Debate- what constitutes a marriage?
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Peace everyone,
In case of getting married to parent/guardian-protected girls (fatayaat), the permission of the parents/guardians is necessary also (425)
truthseeker salam
You are wrong in above mentioned assertion, Fatyat simply means young girls, there is nothing as parent protected, and what we are talking here in 4-25 is about the young girls belonging to Ma Malakat Amnakum, God is recommending that if you do not have the means to marry a Mohsinna, (a free lady from the beliving category or the same from the people of the book) then you may go ahead for a young mohsinna who must be a believer, from the MMA group. And to do that one must ask permission from her Masters, and in an other ayah , those Masters are being advised by Almighty, that if such a situation arise in regard to your MMa, He shall be very appreciative if you(masters) let them .
peace
siki
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Peace everyone,
In 425, the "fatayaat" are being contrasted with "mohsanaat". Mohsanaat are independent, so fatayaat have to be dependent. Dependent on whom? According to the context, they are dependent on their guardians. So they are dependent or guardian protected young girls.
In case of both mohsanaat and fatayaat, in order to marry them you have to first make them "ma malakat aymanukum"/that possessed by your oath. This is clear from 424 where all mohsanaat are forbidden except those mohsanaat that are MMA. That means, mohsanaat/independent women can only become legal once you have given an oath of marriage to them, hence you have to make an oath of marriage with a mohsana in order to marry her.
Ma malakat aymanukum = that possessed by your oath.
In case of "fatayaat", of course you have to make them your MMA by giving them an oath/proposal/commitment of marriage, just like mohsanaat, but in addition you also need their guardians/parents permission for marriage.
This has already been discussed many times on this forum in the past and readers can use the search function for the relevant threads. No further comments from me on this particular issue.
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Truthseeker
salam
NO brother, your understanding (of these terms) is probably based upon an article writen by brother Ayman.
His protected theory goes into disarray, when we test it through a detailed study of relevent terms in Quran. I had requested you earlier to go through couple of threads, but i guess you either did not, or may have given only a cursory scroll.Just to give you an example, If you think that MMA are someones that you extend marriage proposal, or the women that you are engaged to, then how do you explain this? (unless you think it is ok to do a detailed scrutiny of the private parts belonging to that young girl ,to whome you have extended a marriage proposal)
23-5,6 And who guard their private parts,Except from their wives(Azwajekum) or what their right hands possess(ma malakat amnakum),for them they are not to be blamed;
The above is just one example, I can quote many verses which would severly contradict your (basically ayman's) understaning.
In my opinion you have a very cursory and shallow understanding of this topic, but yet you give an impression as if you have thoroughly researched it.
Not only that , but you wana run away and hide into oblivision by saying "NO FURTHER COMMENTS FROM ME ON THIS ISSUE". Because, may be you wana shield your self to a face saving and pop up only if you come across a clue. I have seen you doing this couple of other times in other threads as well, this does not portray a learning attitude.
In nutshell, if you post garbage then please be ready to defend it , and if you can't, due to any reason, then my advise is "you only lurk around and educate yourself"
peace
siki
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Peace truthseeker11,
I believe I now have a good understanding of 2237.
2237 If you divorce them before having sexual intercourse with them, but you have already agreed to the dowry, then you must give half of what you have agreed, unless they forgive or the guardian over the marriage contract forgives. If you forgive, it is closer to awareness. Do not forget the favor between you; God is Seer over what you do.
It seems that "they" (women) and "the guardian over the marriage contract" have equal authority because the great reading says that either "they" (women) can waive the money that is owed to them or "the guardian over the marriage contract". This clearly indicates that there needn't be any witnesses to a marriage. I humbly believe that my understanding is further confirmed by the following verses
420-21 And if you wish to replace one wife instead of another, and you have given one of them a large amount, then do not take anything from it. Would you take it by falsehood while it is clearly a sin? And how can you take it when you have become intimate with each other, and the women have taken from you a strong covenant.
Perhaps the "strong covenant" is the marriage contract. We see in the above verses that women can also take the strong covenant from the men they marry, in other words, they don't need a witness to take such a covenant. Understanding women to be the ones to whom the vow of fidelity and support is made is in sync with the command to men to pay women dowries and in sync with the understanding that marriage is for the protection of women. Perhaps the purpose of a dowry is to be like a security deposit which a woman can use in case her man walks out on her.
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Peace truthseeker11,
I believe I now have a good understanding of 2237.
2237 If you divorce them before having sexual intercourse with them, but you have already agreed to the dowry, then you must give half of what you have agreed, unless they forgive or the guardian over the marriage contract forgives. If you forgive, it is closer to awareness. Do not forget the favor between you; God is Seer over what you do.
It seems that "they" (women) and "the guardian over the marriage contract" have equal authority because the great reading says that either "they" (women) can waive the money that is owed to them or "the guardian over the marriage contract". This clearly indicates that there needn't be any witnesses to a marriage. I humbly believe that my understanding is further confirmed by the following verses
420-21 And if you wish to replace one wife instead of another, and you have given one of them a large amount, then do not take anything from it. Would you take it by falsehood while it is clearly a sin? And how can you take it when you have become intimate with each other, and the women have taken from you a strong covenant.
Perhaps the "strong covenant" is the marriage contract. We see in the above verses that women can also take the strong covenant from the men they marry, in other words, they don't need a witness to take such a covenant. Understanding women to be the ones to whom the vow of fidelity and support is made is in sync with the command to men to pay women dowries and in sync with the understanding that marriage is for the protection of women. Perhaps the purpose of a dowry is to be like a security deposit which a woman can use in case her man walks out on her.
Your understanding is feeble, and your gay satanicangelicavatar advertises it. Then again, what would a gay man know about a holy marriage.
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Taking it back to basics, cultural traditions and civil law aside, what makes two people married in the eyes of God? In Western society where unmarried couples are faithful and are in serious long-term relationships and their respective friends and family know they are together and God of course can bear witness that they are together, could they be regarded as married religiously? Or are they considered fornicators? If 'marriage' comprises mutual consent, commitment, witnesses and notification of friends and family what fundamentally separates the above scenario from a marriage? I'd like to clarify that i'm not referring to the celebratory side to a marriage ie wedding. I'd be interested you hear your views on this. I know it may be controversial but I thought I would open it up for debate...
Unmarried couples both faithful and in long term relationships? Where? I thought being faithful was being faithful with the god in the long term by making a contract for two parties making a partnership involving both finances and responsibility of young people, no?
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Unmarried couples both faithful and in long term relationships?
Common law partnership. Wikipedia "Common-law marriage, sometimes called de facto marriage, informal marriage or marriage by habit and repute, is a form of interpersonal status which is legally recognized in some jurisdictions as a marriage even though no legally recognized marriage ceremony is performed or civil marriage contract is entered into or the marriage registered in a civil registry."
Where?
Most of the Western world.
I thought being faithful was being faithful with the god
Where does god come into this? Two unbelievers can be faithful to each other to death without a ceremony, witnesses, a registration, or certification.
in the long term by making a contract for two parties making a partnership involving both finances and responsibility of young people, no?
There are people that don't even think about this when they fall in love and get married.
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Interestingly enough, in traditional Christianity, you are not married, and should not live together or have sex until you have been through a religious wedding ceremony. The wedding ceremony is considered (by the Catholic Church) as one of the sacraments. And yet the early Christian religion accepted people that just announced they were together and married, and many popes, bishops etc had live-in girlfriends. A little hypocritical
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Taking it back to basics, cultural traditions and civil law aside, what makes two people married in the eyes of God? If 'marriage' comprises mutual consent, commitment, witnesses and notification of friends and family what fundamentally separates the above scenario from a marriage? I'd like to clarify that i'm not referring to the celebratory side to a marriage ie wedding. I'd be interested you hear your views on this. I know it may be controversial but I thought I would open it up for debate...
My friend and I were discussing this and we came to the conclusion that because we don't know for sure what is 'true', we should just marry in accordance with different ceremonies. Woohoo 50 (or so) weddings!
But to be serious, I know for sure that locally, the people here think civil marriage is not 'legal in the eyes of God' unlike one that was conducted in the Sunni way. There was a debate about it in the papers a couple of years ago. I used to think so too until I actually saw the ceremony itself and thought "Well, what's the big deal about it?". Actually, I really dislike the Sunni way and should I ever marry, I will never consent to that.
And I know this view is unpopular but I do not want my future spouse to convert to Islam just to marry. That's another thing; in the eyes of some people, the marriage is only 'legal' if they are of the same religion. There's a lot of folks in my country who convert just to get married and then of course that's just in name. Some may think it's 'true love' to give up your own beliefs just to marry another but I call bullshit because heck, why isn't the other person doing the same then. What makes their beliefs any truer?
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That's another thing; in the eyes of some people, the marriage is only 'legal' if they are of the same religion. There's a lot of folks in my country who convert just to get married and then of course that's just in name. Some may think it's 'true love' to give up your own beliefs just to marry another but I call bullshit because heck, why isn't the other person doing the same then. What makes their beliefs any truer?
Don't blame Islam for that. It exists in Christianity and Judaism too.
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Don't blame Islam for that. It exists in Christianity and Judaism too.
Oh I wasn't just talking about Islam though I started out with my personal thing. I don't know any Jews locally but I know of Christians who say that too. Majority are under 'other' though and they are the ones who usually end up converting to Islam/Christianity/whatever other religion.
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Oh I wasn't just talking about Islam though I started out with my personal thing. I don't know any Jews locally but I know of Christians who say that too. Majority are under 'other' though and they are the ones who usually end up converting to Islam/Christianity/whatever other religion.
Most religions say how tolerant they are of other beliefs, but their marriage rules show that they really are not.
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Not just that, their "getting into heaven" rules too. Or whatever their version of the afterlife.
Yes you are right. I had a fellow minister from one of the local Baptist churches (there are many here) tell me I was going to hell because I did not accept Jesus as my only saviour. I said to him that in the bible Jesus is mentioned as the saviour 5 times but God is mentioned as our ONLY saviour some 37 times, so who do you believe? He just kept on saying that I was going to hell, so I just said "OK, I'll see you there then".
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Yes you are right. I had a fellow minister from one of the local Baptist churches (there are many here) tell me I was going to hell because I did not accept Jesus as my only saviour. I said to him that in the bible Jesus is mentioned as the saviour 5 times but God is mentioned as our ONLY saviour some 37 times, so who do you believe? He just kept on saying that I was going to hell, so I just said "OK, I'll see you there then".
rotfl bravo good!
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Some may think it's 'true love' to give up your own beliefs just to marry another but I call bullshit because heck, why isn't the other person doing the same then. What makes their beliefs any truer?
If it really was "true love," neither parties would care about the other person's religious affiliations or lack thereof. A lot people will bring up the mental upbringing of children as if it's something they can control.
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I believe it involves giving doweries and signing a contract. Everything else is optional.
Compare that to Hislam where you cannot even date someone before marriage. You have to consult an imam (your god) and tell him you want to get married (in sunnism, it means using your penis on your wife in any manner as long as you don't insert it in the back hole) and then your god will get some unmarried girl and present her to you. You like the way she looks and in no time she is giving birth to a child.
Hail Satan. hail
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I believe it involves giving doweries and signing a contract. Everything else is optional.
Compare that to Hislam where you cannot even date someone before marriage. You have to consult an imam (your god) and tell him you want to get married (in sunnism, it means using your penis on your wife in any manner as long as you don't insert it in the back hole) and then your god will get some unmarried girl and present her to you. You like the way she looks and in no time she is giving birth to a child.
Hail Satan. hail
That does sound a little satanic