hajj / feast / debate

Wakas

peace brother Ayman,

Here is the FM translation of 2228

2228 So that they may witness benefits for themselves, and mention the name of God in the appointed days over what He has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor.

Does this sound more like this forum hosted in a physical venue or like a feast?

Interesting response. So, not only do you dodge answering my questions (albeit most were rhetorical), you twist my observation and somehow imply I am equating hajj with this forum hosted in a physical venue. I recommend reading up on the logical fallacy commonly called "strawman argument"
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

I am not making any absolutist statement but I am making a statement of what is most likely, which also happens to be the simplest explanation.

An absolutist/absolute statement is one in which no other interpretation is possible, logically, i.e. no exceptions. You made one. It's ok, it seems you have now clarified and are now making a statement of what is most likely according to you.

In case you missed it...
Absolute statement 1) People who have different beliefs will not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
Absolute statement 2) On the other hand, everyone is attracted to free food, regardless of their beliefs.

Corrected to represent what is most accurate

People who have different beliefs may or may not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
On the other hand, many people are attracted to free food, regardless of beliefs.

As you and I know both know, making the statements more accurate, doesn't really give your view much weight.

ayman

Peace Progressive1993

We should look at the Bible. "Hag" (mentioned in the Bible) and "Hajj" seem to be the same thing.

?Three times a year shall you celebrate for Me a hag? (Exodus 2314).
Nearly all translation's which I checked (from http//bible.cc/exodus/23-14.htm, btw) say "feast", and one says "pilgrimage festival".

Indeed, Exodus 2314-17 does describe a harvest feast ("hagg&quot. What you need to realize is that everything in the great reading is interconnected. So unlike spinning around some stone cube and kissing a Black Stone which can be done anytime or according to an arbitrary lunar calendar, if you think that "hagg" means "feast" then its timing must coincide with the time of the harvest. The three "hagg" are also in line with the findings on the four inviolable full-moons, the first being a marker for the fast, while the following three are for the feast.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

Interesting response. So, not only do you dodge answering my questions (albeit most were rhetorical), you twist my observation and somehow imply I am equating hajj with this forum hosted in a physical venue. I recommend reading up on the logical fallacy commonly called "strawman argument"
http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

It is good then that I didn't waste your time in answering rhetorical questions.

I didn't say that you were equating this forum with "hajj". You used the example of this forum which is a venue for debate (according to you "hajj" means "debate&quot. I used the example of a feast. I simply pointed out which example is more likely to fit the clear purposes outlined in 2228. Instead of bringing a counter argument and trying to dispute that my example fits better, you abandon your example.

At any rate, if you think the example of this debate forum is weak and therefore I am using it to build a strawman, then simply bring a strong example instead of just complaining about a foul.

An absolutist/absolute statement is one in which no other interpretation is possible, logically, i.e. no exceptions. You made one. It's ok, it seems you have now clarified and are now making a statement of what is most likely according to you.
In case you missed it...
Absolute statement 1) People who have different beliefs will not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
Absolute statement 2) On the other hand, everyone is attracted to free food, regardless of their beliefs.
Corrected to represent what is most accurate

People who have different beliefs may or may not travel to a venue to "exchange ideas".
On the other hand, many people are attracted to free food, regardless of beliefs.
As you and I know both know, making the statements more accurate, doesn't really give your view much weight.

No, I don't know because it sounds pretty strong to me. jedi

Peace,

Ayman

Wakas

peace brother Ayman,

I did not abandon my example, nor did I fail to bring a counter argument, I pointed out you brought a strawman argument. Logical fallacies (e.g. strawman argument) require no response other than to point them out as a logical fallacy.

No, I don't know because it sounds pretty strong to me.

"pretty strong" is a significant step down from an absolutist statement. Buy hey, I'm not complaining, everyone is entitled to their own subjective opinion and to think of it as evidence. I'm just glad you eventually climbed down and admitted it.

I desire no more than to set right what I was able to; but the achievement of my aim depends on God alone. In Him have I placed my trust, and unto Him do I always turn.

Ibrahim-Khalil

One jew told me that the 'hag' word comin from 'lyahug' (spin around sacrifice altars or somethin...)

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

One jew told me that the 'hag' word comin from 'lyahug' (spin around sacrifice altars or somethin...)

According to Gesenius? A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, the Hebrew equivalent is hag (Hebrew script here). The verb means ?to make a pilgrimage? or ?to keep a pilgrim-feast? (see for example Moses in Exodus 51, 109). In the noun form it has the same meaning; additionally, the hag also refers to the Feast of Booths, to which we will come back later. It is also possible that the root hoog (Hebrew script here = to go around, to go in a circle) in North as well as South Semitic languages is connected with it.

(From http//www.universalunity.net/Salat_And_Hajj.htm)

kaamil

I have read this thread and agree that feast is the best vehicle to invite people of diverse culture and interest with but such a uni-dimensional meaning creates a problem so a more comprehensive meaning that will be inclusive of feast and something that will lead to the realization and the accomplishment of witnessing the benefit of the god?s guidance should be researched into, so, brother Ayman has the following clarification to make for me.
1, looking at verses 2196-205, why should the poor ones who have not the wherewithal to donate to the feast be made to abstain from enjoying the free food, if hajj solely means feast, the very people that it would have been meaningful to, meanwhile we told in verse 2228 to feed the poor from it?
2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?
3, why should free food bother others? What havoc can it cause, to warrant some people to prevent others from organizing it or from inviting others to it or even from attending it?
4, how can free food translate in making people becoming a monotheist? Have you by chance in your life time personally invite people to a feast? If yes, realistically speaking what does it translate into?
5, I might sound repetitive here, why should the god say there is no blame on you if you pass by them i.e. the animal lined up for slaughter if hajj solely means feast as in 2158?
6, what are the good examples of monotheistic community that will easily be discernible in 2, 3 to 10 days by simply observing the community to bring about any convincing in person to become a monotheist?
7, do you believe that when the god says in 228, that the purpose of inviting mankind with the hajj/feast is to witness benefit for themselves that the benefit is primary the benefit of the god guidance? And that the second benefit is to remember the name of the god over what He has provided for them of cattle in known days is to eat with realization that what they are eating are within the allowing decrees of the god i.e. there are not the forbidden, there are permissible by the god. .

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

I have read this thread and agree that feast is the best vehicle to invite people of diverse culture and interest with but such a uni-dimensional meaning creates a problem so a more comprehensive meaning that will be inclusive of feast and something that will lead to the realization and the accomplishment of witnessing the benefit of the god?s guidance should be researched into, so, brother Ayman has the following clarification to make for me.
1, looking at verses 2196-205, why should the poor ones who have not the wherewithal to donate to the feast be made to abstain from enjoying the free food, if hajj solely means feast, the very people that it would have been meaningful to, meanwhile we told in verse 2228 to feed the poor from it?
2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?
3, why should free food bother others? What havoc can it cause, to warrant some people to prevent others from organizing it or from inviting others to it or even from attending it?
4, how can free food translate in making people becoming a monotheist? Have you by chance in your life time personally invite people to a feast? If yes, realistically speaking what does it translate into?
5, I might sound repetitive here, why should the god say there is no blame on you if you pass by them i.e. the animal lined up for slaughter if hajj solely means feast as in 2158?
6, what are the good examples of monotheistic community that will easily be discernible in 2, 3 to 10 days by simply observing the community to bring about any convincing in person to become a monotheist?
7, do you believe that when the god says in 228, that the purpose of inviting mankind with the hajj/feast is to witness benefit for themselves that the benefit is primary the benefit of the god guidance? And that the second benefit is to remember the name of the god over what He has provided for them of cattle in known days is to eat with realization that what they are eating are within the allowing decrees of the god i.e. there are not the forbidden, there are permissible by the god. .

That's why I think that 'festival' is a better translation, as it covers all the aspects of the hajj.

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

I did not abandon my example, nor did I fail to bring a counter argument, I pointed out you brought a strawman argument. Logical fallacies (e.g. strawman argument) require no response other than to point them out as a logical fallacy.
"pretty strong" is a significant step down from an absolutist statement. Buy hey, I'm not complaining, everyone is entitled to their own subjective opinion and to think of it as evidence. I'm just glad you eventually climbed down and admitted it.
I desire no more than to set right what I was able to; but the achievement of my aim depends on God alone. In Him have I placed my trust, and unto Him do I always turn.

I did climb down a while ago from my earlier false interpretation of "debate" (now yours) and adopted the better and simpler interpretation of "feast". Perhaps you should try to consider Occam's Razor.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Kaamil,

I have read this thread and agree that feast is the best vehicle to invite people of diverse culture and interest with but such a uni-dimensional meaning creates a problem so a more comprehensive meaning that will be inclusive of feast and something that will lead to the realization and the accomplishment of witnessing the benefit of the god?s guidance should be researched into, so, brother Ayman has the following clarification to make for me.

You make some good points. Thanks.

1, looking at verses 2196-205, why should the poor ones who have not the wherewithal to donate to the feast be made to abstain from enjoying the free food, if hajj solely means feast, the very people that it would have been meaningful to, meanwhile we told in verse 2228 to feed the poor from it?

Abstinence is only during the daylight hours. This is not an issue and we actually see that during fasting every day at sunset people have big feasts at mosques and on the streets where free food is provided. Also, the command to fast in 2196 is given to those who PROSPERED as a result of the feast, so this certainly doesn't apply to the poor.

2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?

It can ONLY have to do with the feast. Why do cooks or food handlers cover their hair? The command to not cut hair during the feast and wait until the food has reached its destination is entirely normal.

Now Wakas's turn. What does cutting the hair have to do with a "debate"?

3, why should free food bother others? What havoc can it cause, to warrant some people to prevent others from organizing it or from inviting others to it or even from attending it?

Why do you think countries have visas and border control?

4, how can free food translate in making people becoming a monotheist? Have you by chance in your life time personally invite people to a feast? If yes, realistically speaking what does it translate into?

Who said anything about people becoming monotheists?

5, I might sound repetitive here, why should the god say there is no blame on you if you pass by them i.e. the animal lined up for slaughter if hajj solely means feast as in 2158?

Some people may consider animal sacrifice as a pagan custom.

6, what are the good examples of monotheistic community that will easily be discernible in 2, 3 to 10 days by simply observing the community to bring about any convincing in person to become a monotheist?

Let's try it and see.

7, do you believe that when the god says in 228, that the purpose of inviting mankind with the hajj/feast is to witness benefit for themselves that the benefit is primary the benefit of the god guidance? And that the second benefit is to remember the name of the god over what He has provided for them of cattle in known days is to eat with realization that what they are eating are within the allowing decrees of the god i.e. there are not the forbidden, there are permissible by the god.

The benefits are benefits "for them". So this will depend on the person.

Peace,

Ayman

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?

It can ONLY have to do with the feast. Why do cooks or food handlers cover their hair? The command to not cut hair during the feast and wait until the food has reached its destination is entirely normal.

rotfl, but that could be the relevance of it if hajj means "feast".

Wakas

peace Kaamil, all,

Thank you for your contribution. Personally, I have not studied the topic of HJJ in detail, as stated in this thread. This entire thread sprang from my questions regarding Ayman's understanding and interpretation of 2158 which to this day still remain unanswered (see post #20 in this thread). Thus, I felt no need to run the understanding of "feast" through the rest of AQ to see what other flaws it had, if any.

1, looking at verses 2196-205, why should the poor ones who have not the wherewithal to donate to the feast be made to abstain from enjoying the free food, if hajj solely means feast, the very people that it would have been meaningful to, meanwhile we told in verse 2228 to feed the poor from it?

Good point. I strongly recommend you and readers to insert the understanding of "feast" and "prosper" in 2196 to see if it makes sense. And once you have done this, then re-read Ayman's reply to your question to see if his answers make sense. Let us know the outcome.
See here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9022.msg48647#msg48647

2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?

Again, please repeat the same procedure as I outlined above and let us know the outcome.

As a side note, I have discussed the hair cutting/shaving interpretation quite a lot in this forum, if you wish to read them, e.g
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8807.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8807.msg49208#msg49208
Although, having said that, I am not averse to the interpretation of shaving/cutting hair IF the evidence suggests it. As it makes no difference to my view, however in Ayman's reply he confuses the sequence of events yet again. As I said, please follow the procedure above and let us know the outcome.

Your point 3, is a decent observation. Similarly, same with your point 4. There are many HJJ verses discussing "do HJJ/3MR for God, observe XYZ regulation for God, be aware of God, remember God" etc. It clearly has a significant God/believer/faith component.

Your point 5 is pretty much the same question I asked Ayman regarding 2158 (see post #20, which I'm sure you have already read).

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

however in Ayman's reply he confuses the sequence of events yet again. As I said, please follow the procedure above and let us know the outcome.

Why don't you tell us exactly what your sequence of events for "hajj" is in steps 1, 2, 3... so that we can see how both our sequence of events align with the great reading?

Peace,

Ayman

Wakas

peace Ayman,

Brother, if a person does not answer my questions after months of discussion, I'm not going to answer theirs. As a side note, I have never read any article discussing the sequence of events regarding HJJ, including from you. Thus, in order for me to present such a sequence would require significant levels of study.

But I will help you out on this point about sequence which I referred to, in case it was not clear from what I said. Let me re-cap

2, what relevance does cutting of hair has to do feast?

It can ONLY have to do with the feast. Why do cooks or food handlers cover their hair? The command to not cut hair during the feast and wait until the food has reached its destination is entirely normal.

Cooks and food handlers cover their hair for hygienic practices, so no stray hairs or the contaminents in hair go on/into the food. Your sequence is AFTER finished handling the offering (e.g. food), i.e. AFTER it has reached its destination, the person THEN shaves/cuts his hair. As everyone can see your sequence does not fit, as the hair is free/uncovered when handling the food. If I have misunderstood you, then please clarify.

As I recommended to readers earlier, they should insert "feast" and "prosper" into 2196, 2158 and other verses to see if this understanding makes any sense. I am of the view it clearly does not, with the evidence presented thus far.

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

Brother, if a person does not answer my questions after months of discussion, I'm not going to answer theirs. As a side note, I have never read any article discussing the sequence of events regarding HJJ, including from you. Thus, in order for me to present such a sequence would require significant levels of study.

What I am saying is that this is what is needed. I have started to think about the sequence and putting it together from my end. It would help if you do the same. This should answer most questions, I hope.

But I will help you out on this point about sequence which I referred to, in case it was not clear from what I said. Let me re-cap

Cooks and food handlers cover their hair for hygienic practices, so no stray hairs or the contaminents in hair go on/into the food. Your sequence is AFTER finished handling the offering (e.g. food), i.e. AFTER it has reached its destination, the person THEN shaves/cuts his hair. As everyone can see your sequence does not fit, as the hair is free/uncovered when handling the food. If I have misunderstood you, then please clarify.
As I recommended to readers earlier, they should insert "feast" and "prosper" into 2196, 2158 and other verses to see if this understanding makes any sense. I am of the view it clearly does not, with the evidence presented thus far.

Great so at least you admit that hair is definitely an issue when it comes to food. Your objection is due to your misunderstanding of the sequence and my example. The fact is that we are told not to cut the hair until after the food has reached its destination. So this means that we don't cut our hair while the food is being cooked and served. If you cut your hair while cooking or serving food then your hair will certainly get in the food. Do you ever see any cooks or food handler cut their hair while they are serving food? I hope not. They cover their hair and they don't even touch it, let alone cut it.

Peace,

Ayman

Wakas

peace brother Ayman,

Great so at least you admit that hair is definitely an issue when it comes to food.

Hair is one of many issues when it comes to food.

But thanks for your explanation. I'm glad AQ points out things like do not cut your hair whilst cooking or serving food, cause you know how many get that wrong these days eh ;D

afridi220

Ok i will not cut my hair but why restrain from sex what sex has to do with feast. confused

Whoever shall execute the Hajj in them (the specified months) shall refrain from sexual intercourse, misconduct and arguments" 2197
peace

ayman

Peace Afridi220,

Ok i will not cut my hair but why restrain from sex what sex has to do with feast. confused
Whoever shall execute the Hajj in them (the specified months) shall refrain from sexual intercourse, misconduct and arguments" 2197
peace

It is like when you go for dinner at someone's house or people come for dinner at your house. Do you sneak with your wife to one of the rooms and have sexual intercourse? Also, the feast is not a place for misbehaving or the right venue for debate/"jidal".

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

Hair is one of many issues when it comes to food.
But thanks for your explanation. I'm glad AQ points out things like do not cut your hair whilst cooking or serving food, cause you know how many get that wrong these days eh ;D

Now people are more aware of those things. By the way, you still haven't answered what cutting the hair has to do with debate. If you think that it doesn't mean "cutting the hair" then how do you explain that those who have a disease with their heads are given permission to do it.

Peace,

Ayman

kaamil

peace brother Ayman,

Peace Kaamil,

You make some good points. Thanks.

Abstinence is only during the daylight hours. This is not an issue and we actually see that during fasting every day at sunset people have big feasts at mosques and on the streets where free food is provided. Also, the command to fast in 2196 is given to those who PROSPERED as a result of the feast, so this certainly doesn't apply to the poor
.

The question is why should people abstain in known days that is declared to be feast? Secondly, the verse read and I quote in part ?But when you are secured, then whoever continues the visit until the hajj, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who
cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the
Pilgrimaged seven when he returns; this will make a complete
ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Restricted
Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in
Retribution?.

From this verse it is clear that the person who cannot afford a donation at the hajj/feast is to abstain, why should this be so? Where do you get even remotely from here that it those who proper as a result of the hajj/feast that are to abstain? What prosperity can you make from feast other than eating to your fill?

It can ONLY have to do with the feast. Why do cooks or food handlers cover their hair? The command to not cut hair during the feast and wait until the food has reached its destination is entirely normal.

Now Wakas's turn. What does cutting the hair have to do with a "debate"?

Looking at verse 2196 and 4825, the command to not shave the head applies only in situation where your donation is prevented from reaching its destination. The context is that of war when verse 2196 is compared with verse 4825, it is only in the context of war that we are to shave our head when the donation eventually reaches it destination to signal a return to a peaceful state and an appreciation to the god the almighty that He has finally make His system prevail against the rejected by giving victory to the faithful. Can you shave when you at war? And it is also clear from verse 2196 that we are not to shave our head in an unhindered hajj. The inflection point ?when you are secured/in safety? is there for you to see again, from that point the god didn?t mention again that we should cut our hair. So cutting of hair and not cutting of hair only relates to war context.

Why do you think countries have visas and border control?

So the rejecters are right in preventing the messenger from organizing the feast or from attending the feast?

Who said anything about people becoming monotheists?

You said and I quote, ?Do you agree that if a community doesn't setup partners with the god then it will prosper and be a model community? If yes then people who visit this community will like it and will aspire to do the same.? Now over to you again what will they aspire to be?

Some people may consider animal sacrifice as a pagan custom.

RELIGION offering to god an offering to honor or appease a god, especially of a ritually slaughtered animal or person

If you invite people to a feast the animal you slaughtered to entertain them do you consider it animal sacrifice?
Your reply is even besides the question, the god is saying there is no blame on you if you pass by them, not the animal is good for you to eat. Implicit in that statement is that we should not make food preparation or eating of food the object of our attention so we may invite with the feast but it is not the sole or primary purpose.
A very fundamental question here, is there any distinction between inviting with the feast and inviting to the feast? If any what is the distinction?

The benefits are benefits "for them". So this will depend on the person.

Peace,

Ayman

Except and until you know what benefit the god wants them to witness for themselves, you will remain elusive as to what proper role to play as an invitee or host. This is basically my contention. This is the more reason why I believe that translating hajj solely as feast and making everything about it to revolve around feast is somewhat problematic.
Thanks a lot for bringing up this new meaning of hajj as feast, your effort is commendable it is truly amazing how you always look keenly into things like this, yes it may fit in all the passages of the great reading where it occurred but it may not accomplish its purpose of witnessing benefit for themselves.