Bakkah
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Peace Rev.John,
This is only partly true. Many very early churches were built on the sites of old pagan temples that did face the sunrise, but later ones were built with the alter in the east so the congregation (and Priest when in prayer) would be facing the so-called "Holy Land" where Jesus was born and died. In the west, of course, both the sunrise and the holy land are in almost the same direction. This is also a throw back from western Judaism where Synagogues face east to the site of Salomon's Temple.
It is not just the apse of early churches that followed pagan traditions, much of Christianity's symbols have their roots in paganism. Throughout the ancient world, people venerated fertility idols which had a connection to the sun. The direction of the winter sunrise, as in the early churches apse and in the placement of the Black Stone in Mecca, marks the location of the annual rebirth of the pagan fertility idol. This is also why the birth celebrations of the newborn idol took place around the winter solstice. In the Roman Empire this pagan birth celebration took place precisely on December 25th (now called Christmas). So this is certainly not an isolated case of the apse of early churches being accidently oriented to the winter sunrise but is part of a pattern of delibrate and concerted adoption of pagan symbolism and beliefs into so-called Christianity.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Rev.John,
It is not just the apse of early churches that followed pagan traditions, much of Christianity's symbols have their roots in paganism. Throughout the ancient world, people venerated fertility idols which had a connection to the sun. The direction of the winter sunrise, as in the early churches apse and in the placement of the Black Stone in Mecca, marks the location of the annual rebirth of the pagan fertility idol. This is also why the birth celebrations of the newborn idol took place around the winter solstice. In the Roman Empire this pagan birth celebration took place precisely on December 25th (now called Christmas). So this is certainly not an isolated case of the apse of early churches being accidently oriented to the winter sunrise but is part of a pattern of delibrate and concerted adoption of pagan symbolism and beliefs into so-called Christianity.
Peace,
Ayman
whatever
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Dear Ayman
Do not avoid these two questions.
What is your source which says that
Macca = Destruction
Secondly ,it is being used as Diptote in the Quran.What is the reason for this use ?
{I hope this time you know what the diptote is }
Regardswe also hope you use your own brian this time instead of relying on authorities. welcome back welcome
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whatever
I guess you knew that!
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Perhaps it is vague about location because the specific location is irrelevant?
Just a thought.
Peace
So you are of the opinion that Quran is "Vague" about location ?
Very strange statement about the book which claims to be "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun"
Mecca is on the surface of the earth ,a historical city. If you do not know it does not mean the Quran is vague.Regards
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QS,
Does The Quran tell us how to brush our teeth? If you answer no, can I then say this is strange for a book that calls itself "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun"? Of course, any person capable of using their logic will know The Quran saying it is clear or distinguishing/detailed means almost nothing unless we know with regard to what. Once we know with regard to what, then we can contemplate on your point to see if it has any relevance. So tell us QS, if The Quran says it is "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun", what is it with regard to?
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QS,
Does The Quran tell us how to brush our teeth? If you answer no, can I then say this is strange for a book that calls itself "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun"? Of course, any person capable of using their logic will know The Quran saying it is clear or distinguishing/detailed means almost nothing unless we know with regard to what. Once we know with regard to what, then we can contemplate on your point to see if it has any relevance. So tell us QS, if The Quran says it is "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun", what is it with regard to?
Peace Brother
Wrong /absolutely Wrong example.
Did Quran mention about brushing of teeth ?
But Quran has definitely talked about Mecca ?
How can you compare" mentioned " and "unmentioned " facts .It is just like comparing mangoes with Horses.
Mecca is a well known historical city.Quran did not need to tell its location.It is not a book of Geography.
"9/11 terrorism occured in USA ." Does this statement need to tell where and what USA is ?
The Al-Quran is not vague but our minds which are vague.But we put the blame of our lack of understanding on the Quran.
Unfortunately common sense is very uncommon.
Regards -
Ahh, it seems that according to you everything it mentions it details is this your position?
So if it mentions slaughtering of animals, it provides all the how and what with etc? If you answer no, then is your position it provides extra info to the extent that is necessary to fulfil the goal/objective?
Thus, I'd assume you would argue Mecca (as in the place), since it allegedly mentions it, that is enough to fulfil all that is involved with it?
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Ahh, it seems that according to you everything it mentions it details is this your position?
So if it mentions slaughtering of animals, it provides all the how and what with etc? If you answer no, then is your position it provides extra info to the extent that is necessary to fulfil the goal/objective?
Thus, I'd assume you would argue Mecca (as in the place), since it allegedly mentions it, that is enough to fulfil all that is involved with it?
Peace Brother
Instead of putting question first decide "Is Mecca not existant on the surface of the Earth ?
Do not circumvent the basic issue please
Regards -
Ahh, so it is I who is circumventing?
For sake of argument, let me answer your question yes, there exists a place called Mecca on the surface of the earth.
So, now answer my question, when Al Quran claims it is "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun" (according to you), what is it with regard to?
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Ahh, so it is I who is circumventing?
For sake of argument, let me answer your question yes, there exists a place called Mecca on the surface of the earth.
So, now answer my question, when Al Quran claims it is "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun" (according to you), what is it with regard to?
Peace
You admitted that Mecca exists on the surface of the Earth.It means Quran is not Vague as you are claiming.
And it is the answer to your Question.Its lack of vagueness is "Tibyaanun li kulli Shain".
So please stop blaming the Quran.
Regards -
QS statement 1 You admitted that Mecca exists on the surface of the Earth.
QS statement 2 It means Quran is not Vague as you are claiming.Statement 1 is not necessarily related to statement 2. Please establish the connection first before drawing a conclusion.
And you did not answer my question, which I will re-quote
When Al Quran claims it is "Tibyaanan likulli shaian" and "Kitaabun mufassalun" (according to you), what is it with regard to?My question is relatively simple, yet you avoid it. If you do not answer, I will assume you have no answer.
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On the other hand, the common noun "hajj" has nothing to do with the above and was first used by the people of the book to mean "feast". Please see the following discussion on this matter
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597976.0
So essentially, like Christians who continued their pagan traditions under new Christianized names such as Christmas, Muslims too continued their pagan traditions by borrowing common nouns from the great reading to name their pagan idols and rituals.
Ayman, I agree with you on the last statement, and it is actually not a big deal..
For every nations/people (arabicUmmat) We have appointed them rites (arabicmansakh) which they shall perform.
Do not dispute with them concerning the matter. Instead invite them to your Lord; surely, you are upon a Straight Path.
If they argue with you, say 'God knows best all that you do.
On the Day of Resurrection, God will judge between you concerning that in which you vary.
-- Quran, Al-Hajj, 67-69Perhaps; Muhammad is following the verse shown above. Instead of 'abolishing' the arab pagan/native practices, he just changes the meanings of it. Thus no longer pay homage to idols housed within cubicle structure in mecca but pay homage to the one true God, but still in mecca. The christians also does the same thing in europe, rather abolishing the pagan practices, they just changes the meanings of it..
The arabs can continue their rites in mekka, just like the jews in jerusalem, the japanese in mt fuji, the indians in himalayas/gangga river and so forth.. Thus it is said Hajj / thanks giving feast to God is within months well known by each people.. (although it is not necessarily the same time and place for every people).
Do not dispute with them concerning the rites, but invite them to the one true God, The Maintainer Of All Universes.
Salam / Peace
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Works for me.
Ayman, I agree with you on the last statement, and it is actually not a big deal..
For every nations/people (arabicUmmat) We have appointed them rites (arabicmansakh) which they shall perform.
Do not dispute with them concerning the matter. Instead invite them to your Lord; surely, you are upon a Straight Path.
If they argue with you, say 'God knows best all that you do.
On the Day of Resurrection, God will judge between you concerning that in which you vary.
-- Quran, Al-Hajj, 67-69Perhaps; Muhammad is following the verse shown above. Instead of 'abolishing' the arab pagan/native practices, he just changes the meanings of it. Thus no longer pay homage to idols housed within cubicle structure in mecca but pay homage to the one true God, but still in mecca. The christians also does the same thing in europe, rather abolishing the pagan practices, they just changes the meanings of it..
The arabs can continue their rites in mekka, just like the jews in jerusalem, the japanese in mt fuji, the indians in himalayas/gangga river and so forth.. Thus it is said Hajj / thanks giving feast to God is within months well known by each people.. (although it is not necessarily the same time and place for every people).
Do not dispute with them concerning the rites, but invite them to the one true God, The Maintainer Of All Universes.
Salam / Peace
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Peace Jafar,
Ayman, I agree with you on the last statement, and it is actually not a big deal..
For every nations/people (arabicUmmat) We have appointed them rites (arabicmansakh) which they shall perform.
Do not dispute with them concerning the matter. Instead invite them to your Lord; surely, you are upon a Straight Path.
If they argue with you, say 'God knows best all that you do.
On the Day of Resurrection, God will judge between you concerning that in which you vary.
-- Quran, Al-Hajj, 67-69
Perhaps; Muhammad is following the verse shown above. Instead of 'abolishing' the arab pagan/native practices, he just changes the meanings of it. Thus no longer pay homage to idols housed within cubicle structure in mecca but pay homage to the one true God, but still in mecca. The christians also does the same thing in europe, rather abolishing the pagan practices, they just changes the meanings of it..
The arabs can continue their rites in mekka, just like the jews in jerusalem, the japanese in mt fuji, the indians in himalayas/gangga river and so forth.. Thus it is said Hajj / thanks giving feast to God is within months well known by each people.. (although it is not necessarily the same time and place for every people).
Do not dispute with them concerning the rites, but invite them to the one true God, The Maintainer Of All Universes.I think you got it the other way around. The pagan Arabs couldn't change the great reading to justify their pagan practices so they hijacked terms from the great reading and used them to describe their pagan practices. This is what I am pointing out so that people don't get fooled. If someone as knoweldgeable and enlightened as you can be fooled into saying something such as "still in Mecca" then we really need to show people the truth. The word "mecca"/destruction is precisely such word that has been hijacked and turned into the name of a town but it is clearly used as a common noun in the great reading. Here is the Yusufali translation
- And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Mecca after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
Here is the translation of 4824 using Classical Arabic dictionaries and the context of war from the passage to translate the common description "mecca"
- And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
This is an amazing observation. Besides discrediting paganism, it means that we can be 100% sure that the great reading is the preserved word of the god. The pagans couldn't even insert one word or change it to name the location of the pagan shrine they established. They were forced to hijack a clear common noun.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
The word "mecca"/destruction is precisely such word that has been hijacked and turned into the name of a town but it is clearly used as a common noun in the great reading. Here is the Yusufali translation
- And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Mecca after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
Here is the translation of 4824 using Classical Arabic dictionaries and the context of war from the passage to translate the common description "mecca"
- And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of destruction after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
This is an amazing observation. Besides discrediting paganism, it means that we can be 100% sure that the great reading is the preserved word of the god. The pagans couldn't even insert one word or change it to name the location of the pagan shrine they established. They were forced to hijack a clear common noun.
This is a very good observation. The root of the common noun "mekka" actually means failure or destruction. So, it makes perfect sense if the passage in 4824 is speaking about impending failure rather than a physical location. It's saying that even in the midst of failure or defeat, Allah still gave his people the victory over the disbelievers... Very good observation. I'm definately going to look more into this. This is certainly an eye-opener, especially in terms of traditional Islaam...
bravo bravo bravo
Peace,
Ahmad
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How common was the word Mecca, though? It never occurs elsewhere as a word used for destruction.
That doesn't mean to say that validates it as a holy location. Might still be a pun and it certainly isn't a statement of reverence.
I hate to sound like Cook & Crone, but do any of the whiny Christian sources from the time of the conquest of Jerusalem mention from where those dread Saraceans hail?
