hajj / feast / debate
-
peace brother Ayman,
You really have to decide if you are proposing that "al-hajj" is "the debate" or "the conference/symposium" and stick with one definition. The debate is ?the back and forth arguments or discussion of propositions between two opposing sides?. The conference is ?the formal meeting to discuss and exchange ideas on matters of common concern?. The definition of the symposium is ?the formal meeting at which specialists deliver lectures on related topics?. As you can see they are clearly different so choose one.
First of all it is not a "hajj", it is "al hajj", thus is better termed "the conference/symposium" as "the debate" does not give the emphasis of "the debate" as an event, i.e. it is not a debate and that's it. I have mentioned this before. You could term it "the debate" as long it is understood by whoever you are addressing it is also an event.
I find it interesting you want me to confine my definition, yet there are clearly other things going on at 'al hajj', e.g. remembering/mentioning God, rites/observances, 'arafaat/familiarizations/approbations/recognitions, seeking God's bounty, so it is obviously more than a debate, it is an event. Similarly, your meaning of feast will not encompass what else is going on UNLESS your argument is there is only feasting going on, nothing else. Is this your position?
Please provide a reference from the great reading because although ?witnessing benefits? is mentioned as a purpose of the ?haj?, ?witness guidance? is not mentioned anywhere as a purpose.
Do you confine "witness benefits" to "witness benefits of food/livestock only"? In any case...
Guidance, remembering God, witnessing benefits, rites/observances, giving good news, inviting to good are all mentioned in close proximity to hajj verses 2158-160, 2189, 2197-209, 2225-37, the whole context before and after of 397 is about guidance, following what is right, unity, inviting to good, getting the mesage across to people of the book etc.The above is clear for all to see.
You didn?t answer the question. ?Be there? is not the same thing as ?being the debaters?. For example, will everyone debate everyone or are people there to watch a debate between a limited number of people and they are really not participating in the debate? If so, who are those limited number of people?
The way I see it is the hosts of 'al hajj' are clearly in an authorotative position wherever it is being hosted to be able to have such an event, and thus they will be the people who are doing the inviting, hosting, organising security/regulations/infrastructure, providing food/drink etc. So if they are doing all this, then it stands to reason they are also the principal ones undertaking debate, running the communication/learning/message part etc. Of course, since it is open to all, it is possible others would also be involved. Also, audience participation may well occur, Q&A etc.
That is why AQ differentiates between the terms HJJ and 3MR, former term related to debate aspects, latter for visit aspects, i.e. audience.
As a side note, I find it strange you would even bring up TV. AQ is written to be applicable for all people at all levels of technology, as you well know.
I know, but you are missing the point because unlike the feast where no matter how technology progresses, people will always have to be there to participate, ?the debate? doesn?t need physical presence at a common place but can be virtual (as we are doing right now).
See how you say "I know" yet in the very same sentence you suggest a high tech alternative! I repeat, AQ is written to be applicable for all people at all levels of technology... and yes, that includes people without internet access.
Also, as I mentioned previously, in your understanding, are you implying it is only feasting that is going on, nothing else?
As per the definition of ?the debate? or ?the conference? or ?the symposium? (whichever one you want to haphazardly choose), those attending or debating or presenting or whatever have to be interested in the subject. Now the great reading or any specific religious subject may be of interest to you but it is undoubtedly of little interest to non-like minded people, even Muslims. Certainly, it won?t attract people from all over to come to this ?debate?, ?conference? or ?symposium?. In fact, such ?debates?, ?conferences? and ?symposiums? occur all the time and NONE ever attracts people with completely different interests or affiliations. Why is yours any different?
Thanks for your unevidenced subjective opinion. Again, your argument is basically this "the feast" is more appealing than "the conference/symposium". And somehow in your imagination, this unevidenced subjective opinion of "more appeal" translates to "the conference/symposium/debate" is disproven. That is laughable. At most, I would say its possible "the feast" would be more appealing than "the conference/symposium/debate", but even if it would be, this proves/disproves nothing.
Tell us, will the "free food people" still turn up in their droves when you also tell them there is no sexual relations allowed during this event ? Who will object to this less the "free food people" or those who wish to attend "the conference/symposium" as I see it? ;D
It is free food. It is not polite to ask those questions to any hosts.
Oh, so my questions are impolite, so should not be asked, but yours are ok? ;D
Is this what you ask when invited to a feast at someone?s house?
Actually sometimes I do, as I do not eat pig meat. Of course, no need to ask those who know me. Is my question impolite? Should I remain silent? ;D
Also, as with any harvest feast, there is no need to ask since clearly, a harvest feast will have fruits and vegetables common to the region where the feast happens.
Oh, so it's "harvest feast" now is it? Which is it "the feast" or "the harvest feast"?
Also, people coming from all over can bring food donations and contribute to the feast. So you can try foods from other parts of the world if the particular foods common to this area don?t suit your taste.
Oh, so it's not free food anymore, it's also bring your own, and not just enough for yourself it's bring enough to share with others now is it? Not that I particularly mind that, but it's interesting because your whole angle is it's "free food".
Background see 2197It is disproven because no one will go to the debate that has a vague or uninteresting subject between unknown debaters or the conference on a subject that has no interest to them or go the symposium to be lectured on things that are completely disinteresting to them.
I have highlighted in bold, your baseless/exaggerated/absurd/illogical word usage.
Just try to put yourself in their shoes. Would you go to a Jewish conference where you are invited to see Rabbis debate the Talmud and witness the benefits and guidance under the Talmud (which they say is the god?s system)? Would you go to a Sunni conference to see Mullahs debate Hadiths and witness the benefits and guidance under the Hadiths (which they also say is the god?s system)? Why expect differently from others? On the other hand, all those people will go or seriously consider going to an international feast in a place with open borders.
I would be interested in going to a conference/symposium hosted by monotheists, in which everyone is invited, food/drink provided, security is guaranteed, witness good conduct / information / brotherhood / trade, even put my view across in a peaceful surrounding if I wish to. Sounds good to me.
Again, you kept silent on why is it "bi/with" and not "ila/to". The former construction, favouring my view.
What silence? I already explained numerous times why ?the debate? cannot be used as a tool to invite everyone. On the other hand, the feast can.
Once again, silence on the "ila/bi" point. It's no big deal though, it was only a small point, but the fact you never mentioned it was surprising, hence bringing it up again.
All I am saying is don?t rush to the conclusion that ?haj? means ?debate? since you haven?t even thought out your basic premise.
I haven't concluded anything. Let me clarify my position for you and all to see at this moment in time, I am of the opinion, that the evidence is weighted in favour of "al hajj" meaning "the conference/symposium/debate", as opposed to other understandings I have seen, including your one of "the feast".
Why are you so worried? As I said, I would leave it to the intelligent reader to decide. If they are too dumb to go back and read for themselves your arguments and instead blindly accept my ?misquoting? then we can?t help them anyway.
I am not worried. Brother Ayman, I asked of you a simple request; you made a claim that I made a circular argument, so I simply asked can you provide evidence for such a claim. Here you evade answering, and did not provide any evidence. Also, you put quotation marks around the word "misquoting" implying that this did not take place, when it clearly did. I will even provide one example below
############## evidence
- Why is the debate best done in the summer? (and please be specific and don't give us fluffy circular answers like "because it is and optimum time in a favourable environment", which beg the question why is it "an optimum time" and why is it "a favourable environment"??)
Etc.
Actually, I did not use a circular argument. Nowhere did I say "debate is best done in the summer" or imply the summer timing gives weight to the hajj=debate meaning. This is your own strawman argument. Your own wording gives it away, not once did I say "because it is and optimum time in a favourable environment" (note words in bold). You are making stuff up I never even said, this is the very definition of a strawman argument.
############# end evidence
Again, I request you provide evidence for your claim I made a circular argument. If you cannot, I expect you to correct your statement and apologise. This is the behaviour I would hope for from a fellow akhi.
I would say that it is the same like any feast. If someone invites you to a 10 day feast at his house and you enjoy the feast and meet people there and conduct business and prosper, there would be no blame on you if you help out with the regular feast activities such as the slaughtering, cooking and cleaning up. In fact, I would add that if you VOLUNTEERED better than this then certainly the hosts would be grateful. So clearly 2158 has to do with volunteering to perform a service and not with eating after some kind of mysterious debate.
I explained above how my view fits with 2158 and doesn?t fit with the meaning of ?debate?. On the other hand, you seem to disregard that the passage says ?whoever volunteers better?, so clearly what came before (?yatawaf bihima?) is ?volunteer work to pay back? and is not ?taking advantage of them? (which already happened during the feast).
Before I comment, is what you said above the exact same understanding as you gave me originally? (as I cant seem to find any difference)
Also, if this is the answer we were all patiently waiting for, why did you not respond to any of the points I brought up, which you said you would?I can translate it but you might claim that my translation is biased. So I will provide a variety of translations since you are unlikely to claim that all those translators conspired with me to produce a ?strawman? argument against you. Also, since you prefer M. ASAD, I will use his translation and substitute your claim that ?haj? means debate and call it the WAKAS translation
.
.
.You did not produce what I requested. I thought I was clear, but I guess not. Let me attempt to clarify again. YOU said your original phrasing examples which you numbered used the "same exact structure" (direct quote) as used in AQ. I felt they did not, so I made a simple request, and first asked where in AQ were those claimed "same exact structure" phrases from in AQ, to which you responded and provided verses. However, I felt those verses did not contain the "same exact structure" as the phrases you originally brought so I clarified/simplified again and made a simple request by laying the Arabic of the verse side by side with your claimed "same exact structure" phrase and asked once you translate the Arabic of the verse for us, we can then see if the Arabic of the verse is the "same exact structure" as your claimed "same exact structure" phrases. You did not do this. Of course, I have an idea as to why you did not do this, but let's leave it to the "intelligent reader" to decide as you say.
In future, if you do not understand a request I make, simply ask me to clarify, I dont mind clarifying.
In fact, like ALL the passages about the "haj", those passages talk about animal livestock and have NOTHING relating to some supposed debate.
Since you keep mentioning this point even though I openly said I haven't even discussed this yet, I will ask a simple question where in 397 does it talk about livestock?
Read three lines up and you will see that 393-94 talk about food and Ibrahim.
So, you admit your earlier seemingly confident claim of "ALL the passages about the "haj", those passages talk about animal livestock" is false? ;D
Firstly, it talks about the laws regarding food, not livestock. Secondly, I recommend everyone to read the context of 397 and see for themselves what the context is. Is it more "livestock" or is it more "debate"? ;D
I hope I don?t have to waste time explaining to you the difference between ?overcoming? and ?convincing?. Also, you are missing what Lane is saying. Lane clearly states that ?haj? means ?argument?. It is not just ?mentioned? in the passing. On the other hand, ?debate? is NEVER mentioned, not even in the passing.
Yes, please do explain the difference to us between "overcoming" and "convincing".
It is not just a possibility. If we take Lane?s meaning and the clear context in the great reading together then there are clearly two different meanings of ?haj? even though they come from the same root, much like ?nifaq? (hypocrisy) and ?infaq? (spending) and ?ibil? (camels) and ?ababil? (flocks), etc. etc.
One can see how Classical Arabic dictionaries provide very confidently the meaning for the ?haj? that consistently means ?argument? but struggle with the other one and don?t really provide a consistent or logical meaning. For the other ?haj?, they range in their meaning from ?intend? to ?make a religious pilgrimage? to ?repair? to ?shaving of the head? and all sorts of guesswork. For example, here is how they attempt to explain their guesswork
?Some say that the former is employed to signify the religious rite and ceremonies of the pilgrimage because they follow the repairing to Mekkeh, or because they are completed by shaving , or because people continue long going to and from to perform them.?
So let me use the same argument you brought against me against you In Classical Arabic dictionaries, nowhere is "feast" found, so it cannot mean "feast".
What else you got? ;D
Unless you disagree that we invite ALL people with the ?haj? then it is a simple matter of deductive reasoning. If ALL people go to the ?debate? then we can easily get hundreds of thousands debating. This is of course unless you think that they are going but not actually participating in ?the debate?.
See above, where I mention the differentiation between HJJ and 3MR.
At this point of our discussion I would like to declare a timeout, so we can both reflect, collect our thoughts, read over what has been written, correct ourselves where necessary, reply to any unanswered questions, research more and thus create a more fruitful learning process.
As always, peace.
- Why is the debate best done in the summer? (and please be specific and don't give us fluffy circular answers like "because it is and optimum time in a favourable environment", which beg the question why is it "an optimum time" and why is it "a favourable environment"??)
-
Peace everyone,
I agree that Ayman's understanding fits better. Mankind can be easily invited with a FEAST/HAJJ where they are fed from LIVESTOCK and while there they can WITNESS THE BENEFITS of a system based on PEACEFULNESS/ISLAM rather than based on debate/argument.
-
Asalaaaaaaaama to the haj debate, i dont realy think it is anything to argue about , 1. when you invite a lot of humanity together they need food, so Allah swt says feed them , and it is also a possible venue to exchange ideas and new tecnologies.
end of debate D
-
Peace Mini,
Asalaaaaaaaama to the haj debate, i dont realy think it is anything to argue about , 1. when you invite a lot of humanity together they need food, so Allah swt says feed them , and it is also a possible venue to exchange ideas and new tecnologies.
end of debateAccording to 2227, the question is not what to invite people "to", it is what to invite people "with". People who have different beliefs will not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas". Usually, such venues only attract like-minded people. On the other hand, everyone is attracted to free food, regardless of their beliefs.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Mini,
According to 2227, the question is not what to invite people "to", it is what to invite people "with". People who have different beliefs will not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas". Usually, such venues only attract like-minded people. On the other hand, everyone is attracted to free food, regardless of their beliefs.
Peace,
Ayman
You might be right. The "feast" idea doesnt seem farfetched.
2227 Call out to people with the Hajj, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure.
2228 So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall God's name in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.
6118 So eat from that on which God's name has been mentioned, if you indeed acknowledge His signs.
6119 Why should you not eat that on which God's name has been mentioned, when He has sufficiently detailed to you what has been made forbidden; except what you are forced to? Many misguide by their desires without knowledge; your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.
6121 Do not eat from what God's name has not been mentioned, for it is vile. The devils inspire their supporters to argue with you; and if you obey them, then you have set up partners.
Mentioning God's name and eating go hand in hand.
-
peace ayman, all,
People who have different beliefs will not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
Have you heard of debate club? Or how about many scientific/clinical conferences in which new information/research/ideas are conveyed even though the audience may hold alternative views? But, not to worry, your absolutist statement is clarified later...
Usually, such venues only attract like-minded people.
Exactly. Admitted by yourself like-minded people. Sounds perfect doesn't it.
Does this forum not attract people with differing beliefs who exchange ideas? If this forum was hosted in a physical venue, would no-one attend according to you or would only like-minded people attend? Can one not be like-minded with others, hold different views and still want to attend a venue to exchange ideas? Is this some sort of cosmological impossibility?
On the other hand, everyone is attracted to free food, regardless of their beliefs.
Well, perhaps not those who are already well fed, have food intolerances/allergies, particular tastes, religious restrictions, etc etc. but everyone else, yes, including people not of like mind, a mish mash of people with no common aim or goal except to partake in free food it seems, then yes you are correct, everyone of this kind.
Is that wrong? No, not necessarily. Is that right? No, not necessarily.
-
We should look at the Bible. "Hag" (mentioned in the Bible) and "Hajj" seem to be the same thing.
Three times a year shall you celebrate for Me a hag (Exodus 2314).
Nearly all translation's which I checked (from http//bible.cc/exodus/23-14.htm, btw) say "feast", and one says "pilgrimage festival".Some more verses
"Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips." (Exodus 2313) Seems to be a parallel to Quran 2228.
"You shall observe the hag of Unleavened Bread; for seven days you are to eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the appointed time in the month Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt. And none shall appear before Me empty-handed. (Exodus 2315)
"Celebrate the Feast of Harvest with the firstfruits of the crops you sow in your field. Celebrate the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in your crops from the field." (Exodus 2316)
"Three times a year all the men are to appear before the Lord God." (Exodus 2317)
"Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast. "The fat of my festival offerings must not be kept until morning." (Exodus 231
Cross-reference to Exodus 1210 'And you shall not leave any of it over until morning, but whatever is left of it until morning, you shall burn with fire.'
"Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God. "Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk." (Exodus 2319)
Anyone have more verses about "hag"?
-
Peace brother Wakas,
Have you heard of debate club? Or how about many scientific/clinical conferences in which new information/research/ideas are conveyed even though the audience may hold alternative views? But, not to worry, your absolutist statement is clarified later...
Exactly. Admitted by yourself like-minded people. Sounds perfect doesn't it.
Does this forum not attract people with differing beliefs who exchange ideas? If this forum was hosted in a physical venue, would no-one attend according to you or would only like-minded people attend? Can one not be like-minded with others, hold different views and still want to attend a venue to exchange ideas? Is this some sort of cosmological impossibility?
Well, perhaps not those who are already well fed, have food intolerances/allergies, particular tastes, religious restrictions, etc etc. but everyone else, yes, including people not of like mind, a mish mash of people with no common aim or goal except to partake in free food it seems, then yes you are correct, everyone of this kind.
Is that wrong? No, not necessarily. Is that right? No, not necessarily.Here is the FM translation of 2228
2228 So that they may witness benefits for themselves, and mention the name of God in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.
Does this sound more like this forum hosted in a physical venue or like a feast?
I am not making any absolutist statement but I am making a statement of what is most likely, which also happens to be the simplest explanation.
Peace,
Ayman
-
peace brother Ayman,
Here is the FM translation of 2228
2228 So that they may witness benefits for themselves, and mention the name of God in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.
Does this sound more like this forum hosted in a physical venue or like a feast?
Interesting response. So, not only do you dodge answering my questions (albeit most were rhetorical), you twist my observation and somehow imply I am equating hajj with this forum hosted in a physical venue. I recommend reading up on the logical fallacy commonly called "strawman argument"
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.htmlI am not making any absolutist statement but I am making a statement of what is most likely, which also happens to be the simplest explanation.
An absolutist/absolute statement is one in which no other interpretation is possible, logically, i.e. no exceptions. You made one. It's ok, it seems you have now clarified and are now making a statement of what is most likely according to you.
In case you missed it...
Absolute statement 1) People who have different beliefs will not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
Absolute statement 2) On the other hand, everyone is attracted to free food, regardless of their beliefs.Corrected to represent what is most accurate
- People who have different beliefs may or may not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
- On the other hand, many people are attracted to free food, regardless of beliefs.
As you and I know both know, making the statements more accurate, doesn't really give your view much weight.
-
Peace Progressive1993
We should look at the Bible. "Hag" (mentioned in the Bible) and "Hajj" seem to be the same thing.
?Three times a year shall you celebrate for Me a hag? (Exodus 2314).
Nearly all translation's which I checked (from http//bible.cc/exodus/23-14.htm, btw) say "feast", and one says "pilgrimage festival".Indeed, Exodus 2314-17 does describe a harvest feast ("hagg". What you need to realize is that everything in the great reading is interconnected. So unlike spinning around some stone cube and kissing a Black Stone which can be done anytime or according to an arbitrary lunar calendar, if you think that "hagg" means "feast" then its timing must coincide with the time of the harvest. The three "hagg" are also in line with the findings on the four inviolable full-moons, the first being a marker for the fast, while the following three are for the feast.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace brother Wakas,
Interesting response. So, not only do you dodge answering my questions (albeit most were rhetorical), you twist my observation and somehow imply I am equating hajj with this forum hosted in a physical venue. I recommend reading up on the logical fallacy commonly called "strawman argument"
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.htmlIt is good then that I didn't waste your time in answering rhetorical questions.
I didn't say that you were equating this forum with "hajj". You used the example of this forum which is a venue for debate (according to you "hajj" means "debate". I used the example of a feast. I simply pointed out which example is more likely to fit the clear purposes outlined in 2228. Instead of bringing a counter argument and trying to dispute that my example fits better, you abandon your example.
At any rate, if you think the example of this debate forum is weak and therefore I am using it to build a strawman, then simply bring a strong example instead of just complaining about a foul.
An absolutist/absolute statement is one in which no other interpretation is possible, logically, i.e. no exceptions. You made one. It's ok, it seems you have now clarified and are now making a statement of what is most likely according to you.
In case you missed it...
Absolute statement 1) People who have different beliefs will not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
Absolute statement 2) On the other hand, everyone is attracted to free food, regardless of their beliefs.
Corrected to represent what is most accurate- People who have different beliefs may or may not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
- On the other hand, many people are attracted to free food, regardless of beliefs.
As you and I know both know, making the statements more accurate, doesn't really give your view much weight.
No, I don't know because it sounds pretty strong to me. jedi
Peace,
Ayman
-
peace brother Ayman,
I did not abandon my example, nor did I fail to bring a counter argument, I pointed out you brought a strawman argument. Logical fallacies (e.g. strawman argument) require no response other than to point them out as a logical fallacy.
No, I don't know because it sounds pretty strong to me.
"pretty strong" is a significant step down from an absolutist statement. Buy hey, I'm not complaining, everyone is entitled to their own subjective opinion and to think of it as evidence. I'm just glad you eventually climbed down and admitted it.
I desire no more than to set right what I was able to; but the achievement of my aim depends on God alone. In Him have I placed my trust, and unto Him do I always turn.
-
One jew told me that the 'hag' word comin from 'lyahug' (spin around sacrifice altars or somethin...)
-
One jew told me that the 'hag' word comin from 'lyahug' (spin around sacrifice altars or somethin...)
According to Gesenius? A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, the Hebrew equivalent is hag (Hebrew script here). The verb means ?to make a pilgrimage? or ?to keep a pilgrim-feast? (see for example Moses in Exodus 51, 109). In the noun form it has the same meaning; additionally, the hag also refers to the Feast of Booths, to which we will come back later. It is also possible that the root hoog (Hebrew script here = to go around, to go in a circle) in North as well as South Semitic languages is connected with it.
(From http//www.universalunity.net/Salat_And_Hajj.htm)
-
I have read this thread and agree that feast is the best vehicle to invite people of diverse culture and interest with but such a uni-dimensional meaning creates a problem so a more comprehensive meaning that will be inclusive of feast and something that will lead to the realization and the accomplishment of witnessing the benefit of the god?s guidance should be researched into, so, brother Ayman has the following clarification to make for me.
1, looking at verses 2196-205, why should the poor ones who have not the wherewithal to donate to the feast be made to abstain from enjoying the free food, if hajj solely means feast, the very people that it would have been meaningful to, meanwhile we told in verse 2228 to feed the poor from it?
2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?
3, why should free food bother others? What havoc can it cause, to warrant some people to prevent others from organizing it or from inviting others to it or even from attending it?
4, how can free food translate in making people becoming a monotheist? Have you by chance in your life time personally invite people to a feast? If yes, realistically speaking what does it translate into?
5, I might sound repetitive here, why should the god say there is no blame on you if you pass by them i.e. the animal lined up for slaughter if hajj solely means feast as in 2158?
6, what are the good examples of monotheistic community that will easily be discernible in 2, 3 to 10 days by simply observing the community to bring about any convincing in person to become a monotheist?
7, do you believe that when the god says in 228, that the purpose of inviting mankind with the hajj/feast is to witness benefit for themselves that the benefit is primary the benefit of the god guidance? And that the second benefit is to remember the name of the god over what He has provided for them of cattle in known days is to eat with realization that what they are eating are within the allowing decrees of the god i.e. there are not the forbidden, there are permissible by the god. . -
I have read this thread and agree that feast is the best vehicle to invite people of diverse culture and interest with but such a uni-dimensional meaning creates a problem so a more comprehensive meaning that will be inclusive of feast and something that will lead to the realization and the accomplishment of witnessing the benefit of the god?s guidance should be researched into, so, brother Ayman has the following clarification to make for me.
1, looking at verses 2196-205, why should the poor ones who have not the wherewithal to donate to the feast be made to abstain from enjoying the free food, if hajj solely means feast, the very people that it would have been meaningful to, meanwhile we told in verse 2228 to feed the poor from it?
2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?
3, why should free food bother others? What havoc can it cause, to warrant some people to prevent others from organizing it or from inviting others to it or even from attending it?
4, how can free food translate in making people becoming a monotheist? Have you by chance in your life time personally invite people to a feast? If yes, realistically speaking what does it translate into?
5, I might sound repetitive here, why should the god say there is no blame on you if you pass by them i.e. the animal lined up for slaughter if hajj solely means feast as in 2158?
6, what are the good examples of monotheistic community that will easily be discernible in 2, 3 to 10 days by simply observing the community to bring about any convincing in person to become a monotheist?
7, do you believe that when the god says in 228, that the purpose of inviting mankind with the hajj/feast is to witness benefit for themselves that the benefit is primary the benefit of the god guidance? And that the second benefit is to remember the name of the god over what He has provided for them of cattle in known days is to eat with realization that what they are eating are within the allowing decrees of the god i.e. there are not the forbidden, there are permissible by the god. .That's why I think that 'festival' is a better translation, as it covers all the aspects of the hajj.
-
Peace brother Wakas,
I did not abandon my example, nor did I fail to bring a counter argument, I pointed out you brought a strawman argument. Logical fallacies (e.g. strawman argument) require no response other than to point them out as a logical fallacy.
"pretty strong" is a significant step down from an absolutist statement. Buy hey, I'm not complaining, everyone is entitled to their own subjective opinion and to think of it as evidence. I'm just glad you eventually climbed down and admitted it.
I desire no more than to set right what I was able to; but the achievement of my aim depends on God alone. In Him have I placed my trust, and unto Him do I always turn.I did climb down a while ago from my earlier false interpretation of "debate" (now yours) and adopted the better and simpler interpretation of "feast". Perhaps you should try to consider Occam's Razor.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Kaamil,
I have read this thread and agree that feast is the best vehicle to invite people of diverse culture and interest with but such a uni-dimensional meaning creates a problem so a more comprehensive meaning that will be inclusive of feast and something that will lead to the realization and the accomplishment of witnessing the benefit of the god?s guidance should be researched into, so, brother Ayman has the following clarification to make for me.
You make some good points. Thanks.
1, looking at verses 2196-205, why should the poor ones who have not the wherewithal to donate to the feast be made to abstain from enjoying the free food, if hajj solely means feast, the very people that it would have been meaningful to, meanwhile we told in verse 2228 to feed the poor from it?
Abstinence is only during the daylight hours. This is not an issue and we actually see that during fasting every day at sunset people have big feasts at mosques and on the streets where free food is provided. Also, the command to fast in 2196 is given to those who PROSPERED as a result of the feast, so this certainly doesn't apply to the poor.
2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?
It can ONLY have to do with the feast. Why do cooks or food handlers cover their hair? The command to not cut hair during the feast and wait until the food has reached its destination is entirely normal.
Now Wakas's turn. What does cutting the hair have to do with a "debate"?
3, why should free food bother others? What havoc can it cause, to warrant some people to prevent others from organizing it or from inviting others to it or even from attending it?
Why do you think countries have visas and border control?
4, how can free food translate in making people becoming a monotheist? Have you by chance in your life time personally invite people to a feast? If yes, realistically speaking what does it translate into?
Who said anything about people becoming monotheists?
5, I might sound repetitive here, why should the god say there is no blame on you if you pass by them i.e. the animal lined up for slaughter if hajj solely means feast as in 2158?
Some people may consider animal sacrifice as a pagan custom.
6, what are the good examples of monotheistic community that will easily be discernible in 2, 3 to 10 days by simply observing the community to bring about any convincing in person to become a monotheist?
Let's try it and see.
7, do you believe that when the god says in 228, that the purpose of inviting mankind with the hajj/feast is to witness benefit for themselves that the benefit is primary the benefit of the god guidance? And that the second benefit is to remember the name of the god over what He has provided for them of cattle in known days is to eat with realization that what they are eating are within the allowing decrees of the god i.e. there are not the forbidden, there are permissible by the god.
The benefits are benefits "for them". So this will depend on the person.
Peace,
Ayman
-
2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?
It can ONLY have to do with the feast. Why do cooks or food handlers cover their hair? The command to not cut hair during the feast and wait until the food has reached its destination is entirely normal.
rotfl, but that could be the relevance of it if hajj means "feast".
