun 8. Sha'aban
21-Jul 439 PM 23-Jul 9. Ramadan
20-Aug 832 AM 22-Aug 10. Shawwal
19-Sep 125 AM 21-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
18-Oct 633 PM 20-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
17-Nov 1102 AM 19-Nov 1. Muharram
17-Dec 158 AM 19-Dec 2. SafarSo now you are abandoning your arbitrary whimsical calendar where each one gets to decide their time for the ?hajj?, the fast, and the restriction according to their fantasies and instead cheerleading for the equally baseless and 100% arbitrary traditional calendar that had been thoroughly discredited on this thread by everyone with any common sense!
It doesn?t take a genius to realize that had the traditional calendar been made to start on the new moon prior to when it was adopted then your Jumada I would have been Rabi' Al-Thani and your Ramadan would have been Shaaban and so on. Also, had the arbitrary order of the months been different then you would have completely different Ramadan and so on. So your useless traditional timing is 100% arbitrary and manmade.
As already stated, waiting a stated time is waiting for an event.
No, it is not the same except in your fantasy land. Waiting for the event of menstruation is not waiting a stated time. Same goes for waiting for the event of the full-moon/?shahr?, or the event of something bad happening, a disaster, etc.
Two full moons is EXACTLY 1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
So right back at you ? how do you fast 29.53059 days?You don?t fast the continuous period of 29.53059 days (?shahr? according to you). No one does and is still alive. You fast daily between 2 full moons. The consecutive full-moons in the case of 492 simply signal the start and end of the fast.
How do you fast one full moon or 0 days?
Same as in 492, the full moon signals the start of the fast and the details of how long and the manner of the fast are given elsewhere. No one fasts 29.53059 days continuously.
I was extraordinarily cool after you referred to myself and a family member of mine as idiots and called me a liar too and your cheerleader truthseeker during his meaningless rant called us ignorant.
You were referring to two hypothetical women who will not be able to tell the full-moon and so was I. I never said anything about you or a family member or any real person. If you don?t like what I said about those hypothetical women then I apologize and take back what I said. Now going back to your very intelligent hypothetical women, let?s listen to their conversation
August 3, Sunset is at 710PM
hypno Hypothetical Woman 1 The moon looks like an ordinary full moon.
! Hypothetical Woman 2 The moon and the sun are on opposite sides of the earth so the real full moon appears right after sunset. Today?s moon, besides not being symmetric appeared an hour before sunset at 610PM.August 4, Sunset is at 710PM
hypno Hypothetical Woman 1 The moon looks like an ordinary full moon.
) Hypothetical Woman 2 Again, today?s moon, besides not being perfectly symmetric appeared half an hour before sunset at 640PM.August 5, Sunset is at 710PM
) Hypothetical Woman 2 Look it is 710PM and the perfectly symmetric full moon appeared at the opposite end of the sky from the sunset immediately after sunset. This is the full moon.
sun Hypothetical Woman 1 Wow you are right. This is so easy. Now I understand why, unlike the new moon crescent, there was never any dispute about when the full moon occurs and all ancient civilizations knew exactly when the full-moon occurs without any computers or technology.(Data is for Washington, DC)
You should follow the example of the above hypothetical women.
Check your vision and exactly what I wrote?
I know that you wrote NEW MOON crescent and not any regular crescent. As I said, the NEW MOON CRESCENT will appear on August 20. I guarantee that you will not be able to see it, let alone take a picture of it, on August 20 but you may see the 1-2 day old one on August 21 or 22. Don?t try to wiggle out of what you wrote by dishonestly taking a picture of a regular 1-2 day old crescent and not the NEW MOON crescent. You can also start to demonstrate your honesty by humbly admitting to the fact that you NEVER saw the NEW MOON CRESCENT in your life.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Herbman,
Just one question, if as you stated Ramadan is to be done from first full moon after summer solstice, that would mean people in north hemispher and south hemispher will not fast together, nor hajj together.
Possible answer Yes so is salat, everyone pray at their specific time.
But then what do you do with Hajj which is a call for all mankind and therefore has to be one event for all the people (and not 2 events one for north and one for south)
Don't know if I explained well the problems?The answer to your question will depend on the person.
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If the person believes "hajj" to be spinning 7 times around a stone cube named Kaaba and kissing or waving at a Black Stone set in its corner while wearing nothing but towels so that his sins are wiped out then they will say that this is the biggest problem. However, frankly speaking, such person has much more severe problems on their plate. They should get their fundamentals and heart in the right place first and the timing is the least of their worries and they are not even in a position to discuss it.
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If the person knows that 90% of the "hajj" passages talk about food and eating and that "hajj" means "feast" to the people of the book then it is natural that such feast where we share the bounties that the god provided to us would best take place when the harvest occurs and produce and livestock are plentiful, which would be different between Northern and Southern hemispheres. This person also knows that the period of the 4 restricted full moons is about hunting restriction and since wild life follows the solar cycle, it is also natural for the timing of the restriction to be different between Northern and Southern hemispheres. So for such a person, the timing being different between the Northern and Southern hemispheres is not an issue. This person knows that the location of the house is clearly given in 2226 and it is not specifically in the Northern and Southern hemispheres. Even without the great reading, this person instinctively feels that there is something not quite right about revering and spinning around a black cube or kissing a Black Stone no matter how popular and no matter what his or her forefathers told him or her. This person has his or her heart in the right place. This person recognizes the truth when he or she sees it.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
! Hypothetical Woman 2 The moon and the sun are on opposite sides of the earth so the real full moon appears right after sunset. Today?s moon, besides not being symmetric appeared an hour before sunset at 610PM.
) Hypothetical Woman 2 Again, today?s moon, besides not being perfectly symmetric appeared half an hour before sunset at 640PM.
August 5, Sunset is at 710PM
) Hypothetical Woman 2 Look it is 710PM and the perfectly symmetric full moon appeared at the opposite end of the sky from the sunset immediately after sunset. This is the full moon.You are right, fantasy Woman 2 is a complete idiot deceiving herself.
I know that you wrote NEW MOON crescent and not any regular crescent. As I said, the NEW MOON CRESCENT will appear on August 20. I guarantee that you will not be able to see it, let alone take a picture of it, on August 20 but you may see the 1-2 day old one on August 21 or 22. Don?t try to wiggle out of what you wrote by dishonestly taking a picture of a regular 1-2 day old crescent and not the NEW MOON crescent. You can also start to demonstrate your honesty by humbly admitting to the fact that you NEVER saw the NEW MOON CRESCENT in your life.
You know exactly what I meant and wrote.
Again cannot exactly determine a NEW MOON or FULL MOON with naked eye. If it?s cloudy you missed your fast, if you are blind/partly blind or even have 20/20 vision as evident the last 5 days which they all look alike to me and others which I asked while playing golf under the full moon light; does that moon look full to you, which he replied -- I can't see. lol
The new moon crescent start fast then when seeing it again ?D? as in Eid ? end fast.
2009 Aug 23
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/images/m044.jpgPeace
I'm done with this topic and this site too -- have a nice life.
Peace be upon you all.
Bajram Avdyli
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I live in Pakistan and there are at least three times in a year that people make a positive effort to look for the so called new moon (crescent) 1- we look for the crescent for so called Ramadan to start Ramadan, 2- we look out for crescent to end Ramadan, and this one is usually the favorite, because it signals the end of fasting and brings in the Ed festival next morning. 3- we look for crescent moon in the Islamic month of zul hajj, because this brings us a precise date for Hajj, and eid ul fittar.
On these three occasions, soon after sun set, you will find people/families gathered on roof tops, and making positive efforts to locate the crescent moon. We also did the same in our childhood.
All these years , I can only remember once that i ever saw a new crescent moon, and that also with great effort , and when i took my gaze/focus off and tried to relocate, I couldn't, despite knowing its exact location. It was there at same spot but i could see it again only with very positive consistent efforts.
After this I gave up sighting the moon, knowing that it is a very very difficult exercise, and no wonder , we have the official moon sighting committees in each province, consisting a bunch of Mullahs , positioned at towers/water tanks with star gazer telescopes. But yet they never find, or see it. And whenever they have announced a positive moon sighting, It is like this,
"From one hour up to 3 hours after sun set, The regular TV transmissions are interrupted, and the chief Mullah (head of the moon sighting committee) announce like this, "We have a witness reporting from so and so village confirming on oath that he did see the crescent , so hereby we confirm and announce the start of the month tomorrow, and fast/eid tomorrow"
Even today this is a regular practice, at least 20% of a 180 million nation, make some kind off effort to locate the crescent moon on these three occasions. And also, hundreds of experienced clerics divided in 5 groups for each province, look for it with specialised equipment at designated watch towers, but at the end make a mess of it. Because it boils down to a sole witness reporting from an unknown village, And when the committee reports no sighting or discredits the sightings reported by hallucinating individuals, we end up having two or three eids in the country ( that is almost every other year)
My Pakistani brothers and sisters, did i exaggerate?
peace
siki
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In Urdu everyday we use many derivatives of root sh- ha -ra , and surprisingly all carry a connotation of "some thing obvious", "something you cant miss" , "something which itself makes its presence known even if you are not interested in it"
we have , Mash-hoor, from sh ha ra, meaning famous.
we have, Shoh-raut, from sh ha ra, meaning fame or reppo.
we have, Ishti-har , from sh ha ra, meaning advertisement.We Muslims/Pakistanis, have no interest/reason to look for a full moon, and hence we never do it.
But yet there is generally no confusion, we all know that now is a full moon night. We do not look for it , but it tells us itself, It is there, just there, big, shiny, bright , soon after sun set, like an advertisement, telling us "look i am full tonight".
siki
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let us assume for a while that shahr is a month, and we have to take moon cycles to start this period, we can count from any "one particular shape to the same shape again, for completing a cycle", logically we would select" a shape most visible/obvious, and least confusionable. The so called new crecent moon is least bright and its duration is minimun in the sky, where as exactly opposite is true for the full moon.
"why should God encourage us to start counting from an impossible marker? Do we understand correctly what does the term marker? and what does it necessitate? Do you think God is stupid? What ever little I have known HIM , HE is not, "whereas , we all are, to a certain degree"
Are you guys blind, or don't want to see ?
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peace siki, all,
Yes, multiple Eids is a very common practice in countries, even in the UK with all its so-called technology. Many years ago I had the pleasure of discussing with a member of the committee who actually decided when Eid was for the area, and he told us they never actually attempted to look for any new moon, they all just had a chat and decided when was best or what other countries were doing or what their particular sect of Islam was doing and did that. Much to my and my cousins surprise at the time (well, more so to their surprise, I was half expecting it), but that was what they did, and no doubt still do. To think that God would make us stumble about with some sort of haphazard difficult to implement timing system is nonsense, as you pointed out.
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I live in Pakistan and there are at least three times in a year that people make a positive effort to look for the so called new moon (crescent) 1- we look for the crescent for so called Ramadan to start Ramadan, 2- we look out for crescent to end Ramadan, and this one is usually the favorite, because it signals the end of fasting and brings in the Ed festival next morning. 3- we look for crescent moon in the Islamic month of zul hajj, because this brings us a precise date for Hajj, and eid ul fittar.
On these three occasions, soon after sun set, you will find people/families gathered on roof tops, and making positive efforts to locate the crescent moon. We also did the same in our childhood.
All these years , I can only remember once that i ever saw a new crescent moon, and that also with great effort , and when i took my gaze/focus off and tried to relocate, I couldn't, despite knowing its exact location. It was there at same spot but i could see it again only with very positive consistent efforts.
After this I gave up sighting the moon, knowing that it is a very very difficult exercise, and no wonder , we have the official moon sighting committees in each province, consisting a bunch of Mullahs , positioned at towers/water tanks with star gazer telescopes. But yet they never find, or see it. And whenever they have announced a positive moon sighting, It is like this,
"From one hour up to 3 hours after sun set, The regular TV transmissions are interrupted, and the chief Mullah (head of the moon sighting committee) announce like this, "We have a witness reporting from so and so village confirming on oath that he did see the crescent , so hereby we confirm and announce the start of the month tomorrow, and fast/eid tomorrow"
Even today this is a regular practice, at least 20% of a 180 million nation, make some kind off effort to locate the crescent moon on these three occasions. And also, hundreds of experienced clerics divided in 5 groups for each province, look for it with specialised equipment at designated watch towers, but at the end make a mess of it. Because it boils down to a sole witness reporting from an unknown village, And when the committee reports no sighting or discredits the sightings reported by hallucinating individuals, we end up having two or three eids in the country ( ( that is almost every other year)
My Pakistani brothers and sisters, did i exaggerate?
peace
siki
You are 100 % correct '(
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Peace Siki,
You are da best bravo bravo bravo
I am becoming a big fan of yours ) May The God bless you for your constant striving and thank you so much.
